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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
    
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 10:30 AM |
| I said it before...great write-up. Thanx for taking the time to edit it and re-publish in its own thread.
Gotta keep you blushing. | |
Rhane
"The focus is sharp in the city..."
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 10:38 AM |
| Aye, great write up - Im gonna guess you have included this in the sticky thread already.
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Minis... Serious Business
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ickthegreat
Warrior
291 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 11:40 AM |
| this is great write up. as this bieng something i am not every good at, this is and well be great help
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trades pending: (0)
everything is perfectly going out of control
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Avatar of the Tank
Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 11/30/2005 11:45 AM |
| | Very nice Chris. Keep up the great work. | |
They just don't know what's good in life...Conan, tell them what is good in life.
To rip the boosters. To count the minis spilled out before you, and to hear the indifference of the women... | |
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Kissmykiester
Sergeant
525 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 12:51 PM |
| | Very nicely done, Chris. This should be pasted permanently somewhere. | |
Vassal Tournament Constructed Group#
1 & 2-Champion
"You are, what you do, when it counts".
-------------------------
Sucessful Trade - Pan(2), Lexander (2) Trilistria (1) | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 1:35 PM |
| Very nice, though I will say that the Metagaming step usually comes much earlier in the process for me. This step usually eliminates some options outright, and causes me to consider others more strongly. Don't know if I'm alone in this, however. I imagine it depends on the level of the players in your tournament scene, and where you fall amongst them.
Now if only I could be more accurate with my Metagame predictions... | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 11/30/2005 1:54 PM |
| Let me take the time to throw in my own ideas of how I build my warbands. I've done a lot of research of all the top players and incorporated advice from many of them into this. I finished 21st at the Gen Con Nationals this year after going undefeated at the NJ qualifier so I guess it works to some extent.
Activations
Like Chris, I can't say enough about the importance of maxing out your activations. All the top players are in agreement on this. Every one of them will tell you the same thing. If the final total of activations in your warband is less than one from the maximum then start over. If you can find a way to go over the maximum then you have an advantage.
Threats
The best warbands will have multiple threats, definetely at least three and usually four or five. The LSD and Soth/Beholder bands are the only exceptions and they are arguably weaker than most other tier 1 bands anyway. So I too start with a concept of certain pieces or synergy I want to build my band around. But I will always keep in mind that the end result needs about four threats. Let me explain it further. Kiddoc's championship band from 2004 used two Ravagers, an Orc Champ, a Drider, and a Drow Sarge/Orc Warriors. Those were five serious threats. A multi-threat band can deal with adversity much better and can put a lot of pressure on the opponent from different angles. I usually end up comparing my band to CE quad. The CE quad has four serious threats in it. Snake Eyes has three JAs and two Couatls. The triple Chraals had three threats and some tech. The Triple Slaads and the GMx3/YM bands all have multiple threats and that's why they are good. This is one reason why the titan builds are typically weaker.
Cost Efficiency
This almost always boils down to Hit Point to Cost ratio. Ideally every piece in your warband should have a two to one ratio of hit points to cost or more. The final warband should be as close to 400hp as possible. If my final warband's combined hit point total is under 300 then it is too weak. I shoot for about 350hp. The reason obviously is that you are trying to reduce the opponent to zero so if you field a warband with 375hp and your opponent has 275hp then you have 100 more hit points for your opponent to hack through. That's a big difference.
Damage Output
The flip side to the above is overall damage output. I take every piece and add up all the damage they could possibly do in one round of full attacks. I assume that every attack will hit without any criticals. If this total is under 125hp then the band is too weak, because you know not every attack is going to hit, and you won't be getting full attacks all the time so your typical amount of damage you will do in a round will be much less than 125.
Tile Grabbing
Until the format changes from assault you MUST take tile grabbing or victory point grabbing into account. If your opponent gets three rounds of tile points more than you do then you have a 30pt deficit to overcome. That can be insurmountable in a one hour timed tournament. I learned that one the hard way at Gen Con, and is a reason I am reconsidering the typical triple death slaad build. I now try to include at least two pieces with speed 8 or more that can threaten early round tile points. Of course some merit can be given to wandering monsters or cave setup if that ever comes back but wandering monsters are generally inefficient and there placement is too random for my tastes.
So in conclusion you can see that I use a lot of what Chris has already stated. Great minds think alike. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 2:46 PM |
| Great minds may indeed think alike. Not sure what that has to do with me though.
About my guidelines ... these are the guidelines that *I* use and reflect the playstyle I like best. I was having an AIM chat with doubtofbuddha and I think I need to expand on the non-melee component. In fact, I think I need to rename that to running some sort of spatial-advantange piece. That could be an archer or spell caster who takes advantage of LOS, a creature with a breath weapon or an AoE spell or ability which my opponent will have to consider or potentially the ability to out-maneuver my opponent due to raw speed, reach or other advantage (GMA). I enjoy the added dimension that brings to the game. In either case, it is non-direct and non-melee - more of a ranged or maneuver-based function.
This is one of the reasons why I'm infatuated with the Longstrider, Green Dragon (though not as much as Newtoncain) and Monks ... their sheer speed changes the visual/spatial relationship of the pieces. The Orc Champ and Red Samurai fit into this mold as well ... one with a speed of 9 (one faster than most pieces) and one with a speed of 8 and a cone effect. More simply this includes (and this isn't an exhaustive list) figures like:
LG: Cleric of Lathander, Mialee, Aramil, Lidda, Marut, LSD, Ulmo (for ranged), Redgar, speed 10 monks
CG: Graycloak, Mialee, Aramil, Ialdabode, Lidda, Wizard Tac, Pyromancer, Marshal, Longstrider, Archmage, Halfling Ranger, Halfling Wizard, Dark Traveler, Greenfang, Redgar
LE: Gauth, Beholder, Soth, Blue, Gob Skirmisher, Dark Naga, Vargouille, Efreeti, Rakshasa, Steel Pred, Thaskor, Chraal
CE: Lich, Lareth, Deathlock, Red Sam, Kenku
Other: Mordy, things with Countersong/Improved
I don't like tons of "tech" but all of these pieces have some amount of non-direct capability that adds a dimension of complexity to the game AND these pieces can contribute directly round after round. I like to have something like this in every band. In fact I can't think of a band I've run in the recent past that doesn't have some amount of this. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 2:55 PM |
| quote:
* No single squishy commander I've killed far too many commanders myself to rely on the single weak back-field commander. I want one strong commander or multiple commanders if possible. Note here that some commanders may be resilient than you might think at first glance.
First - I put on my copy editor hat and say "you missed the word more before resilient"
Then I go on to define that for my purposes - I read this as being at least 65 hit points so that a single round of 30 damage (perfectly reasonable to expect these days) doesnt make you run. Fearless works as well, VERY high MC is fine, Conceal not so much but still something to consider.. but I want at least a single turn to run back and whomp on whatever got past me and is biting on my commander. Gotta keep that commander alive as long as possible. From more recent sets good "non-squishy" commanders include the Half-Orc Pally and Orog. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 4:39 AM |
| I made the edit Ack.
There are some commanders that I call "fighting commanders" who can survive quite well on their own. This category includes things like Ryld, Eye of Gruumsh, Blackguard, Orog, PDK, Half Orc Pally, Moon Elf, Young Master, Cleric of Dol Arrah, Lich, Death Slaad, etc. These figures are ones that really you can't just run in and kill or even rout on a single hit usually. They might have less than 65 HP but have high enough saves in general (Young Master) or commander rating (CoDA, BPM) that they aren't likely to rout after receiving one good thwack.
Just down from their is a tier of other difficult to kill commanders but these are more vulnerable on their own ... maybe they have to make a morale save after taking 30 damage with not the best chance of success. This includes everything from the Couatl (commander 0 so +10 morale check and 60 HP), Rakshasa (dr, sr, good ac and 55 HP w/ +12 morale saves), Dark Naga (60 hp) to things like the Inspiring Marshal (35 hit points, +11 morale check). These are things that you have a chance of surviving and staying on the field after one good hit from a melee figture (say a 20-30 damage swing). The important thing about these figures is that if you take, just for example, a 15-damage magic missile from a Wizard Tactician, you don't even have to bother with the check. Two, maybe ... but not just a single shot. Things like the Rakshasa have SR and perform well against this tactic at the high end ... the Marshal will make a morale check after those two.
Below this is a tier of folks that are either sturdy versus melee or versus spells ... but not completely reliable. The best examples are the Drow Sergeant (conceal 6 and SR but only 20 HP) and the Tiefling Captain (conceal 6, elemental immunities and 30 HP w/ a +7 morale check). These guys really are alot more sturdy than folks give them credit for ... and given the kinds of bands they usually accompany there can often be another commander in the band anway (an Eye of Gruumsh say) so assasination isn't usually the game breaker it can be against single commander bands. Still, you can run these guys a fair amount and be reasonably assasin-immune. Some matchups might be bad for you (melee hitters with Blindsight/fight negates the conceal) but the REAL frequency of those matchups should drive whether or not you use these ... and not simply the fear you might see one.
Finally we get to a tier of commander who are MUCH easier to kill in today's environment. Some of these have been used to great effect previously but they lack all three of HP, conceal and SR ... making them huge targets that do not recover well. The Cleric of Order (+9 on the morale check and 25 HP gives him a 50/50 shot to stay) and Warchanter (+9 mc and 25 HP) are both VERY vulnerable. I wouldn't recommend using either of these guys in the competitive tournament scene as a single commander if you hope to win a large tournament. Maybe once the speed-2 rule goes away commander assasination won't be the back-breaker it is now for some bands. The CoO is often paired with high-save LG troops (LSD cough cough) that if it isn't hampered by the speed 2 rule really could care less about a commander. The Warchanter though is something you include for his counter song and commander effect ... and sadly there is just too much benefit to kill him still once the speed-2 rule passes. He's a marked target for sure. | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3929 Posts
USA
| | 12/01/2005 6:37 AM |
| Awsome write up all of you. As it is not be tournament season, many are trying all sorts of warband/figure combinations and having a great review as presented will help in weeding out the good warbands & figures from the average and poor.
Great job!
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 8:22 AM |
| You talked about speed a bit here and there, but, there's something to be said for the dynamic of how much speed a warband has and where it has the speed.
Some bands have one speedster, and rely on backing that speedster up by rounds 2 or 3.
Other bands are universally fast. Sometimes the speed isn't so much the pure number, but, a combination of 6+Flight or something.
Some bands are mixed. YM and Giths have MaA filler, which can't get out ahead of the monks to screen, but, this also keeps these activations from dying as easily while being slow to contribute.
HP-Cost ratio is important, but, wrapped into survivability too... a high AC and Save on a slightly lower HP-Cost ratio is acceptable (Gith Monk).
As for Activations. Yes. Activations are huge.
The one possible exception would be a band that can reliably slow and remove enemy activations, no matter where they are on the board.
If you can get nearly guaranteed kills (or force morale on enemy hitters) via a barrage of ranged attacks, it is possible to compete while having fewer activations. The whole game dynamic changes, and you have to move quickly, but it is sometimes possible to get back the activation advantage while starting with a certain makeup of fewer, stronger pieces.
The pieces and practice and all the factors that go into this aren't quite solid yet, but, I believe that the theory is sound and it's not as far off as people think.
Guy's had some success with low activation bands. I've had moderate success with one. (but all were designed to quickly even the activation gap)
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Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 8:37 AM |
| You're right YRM ... and the final "activation article" by whoever eventually steps up will need to address that.
You don't need more activations on the first round. You want an advantage by the engagment round, usually round 2 or 3. A good example of the kind of band you're discussing is an IM / Pyro build. If the enemy leads with the big guys they take damage and MC after a single hit from a FB ... but if they lead with fodder they are going to start losing activations to the Graycloaks and Pyro fast.
Of course, now that things are moving to 8 figures I imagine most bands will have alot fewer 3 point activations that can be easily negated. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 11:14 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
You're right YRM ... and the final "activation article" by whoever eventually steps up will need to address that.
You don't need more activations on the first round. You want an advantage by the engagment round, usually round 2 or 3. A good example of the kind of band you're discussing is an IM / Pyro build. If the enemy leads with the big guys they take damage and MC after a single hit from a FB ... but if they lead with fodder they are going to start losing activations to the Graycloaks and Pyro fast.
Of course, now that things are moving to 8 figures I imagine most bands will have alot fewer 3 point activations that can be easily negated.
Two bands I'm thinking of are:
Drizzt - Ulmo - Pyro - Xeph (Guy's)
Drizzt - Ulmo - Aramil - Lidda Adv - Mialee - Ialdabode - Xeph (mine)
I actually did pretty well with the 2nd one in a 12 activation environment... but I don't have access to the quality of opponent that you do. (although the opponents aren't awful in many cases)
Of course, if you can eliminate activations at range, while STARTING with more activations, it's even worse.
Orog - Gauth x2 - Snig - Fill various immune screeners to 17 (or 13 in 8 enviro)
I'd have times when I'd still have 8-10 activations to go when my opponent was done. Made it impossible for them to even get easy kills on screeners. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 11:24 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by YRM_DM
quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
You're right YRM ... and the final "activation article" by whoever eventually steps up will need to address that.
You don't need more activations on the first round. You want an advantage by the engagment round, usually round 2 or 3. A good example of the kind of band you're discussing is an IM / Pyro build. If the enemy leads with the big guys they take damage and MC after a single hit from a FB ... but if they lead with fodder they are going to start losing activations to the Graycloaks and Pyro fast.
Of course, now that things are moving to 8 figures I imagine most bands will have alot fewer 3 point activations that can be easily negated.
Two bands I'm thinking of are:
Drizzt - Ulmo - Pyro - Xeph (Guy's)
Drizzt - Ulmo - Aramil - Lidda Adv - Mialee - Ialdabode - Xeph (mine)
I actually did pretty well with the 2nd one in a 12 activation environment... but I don't have access to the quality of opponent that you do. (although the opponents aren't awful in many cases)
Of course, if you can eliminate activations at range, while STARTING with more activations, it's even worse.
Orog - Gauth x2 - Snig - Fill various immune screeners to 17 (or 13 in 8 enviro)
I'd have times when I'd still have 8-10 activations to go when my opponent was done. Made it impossible for them to even get easy kills on screeners.
Ive had some very good experience with that second band, and some very bad. When it works it works well. The issue becomes superfast units that can close that gap in one rd, or two at the max. (G.A.S. for example)
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Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 3:17 PM |
| Yeah I mean... 4 Gith Monks and a Young Master can Auto Hit most units for 120 damage, it's very nearly the next "orc horde" in terms of "easy to think of, and almost always works".
It'll be a shame if the next Qualifiers feature 90% YM and Gith Monk varient bands. Even auto damage units that counter them have trouble getting morale checks on the GM before dying or beind stunned. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 12/01/2005 3:38 PM |
| i'd like to know how conceal fits into the hp/cost ratio of a piece. Say for example the direguard with conceal 11. since %50 of the attacks against the direguard will fail do you consider it as having 80hp?...60?, for your warband building purposes?
just wondering
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Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 12/01/2005 3:46 PM |
| | Yes with conceal 11 I consider the piece to have double the hit points. Conceal 6 I dismiss entirely as it isn't reliable enough for me so I don't factor that in. The reason being some games your opponent will make every conceal check so you haven't gained anything. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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BudLeiser
Warrior
218 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 3:55 PM |
| | removed. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 4:02 PM |
| It depends on the piece. HP / cost isn't as important to me as what HP breakpoints they are at.
The Cursed Spirit isn't going to reliably stand up to any serious hitter relying only in incorporeal. It's AC is crap and it basically can take 1 hit from a hitter. But for 11 points it is a nice frustrating piece.
The Ghostly Consort with her better AC and incorporeal you can count on surviving 3 hits (two from her normal HP of 35 and one extra from the incorporeal). I evaluate her as if she had (basically) 65 HP or 55 HP. She's nice, but even at that point doesn't do enough damage.
Anything with Conceal 6 I don't count on mathematically. The Duergar is efficient without conceal 6 ... conceal 6 makes it top tier. It's gravy, but that's what separates the little ones from the big ones. HP of 55 and conceal 6 wouldn't be nearly as nifty. He's going to be going toe-to-toe and having to morale check after a single hit is different math than doing so after two hits with 65 HP. Two hits before morale (and three to kill) means that on a pair of Duergar you can reasonably expect to take 5 hits to MC both of them. At 55 HP you'd MC after a hit ... and with conceal 6 in you can't guarantee that'll be pushed to three hits for a pair of Deurgar. Since you know you'll probably be swinging second, the 65 HP and level 10 is a major factor in the piece being useful.
So for me, the HP/cost is important ... but not as importat as the actual HP involved and the piece's role. The Gauth, for instance, doesn't have the best cost/hp ... but as a stand-off attacker he's going to get the first shot on you, so it doesn't need as many HP. It has enough to ignore a few hits from smaller guys but will morale check after one good thwack at 25+ ... but by that point in time it's probably dished out 15 or 30 itself, so it's kinda even.
But, those are my guidelines ... others have different ones they use ... | |
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