Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
    
 | | 11/24/2005 1:40 AM |
| | recovered topic 11908 | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 11/24/2005 1:40 AM |
| And there goes the final nail in the coffin of ranged bands . . .
Very interesting map though, and a definite counter to Dark Naga bands. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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DDM Australian Champion 2005
psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 11/24/2005 6:54 AM |
| I can see a lot of instances where someone playing a Beholder will be praying to win map initiative, and use the Drow Outpost rather than their opponent's Hellspike.
With smoke, teleportation squares and the general closeness of the maps, I really can't see archer bands ever having a chance again. | |
Champion of the Prestige Class where mages focus on telekenesis and start throwing people into the ceiling and uber stuff like that.
Desirer of a Commander Effect in CG that grants Sidestep to followers with a ranged attack. | |
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Goldmoon
Sergeant
986 Posts
| | 11/24/2005 8:35 AM |
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Yap range units will be a problem but I think smoke also offer a challange for command and rally as mentioned. It will be quite difficult if you have only one commander.
If you been forced to engage your opponent across the smoke, you will need to cross back to rally and routing units... | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10445 Posts
United States
| | 11/24/2005 8:38 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gristlemane
And there goes the final nail in the coffin of ranged bands . . .
Very interesting map though, and a definite counter to Dark Naga bands.
When I first read your post I thought "nah, there are plenty of ranged bands that work really well with some other maps." But, then I realized how devastating it would be to take a ranged band and a good map to a tournament and then lose a couple of crucial first initiatives and have to play on this nasty, smoky map. I think you're right. I can't think of a good reason to bring an archer-heavy band to a tournament with this map out there. It's worse than the Treasure Room tile.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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memphisto
Warrior
213 Posts
| | 11/24/2005 9:08 AM |
| | Can someone point out to me the 6 areas Rikka -- referred to in the article by Jason -- can utilize her Waylay ability with? I see the four victory areas, but there are another four start areas, and I thought start areas weren't considered "feature tiles"... am I missing something? | |
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 11/24/2005 9:20 AM |
| | I was kinda wondering about that myself.... | |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.--Dylan Thomas
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 11/24/2005 9:32 AM |
| I won a match in the DDM League at GenCon SoCal because of the smoke.. I kept my non-fearless units in command (range / sight).. but his AoK was fighting Marut.. when Marut hit him the 2nd time, he failed morale because he was OOC and ran very very far away.
Its an interesting piece of terrain.. I will say that. but remember that if you bring the fight to the other side of the smoke, you might not be able to rally anyone that fails a MC. Its a double edged sword.. and sometimes its gonna be a double edged BASTARD sword.
I make myself laugh if no one else. | |
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2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 11/24/2005 10:10 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by memphisto
Can someone point out to me the 6 areas Rikka -- referred to in the article by Jason -- can utilize her Waylay ability with? I see the four victory areas, but there are another four start areas, and I thought start areas weren't considered "feature tiles"... am I missing something?
Whoops! I screwed up, and counted the start areas. That does cut down on the amount of area Rikka can get to in a single move, though it's still a fairly large chunk of the board.
I don't imagine anyone is working at WotC today, but I'll ask Steve to correct my mistake on Monday. Thanks for pointing it out! [:)] | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 11/24/2005 10:30 AM |
| While I do agree that this map will screw over any warband that needs a ranged assault for either spells or ranged attacks I also think it's interesting. Playing on it I have found as others have already expressed routing to the other side of the smoke is a pain. Secondary commanders are probably a good idea on this map because of that alone. I had to chase down Rikka the other day so she could rally.
Personally I hope that most tournaments will have a static map throughout rather than a plethora of various maps you could end up on. It's very difficult to make a perfectly well rounded warband that will kick ass on every map against every other warband idea. If I knew ahead of time that I was playing specifically on Hellspike the entire tourney that'd be at least reasonable. Plus lessen the chance that I'd be totally hosed because of a map that benefitted the opponent while screwed me up.
R~ | |
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memphisto
Warrior
213 Posts
| | 11/24/2005 10:38 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
quote:
Originally posted by memphisto
Can someone point out to me the 6 areas Rikka -- referred to in the article by Jason -- can utilize her Waylay ability with? I see the four victory areas, but there are another four start areas, and I thought start areas weren't considered "feature tiles"... am I missing something?
Whoops! I screwed up, and counted the start areas. That does cut down on the amount of area Rikka can get to in a single move, though it's still a fairly large chunk of the board.
I don't imagine anyone is working at WotC today, but I'll ask Steve to correct my mistake on Monday. Thanks for pointing it out! [:)]
No problem. Very nice article, by the way. Interesting your pointing out the Archmage's ability to fire off spells from deep in the spikestones. It's like built-in screeners! | |
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neilasaurus
Sneak
134 Posts
| | 11/24/2005 11:31 AM |
| Those aren't spike stones, although they may appear to be, they are labeled difficult terrain on the map.
The spike stones are on the mushroom map. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/24/2005 12:19 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
quote:
Originally posted by memphisto
Can someone point out to me the 6 areas Rikka -- referred to in the article by Jason -- can utilize her Waylay ability with? I see the four victory areas, but there are another four start areas, and I thought start areas weren't considered "feature tiles"... am I missing something?
Whoops! I screwed up, and counted the start areas. That does cut down on the amount of area Rikka can get to in a single move, though it's still a fairly large chunk of the board.
I don't imagine anyone is working at WotC today, but I'll ask Steve to correct my mistake on Monday. Thanks for pointing it out! [:)]
Alright that's enough Fenris. We tolerate no mistakes. You no longer deserve that trophy; please mail it to me immediately.
And some cash. Daddy needs to buy shoes for the kids ...
[:p]
Can you give us any insight as to future articles? Are you going to be reviewing all / most of the maps?
Secondary question, how in-tune are you with the 500 point game? | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 11/24/2005 2:37 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
When I first read your post I thought "nah, there are plenty of ranged bands that work really well with some other maps." But, then I realized how devastating it would be to take a ranged band and a good map to a tournament and then lose a couple of crucial first initiatives and have to play on this nasty, smoky map.
Yes, and unfortunately ranged warbands basically top out at commander 4. I can't imagine playing the Nentyar and then having to deal with this map in addition to bad saves. CE should get a little advantage by playing Ryld, and the lawfuls have a bunch of high commander options. I don't think Snake Eyes does as well in tournaments where you roll Init for maps, but at least it's not totally screwed by any maps either.
Hopefully they will errata the Satyr to let it use the Init bonus when selecting maps. That at least will give ranged CG bands a slightly better chance of avoiding an auto loss on Hellspike.
With the Exception of Queen Peregrine's Tomb, which I don't think has enough choke points, have we seen any archer friendly maps? Maybe we will see one with Wardrums. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 11/25/2005 10:42 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Alright that's enough Fenris. We tolerate no mistakes. You no longer deserve that trophy; please mail it to me immediately.
And some cash. Daddy needs to buy shoes for the kids ...
[:p]
Can you give us any insight as to future articles? Are you going to be reviewing all / most of the maps?
Secondary question, how in-tune are you with the 500 point game?
Heheh... yeah, ok, the trophy is in the mail. I umm, forgot to use DC, so uhh, I hope it gets there ok. [)]
I don't know what articles I will be writing in the future, just that there will be some. The three Hellspike Prison articles are the only specific ones we had agreed on at this point. I would like to do more map reviews, though. And I have some other ideas for stuff I'd like to write, we'll see what ends up getting the green light. | |
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2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 11/25/2005 10:48 AM |
| Oh, and 500pt games: I am not up on the metagame in 500 really at all. I didn't like how there was so little variety in which huges got used back in the GoL days, so I pretty much stopped playing 500pt. I read the tourney reports of people playing 5x Beholder and all that, but never really got back into it after GoL.
However, now that we have a whole bunch of new Epics to try out, I'm excited to get back into it. Also it seems that 100pt is not going to be a format that's supported as much, so it's going to be 200/500 instead. (That's not insider info, btw, I think I read it here or at the WotC boards). | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 11/26/2005 1:14 AM |
| Not really, no. I think for the forseeable future I'm going to be picking maps based on gimmicks. For example, I want to try out some variation of:
Dark Naga
Trog Captain
Grell
Xorn x 3
Trog
Now, that's gimmicky, and probably isn't going to work too well, but it's going to be fun as hell when it does work. But to have a chance at assault points, it needs to be played on a map like Mushroom Cavern where speed 4 burrow is enough for first-round points.
With no really "important" tournaments on the horizon for a while, I'm going to enjoy playing some more wacky gimmicky stuff for now. [:)] | |
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2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 11/26/2005 1:20 AM |
| | Oh, and not to drag this back topic or anything, but the mistakes in the article have been fixed. Thanks to those who pointed them out! {:)] | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 11/26/2005 9:47 AM |
| I know its fun when Fenris makes a mistake - but not a single person found my joke funny?
/runs off crying | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/26/2005 10:37 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
Not really, no. I think for the forseeable future I'm going to be picking maps based on gimmicks. For example, I want to try out some variation of:
Dark Naga
Trog Captain
Grell
Xorn x 3
Trog
Now, that's gimmicky, and probably isn't going to work too well, but it's going to be fun as hell when it does work. But to have a chance at assault points, it needs to be played on a map like Mushroom Cavern where speed 4 burrow is enough for first-round points.
With no really "important" tournaments on the horizon for a while, I'm going to enjoy playing some more wacky gimmicky stuff for now. [:)]
Hah ... I been chatting up the Vargouille / Duergar gimmick. It amuses me the amount of creatures available to LE that are immune to electricity and paralysis. | |
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Urban Druid
Warrior
253 Posts
| | 11/27/2005 1:16 PM |
| | A question regarding smoke terrain: if a follower and its commander are on opposite sides of the smoke, would they both have to have blindsight for the follower to be under command, or just one of them? If just one, then which one...? | |
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 11/27/2005 5:56 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Urban Druid
A question regarding smoke terrain: if a follower and its commander are on opposite sides of the smoke, would they both have to have blindsight for the follower to be under command, or just one of them? If just one, then which one...?
If they're within six squares of each other, neither needs Blindsight - smoke doesn't block line of effect the way walls do, so you can trace CFX through smoke just fine. (Similarly, if you could target a creature on one side of smoke with a fireball, creatures in the radius on the other side would still be affected.)
Since the rules for Command in the rulebook note that one of the criteria for being under command is for a unit to have line of sight to a commander, I would suspect that the commander never needs Blindsight, but the followers always would (again, if they're not within six squares).
--
Pauper | |
Champion of the War Wizard of Cormyr | |
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BudLeiser
Warrior
218 Posts
| | 11/27/2005 7:42 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Pauper
quote:
Originally posted by Urban Druid
A question regarding smoke terrain: if a follower and its commander are on opposite sides of the smoke, would they both have to have blindsight for the follower to be under command, or just one of them? If just one, then which one...?
If they're within six squares of each other, neither needs Blindsight - smoke doesn't block line of effect the way walls do, so you can trace CFX through smoke just fine. (Similarly, if you could target a creature on one side of smoke with a fireball, creatures in the radius on the other side would still be affected.)
Since the rules for Command in the rulebook note that one of the criteria for being under command is for a unit to have line of sight to a commander, I would suspect that the commander never needs Blindsight, but the followers always would (again, if they're not within six squares).
--
Pauper
The question was already asked on wizards boards because one rule says for the commander to have LOS and the other says for the creature to have LOS to the commander. (I think it was glossary vs commander rules)
No idea if Guy answered it on the wizards boards or not.
Edit: Found the thread Guy is asking R&D for the answer. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=541132
Guy Fullerton:Interesting; I hadn't noticed the conflict between the paragraph on page 9 and the diagram text on the same page. I'll have to check with R&D. | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 11/28/2005 10:08 AM |
| I'm not sure that predominantly ranged units were ever a viable contender...
However, the real story of this map (IMO) is the effect of Soth/Beholder. If you are facing Soth/Beholder, and you lose first round init, you are getting BLOWED UP! I know Fenris mentioned this in his article, but I think it's huge. The addition of that central column/wall thing will allow Soth to maneuver to use the blast to full effectiveness.
Even with the blockage of LOS for the Beholder, he can still guard both of the opponents' victory areas, and with the addition of some Kobold Miners, you can get a nice jump on assault points, and wait for your opponent to come to you.
So, with the inclusion of this map, and the threat of facing Soth/Beholder, I think that stock goes up even more for Couatl bands (for obvious reasons) and bands with wandering monsters, because they can be used as the nearest target, to hopefully decoy Soth. | |
Rhane
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