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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
    
Southeast PA
 | | 11/29/2005 11:28 AM |
| | recovered topic 12098 | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 11/29/2005 11:28 AM |
| | I was wondering that as well. Is the LSD a forgotten piece or is everyone just playing with the new stuff? | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 11:42 AM |
| I think its more from people just wanting to try out the new stuff.
Duergar Champs are immune to paralysis, but they still gotta fear the potential 35 Cold damage. While the silver is less of a threat to Helmed Horrors and Chraals, those LE dudes are no threat at all to the Silver. It can ignore them and go hunting after softer prey.
The Giths are an interesting matchup. They lose out somewhat on their speed advantage, and the Gith player better be VERY careful where he puts his Young Master. A failed save vs. either breath weapon (8 or less if I do the math right), and he could be in a world of hurt.
I think the LSD will continue to be something that has to be considered. | |
Rhane
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10445 Posts
United States
| | 11/29/2005 12:18 PM |
| I have found that two LSDs, a Couatl, and some hitters (two AoK are nice, epic Rikka ain't bad) make for an excellent 500-point band, even with all the new epics out there. I think that the LSD is being pushed up to 500-point play.
In 200-point play, even with only 8 figures, I'm not so sure it can do what it once could (many of the reasons have already been stated). The Couatl only does the LSD so much good in 200-points, because snake's swiftness ain't that handy against critters with DR, and the orbs "only" do so much.
Dave | |
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 12:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by rhane
I think its more from people just wanting to try out the new stuff.
Duergar Champs are immune to paralysis, but they still gotta fear the potential 35 Cold damage. While the silver is less of a threat to Helmed Horrors and Chraals, those LE dudes are no threat at all to the Silver. It can ignore them and go hunting after softer prey.
The Giths are an interesting matchup. They lose out somewhat on their speed advantage, and the Gith player better be VERY careful where he puts his Young Master. A failed save vs. either breath weapon (8 or less if I do the math right), and he could be in a world of hurt.
I think the LSD will continue to be something that has to be considered.
Duergar champs still save at +10 vs that cold breath weapon and at +15/+10 they are a threat to wear him down, and the fact they often travel in 2's and 3's make it worse. That I wouldn't let you get more than 2 in a breath at a time. As for the helmed horror, he is a threat as he isn't going to miss much and pounds for 15 a hit (unless its LSD+couatl, and then im going after the Couatl anyway).
Archmage is another LSD munching threat that is always out there. It just seems the more I think about it, the more the cards are finally getting stacked against the LSD. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 1:13 PM |
| Dunno about the Archmage; never had a problem with the LSD and Archmage.
LSD's biggest threat is the multiple hitter bands that can reliable wear down the beast; it certainly did take a hit with the LE beater+gauth route.
Remember, LSDs come in three basic varieties:
Couatl + CoY - Some buffing, elemental resistances, sonic, etc.
Cleric of Order + Barb Mercs - Buff the LSD then play aggressive, paralyze-and-beat-down variant
Cleric of Dol Arrah - Resistance through healing.
The Couatl + CoY is probably the most versatile; the CoDA band would rely on 2-square wide choke points where the CoDA can keep away from other hitters. Remember the CoDA has some nice outsider hate in addition to the 2x30-point heals.
So, there are some more bad matchups but in general the number of competitive bands have basically doubled ... so a few extra bad matchups don't constitute a death knell in my opinion.
And it CERTAINLY still has a home in 500. | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1364 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 1:31 PM |
| This is only tangentially related, but I did a DDM demo at my FLGS on Saturday. For simplicity's sake, I wanted to use small warbands, but to attract the eyes of customers, I wanted to use visually appealing minis. I ended up pitting an LSD, BPM, and two Gold Dwarf Soldiers against a Balor, Eye of Gruumsh, Orc Champ, and Cleric of Gruumsh. Those were fun match ups, and they were pretty evenly matched.
Okay, this post doesn't really add to the discussion, but I thought you guys might pull something useful out of it. | | | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 1:37 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Dunno about the Archmage; never had a problem with the LSD and Archmage.
LSD's biggest threat is the multiple hitter bands that can reliable wear down the beast; it certainly did take a hit with the LE beater+gauth route.
Remember, LSDs come in three basic varieties:
Couatl + CoY - Some buffing, elemental resistances, sonic, etc.
Cleric of Order + Barb Mercs - Buff the LSD then play aggressive, paralyze-and-beat-down variant
Cleric of Dol Arrah - Resistance through healing.
The Couatl + CoY is probably the most versatile; the CoDA band would rely on 2-square wide choke points where the CoDA can keep away from other hitters. Remember the CoDA has some nice outsider hate in addition to the 2x30-point heals.
So, there are some more bad matchups but in general the number of competitive bands have basically doubled ... so a few extra bad matchups don't constitute a death knell in my opinion.
And it CERTAINLY still has a home in 500.
Ok death knell may have been extreme :P
Your point is good though, I think that the most interesting aspect of these recent sets is just the sheer number of competitive bands now. pre-angelfire the defintion of tier 1 was often given by how many bad matchups it had. I want it to be March dang it! I want qualifier season to get here. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 11/29/2005 2:00 PM |
| | Out of curiosity: How many people have seen an LSD win an 8+ player tourney since Angelfire came out? | |
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frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 5:46 PM |
| | I think the Medium Silver Dragon is a good alternative to the LSD that people are trying out too. I have seen quite a few MSD builds... I like the MSD because for the cheaper cost you can still get a good dragon with cold and paralysis breaths, and have plenty of points to add other figures. Whereas with the LSD, you have the LSD a commander and basically all you have room for is fodder. Alot more options with the MSD. my 2 coppers | |
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Thenameless
Warlord
11730 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 11/30/2005 12:21 AM |
| | The LSD may not be as strong in "kill 'em all" type games as it used to be, but in a 1 hour tournament game, it's still going to be a really tough 122 points to get. Still one of the best options for denial-type players. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 9:49 AM |
| We haven't seen much of the LSD locally since we switched to 8 figs/Maps. I have a theory that explans this. The switch to 8 figures essentially gives a warband 12 points to play with while still maxing activations. For the LSD band, this doesn't help dramatically. Adding an Aramil or another Barb Merc is nice but not much better.
Some other strong bands, however, were able to dramatically augment their striking power with those extra 12 points. For example: what was Lich Necro + 2 hitters (OC, OR, etc) + CS and good fodder can now become LN + 3 hitters + CS + worse fodder. Adding an extra hitter is huge. Inspired Frenzy (2 FBs) in 12-15 activations can be come Triple Frenzy (3 FBs) in activations, albeit losing the heavy activation advantage. CE Quad with a Teifling as backup commander in 12 can become Quad with an Orc Druid as backup commander in 8 activations with more hitting power due to Snake Swiftness and wolves as vp grabbers. There are more examples
Basically, the way the point cost breakpoints shake out, some bands were able to add an extra copy of one of their most effective units (by downgrading some fodder), while the LSD band could not.
I see a similar problem with LRB as well. While one of the top bands in its day, the extra 12 points dont cross a breakpoint that makes it much better. Swapping out a Drow Sergeant for a Tiefling is nice, but not as nice as adding a third FB!
In a smaller point, the move to maps probably hurts the Dragons a bit since they don't have the chance to hem their enemies in with Mushroom Tangles, a tactic which formerly greatly enhanced their effectiveness.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 10:13 AM |
| Not to mention the increase in flying assasins who can nerf the LSDs support.
It is still a strong piece but I think it needs some different low-cost support options once the move to maps really happens. Speed 9 plus a cone is a heck of an engagement distance ... all on a practically fearless 150 HP beast.
I think large figures in general are at a disadvantage now. The biggest problem for the LSD has always been LOTS of enemy hitters ... and now folks are running four and sometimes five hitter bands from just about every faction ... or three FBs ... that's alot of flanking and one eventually dead dragon. | |
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Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 11/30/2005 11:48 AM |
| | Multiple LSDs will still work in 500pt play. | |
They just don't know what's good in life...Conan, tell them what is good in life.
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Thenameless
Warlord
11730 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 11/30/2005 12:48 PM |
| lynchpt,
That was an enlightening essay about the move from 12 activations to 8, hurting the LSD. I think your theory is correct. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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swoper
Sneak
54 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 1:27 PM |
| If the meta game changes based on what is new or currently popular, than that is a good thing. If the game changes because the old pieces are no longer competative, than we have an issue where the old players become jaded by the fact that they have to continue purchasing minis to stay competitive.
Are there any more competitive warbands based on Harbinger/Dragoneye pieces? I would be interested in what folks feel is a tier one piece, and how many there are in each set.
Harbinger 4 - Elf Pyro, Drow Cleric, Human Black Guard, Teifling Captain
Dragoneye 6 - PDK, Urthok, Eye of Gruumish, Large Red, Ravager, Red Samerai
Archfiends 6 - LSD, Clay Golem, Drizzt, Gauth, Snig, Orc Champ
Giants of Legend 5 - Soth, Lich, Young Master (newly), Drider (was) Insp Marshal
Aberrations 4 - Crow SHaman, Frenzied B., HEBI, Green Dragon
Deathknell 5 - Couatl, Greenfang, Centaur Hero, Beholder, Zombie White
Angelfire 7 - Cleric of DolA, Justice Archon, Arch Mage, Ulmo, Chraal, Efreeti, Orog
Underdark 8 - Artemis, Death Slaad,Naga, Duergar Champ, Giza Monk, Helmed Horro, Wiz Tactician, Rikka.
Maybe its just my imagination, but the last two sets seem to really be competition heavy.
Swoper | |
I've got a lot of Minis, okay, so lets just leave it at that... | |
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Boomerry
Skirmisher
28 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 1:34 PM |
| | @Swoper: I agreed with you about the old players becoming jaded, that would be a problem. However, I like all of the new tournament-playable pieces that are being released. It was always frustrating to me to see all of those cool minis in the older sets, but never being able to use them in a competitive warband. | |
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 1:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by swoper
If the meta game changes based on what is new or currently popular, than that is a good thing. If the game changes because the old pieces are no longer competative, than we have an issue where the old players become jaded by the fact that they have to continue purchasing minis to stay competitive.
Are there any more competitive warbands based on Harbinger/Dragoneye pieces? I would be interested in what folks feel is a tier one piece, and how many there are in each set.
Harbinger 4 - Elf Pyro, Drow Cleric, Human Black Guard, Teifling Captain
Dragoneye 6 - PDK, Urthok, Eye of Gruumish, Large Red, Ravager, Red Samerai
Archfiends 6 - LSD, Clay Golem, Drizzt, Gauth, Snig, Orc Champ
Giants of Legend 5 - Soth, Lich, Young Master (newly), Drider (was) Insp Marshal
Aberrations 4 - Crow SHaman, Frenzied B., HEBI, Green Dragon
Deathknell 5 - Couatl, Greenfang, Centaur Hero, Beholder, Zombie White
Angelfire 7 - Cleric of DolA, Justice Archon, Arch Mage, Ulmo, Chraal, Efreeti, Orog
Underdark 8 - Artemis, Death Slaad,Naga, Duergar Champ, Giza Monk, Helmed Horro, Wiz Tactician, Rikka.
Maybe its just my imagination, but the last two sets seem to really be competition heavy.
Swoper
Pretty good list, though it leaves off the all important fodder figures and things like Greycloaks, Orc warriors, elf warriors, xephs, etc. Take that list and go look at Jesse and Chris's toolkits, see how it stacks up. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 1:52 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by swoper
If the meta game changes based on what is new or currently popular, than that is a good thing. If the game changes because the old pieces are no longer competative, than we have an issue where the old players become jaded by the fact that they have to continue purchasing minis to stay competitive.
Are there any more competitive warbands based on Harbinger/Dragoneye pieces? I would be interested in what folks feel is a tier one piece, and how many there are in each set.
Harbinger 4 - Elf Pyro, Drow Cleric, Human Black Guard, Teifling Captain
Dragoneye 6 - PDK, Urthok, Eye of Gruumish, Large Red, Ravager, Red Samerai
Archfiends 6 - LSD, Clay Golem, Drizzt, Gauth, Snig, Orc Champ
Giants of Legend 5 - Soth, Lich, Young Master (newly), Drider (was) Insp Marshal
Aberrations 4 - Crow SHaman, Frenzied B., HEBI, Green Dragon
Deathknell 5 - Couatl, Greenfang, Centaur Hero, Beholder, Zombie White
Angelfire 7 - Cleric of DolA, Justice Archon, Arch Mage, Ulmo, Chraal, Efreeti, Orog
Underdark 8 - Artemis, Death Slaad,Naga, Duergar Champ, Giza Monk, Helmed Horro, Wiz Tactician, Rikka.
Maybe its just my imagination, but the last two sets seem to really be competition heavy.
While the last two sets may arguably have more competitive figures, none of them are really straight-up "improvements" on the older figures. We're getting new pieces that do new things, as opposed to simply doing the same things better.
Also, I expect that playability of specific figures will continue to wax and wane as new figures are released. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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aron1
Sergeant
415 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 2:04 PM |
| Has anyone tried LSD paired with Half-Orc Paladin or BPM for the extra 5 melee damage? Yes, they're both slow and it will take them a few rounds of double moves to catch up to the LSD for the command effect to be useful, but they're not as fragile as the CoO, CoY, or Coautl, which seem to be the other current popular commanders in LSD bands.
For instance, LSD, HOP, and Mialee for 176 points seems like a good way to have the LSD doing 50 melee damage on a full attack (that won't be reduced by DR), paired with a non-squishy commander who can even heal the LSD a bit. | |
Champion of the Thoqqua | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 2:50 PM |
| Hm, it seems to me that the 'aggro LSD' band, with LSD + CoO + a few barb mercs + filler becomes rather nastier as it can now become:
LSD
Cleric of Order
Barbarian Mercenary x5 or 6
Mialee if you only use 5 of em
Also, often times the LSD was operating at less than 12 activations before, so it still should see a relative gain in activation advantage if nothing else.
For me the main problem with the LSD is it is boring to play. | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 3:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Hm, it seems to me that the 'aggro LSD' band, with LSD + CoO + a few barb mercs + filler becomes rather nastier as it can now become:
LSD
Cleric of Order
Barbarian Mercenary x5 or 6
Mialee if you only use 5 of em
Also, often times the LSD was operating at less than 12 activations before, so it still should see a relative gain in activation advantage if nothing else.
For me the main problem with the LSD is it is boring to play.
But that version of the aggro LSD is only effective versus a CE beater and Frenzy heavy metagame. The extra Barb Mercs would be completely useless against the Helmed Horrors, Gith Monks, Duergar Champs, Death Slaads, etc that we see here on a weekly basis.
Coincidentally, three of the above pieces (not Gith Monks) are able to take down an LSD when they are in packs of 3. Or they can easily kill all the other pieces in the LSD band The environment is not friendly to the LSD currently. Maybe a Silver Shujenga who costs 12 points and has one use of Bull's Strength he can cast on Silver Dragons will help...
And yes, I think the boring nature of playing the LSD does not help it in it's quest for table time.
Pat Lynch
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Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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Mook_Farchings
Sneak
172 Posts
Salt Lake City
| | 11/30/2005 6:46 PM |
| What about dual Med Silver Dragons?
Doubling up on breath weapons, flight, speed and the new pieces we have seems like it has promise.
Has anyone tried it? | |
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Sunderland
Skirmisher
47 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 1:12 AM |
| | Played against it twice the other day. Once with Marut, Couatl, 2x JA, and once with Dark Naga, Gauth, 2x Duergar champ, 1x Chraal. The cones are annoying as hell, but it still has a lack of damage output, and there are more figs immune to paralysis now that are also playable competitively. Marut, duergars and chraal are unfazed, and there is no doubt in my mind you will see them. | |
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Teach
Sneak
140 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 2:26 AM |
| Especially with all the Giths running around, people are going to be looking for pieces that are immune to stun and therefore also likely immune to paralysis. I think the MSD's breath weapons is just too weak (too little damage/too low of DC's) to be able to replace the LSD. That's not to say it doesn't have a place in any band, but you really can't count on teh paralysis taking down much. It can't really be the centerpiece of a band like the LSD is.
We'll see, I still like the MSD, but not as much as I like the LSD.
And to get back to the topic, I agree with people who are saying that the LSD will make a strong showing in 8 figure bands. Even with all the immune to paralysis pieces out there. | |
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scifirules
Sergeant
354 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 4:37 PM |
| One really bad matchup for 200-point LSD bands that I've seen are Sword Archon + Mounted Paladin warbands. Both have high saves, are very likely to hit even a buffed AC 26, and are bringing down the Dragon's HP in increments of 25. With 150 HP, the LSD can only take six 25 damage attacks, and that's not counting criticals or the Paladin's powerful charge ability.
I played against one of these bands with a traditional LSD band (y'know: Cleric of Order, Barbarian Mercs, etc.), and was slaughtered in under four rounds. [B)] | |
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