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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
    
 | | 11/20/2005 11:19 AM |
| | recovered topic 11734 | |
"Why am I all sticky and naked? Did I miss something fun?"
-Vindicated champion of Tordek, Dwarf Champion | |
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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 11/20/2005 11:19 AM |
| Read these glossary definitions: threaten, melee reach, adjacent. Also relevant: the subheading "Cover in Melee" under "attacks of opportunity" on page 14.
The short answer: yes, the creature with melee reach CAN take attacks of opportunity around a corner. Creatures that don't have melee reach CANNOT take attacks of opportunity around corners. | |
"Why am I all sticky and naked? Did I miss something fun?"
-Vindicated champion of Tordek, Dwarf Champion | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 11/20/2005 2:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fry
Read these glossary definitions: threaten, melee reach, adjacent. Also relevant: the subheading "Cover in Melee" under "attacks of opportunity" on page 14.
The short answer: yes, the creature with melee reach CAN take attacks of opportunity around a corner. Creatures that don't have melee reach CANNOT take attacks of opportunity around corners.
Just to clarify no creatures can make AOO unless they are adjacent even if they have Melee Reach. I know Fry knows this I just think his explanation could be be confusing. Cover in Melee is specified as "A creature can’t make an attack of opportunity if the defender has melee cover against it." Thus negating any AOOs as Melee Reach specifies "This ability does not allow a creature to threaten squares that are not adjacent or make attacks of opportunity against enemies that are not adjacent." In normal melee combat cover only adds a +4AC to the defender.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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| DDM Australian Champion 2005
psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 11/20/2005 6:21 PM |
| To clarify the question:
OOLO
BBXX
BBXO
L=medium creature.
B=large creature with Melee Reach 2.
X=wall.
O=Nothing.
So, can B, who is adjacent to L yet hitting around a corner, hit L without L benefiting from cover?
If so, when L routs, will B get an attack-of-opportunity against him as he is adjacent?
Now, are the above true in the situation below, which is identical except for the addition of creature M? Can BB still attack L as before?:
OMLO
BBXX
BBXO
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Champion of the Prestige Class where mages focus on telekenesis and start throwing people into the ceiling and uber stuff like that.
Desirer of a Commander Effect in CG that grants Sidestep to followers with a ranged attack. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 11/20/2005 7:24 PM |
| One other point: unless he's benefitting from a Commander Effect or other special circumstance, if the Large creature routs the Medium, he doesn't get an AoO regardless of reach or cover considerations.
See page 20, "An enemy that has just caused a creature to rout doesn't also get an attack of opportunity against that creature that turn". | | | |
| DDM Australian Champion 2005
psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 11/20/2005 10:03 PM |
| Hey all, thanks for your help!
So, to summarise all the rules goodies in this thread:
A creature with melee reach 2 ignores cover when hitting around a corner.
Even with melee reach 2, a creature may only make attacks of opportunity against adjacent enemies.
A creature may not make an attack of opportunity against a creature it has caused to route.
Yay! | |
Champion of the Prestige Class where mages focus on telekenesis and start throwing people into the ceiling and uber stuff like that.
Desirer of a Commander Effect in CG that grants Sidestep to followers with a ranged attack. | |
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Equilibrium
Sneak
95 Posts
| | 11/21/2005 3:02 AM |
| Thankyou, so a creature with melee reach 2 is considered adjacent to a creature around a corner, even though it is using melee reach 2 to hit it, hmm just dont seem to sit right but i will be happy to play with that ruleing.
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bigfruits
Sneak
58 Posts
| | 11/21/2005 8:34 AM |
| check out guys clarifications for melee reach and cover. theres alot that i was doing wrong before i read this section of his webpage.
http://homepage.mac.com/guyf/DDM/CoverVsMeleeReach.html | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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XenoZephyr
Underboss
1083 Posts
| | 11/21/2005 9:20 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Equilibrium
Thankyou, so a creature with melee reach 2 is considered adjacent to a creature around a corner, even though it is using melee reach 2 to hit it, hmm just dont seem to sit right but i will be happy to play with that ruleing.
I'd like to try to sum this up for you a bit different.
1) Creatures next to each other, including diagonal, are adjacent to each other (Melee Reach doesn't make you adjacent when you physically are not).
2) Adjacent creatures provoke AoO EXCEPT when they have Melee Cover provided by being kitty korner around a wall (like in psistef's diagrm)
3) Creatues with Melee Reach use the rules for Ranged Cover NOT Melee Cover.
4) Ranged attacks do not have Ranged Cover from around a wall (FAQ on Wotc site has good diagrams of this).
So, in this case. Both figures are Adjacent to each other. The creature with Melee Reach 2 can attack the creature around the wall with no Melee Cover penalty because he uses the rules for a Ranged Attack (A creature without Melee Reach 2+ would pay the +4 AC penalty). If either of these creatures move, NEITHER figures gets an Attack of Opportunity.
Definately check out Guy's clarifications like bigfruits said and also the FAQ on the Wotc site, I think they have probably every conceivable situation between the two.
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| DDM Australian Champion 2005
psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 11/21/2005 5:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XenoZephyr
If either of these creatures move, NEITHER figures gets an Attack of Opportunity.
Is this true though? I thought the creature with melee reach two would get an attack of opportunity? | |
Champion of the Prestige Class where mages focus on telekenesis and start throwing people into the ceiling and uber stuff like that.
Desirer of a Commander Effect in CG that grants Sidestep to followers with a ranged attack. | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 11/21/2005 6:08 PM |
| That is not true. In this diagram:
OOLO
BBXX
BBXO
Assuming that B has MR, then B would get an Attack of Opportunity on L if L moved. Assuming L does not have Reach, B could move without incurring the AoO.
Relevant rules:
Under Threatening, page 12:
Even when a creature isn’t actually attacking an enemy, it can limit the actions of adjacent enemies. An active creature threatens all squares adjacent to it.
Effects of Threatening: A creature can make an attack of opportunity (see page 14) against (see page 14) against an enemy creature that moves out of a square it threatens.
Under Attacks of Opportunity, page 14:
Cover in Melee: A creature can’t make an attack of opportunity if the defender has melee cover against it.
From the Glossary, page 34 (emphasis added):
Melee Reach [#]: This creature can make melee attacks against enemies that are up to the listed number of squares away. Use the ranged attack rules (see page 15) to determine whether the attacker has line of sight to the target and whether the target has cover.
When determining whether this creature can make a melee attack, count diagonals in the normal way. (A creature with Melee Reach 2 can’t attack an enemy in a square 2 diagonals away.)
This ability does not allow a creature to threaten squares that are not adjacent or make attacks of opportunity against enemies that are not adjacent. Nor does it allow a charging or rushing creature to stop before it is adjacent to the enemy it is rushing or charging. A creature using Melee Reach to attack at a distance does not create a flanking situation. | |
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