Teach
Sneak
140 Posts
    
 | | 12/01/2005 3:14 AM |
| | recovered topic 12168 | |
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Teach
Sneak
140 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 3:14 AM |
| I think Eleminster and archmage would be really fun, but definitely not "tier 1".
I think for your on the right track trying to find just one spellcaster to pair with Elminster.
Some possible good combos with him:
Elf Pyromancer (for protection/ fireball)
evermeet wizard (benign transportation/summon animal/elemental)
Neither of these seem "perfect"
My feeling is you either have to find a 20 or less point caster with a couple of really interesting spells, or you need to find a 30-40 point caster with some sort of melee prescence. You're already spending 100 points on a Spellcaster (Eleminster), I would think spending anymore too much more on a pure caster is not a good idea. Your band becomes too squishy.
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 3:31 AM |
| Elminster is incredibly fragile. He has -2 AC compared to the Archmage and does not have conceal. Even having +15 hp over the Archmage does little to help him. Elminster drops fast if based by heavy hitters.
I think Elminster is unplayable in a 200 pt, 12-activation environment. You just can't build an appropriate warband that can support El, protect him, and have sufficient offense and activations with the 100 points you have left after him. In an 8 activation era, it might not be as bad. I think he definitely is better in Epic formats.
However, for an 8 activation era, if you use him, add a spellcaster with Blur and a spellcaster with Mage Armor. At 22 AC and conceal 6, El becomes much more survivable.
The cheapest way to get Blur is with Nebin. Aramil for Mage Armor 13. So right there you have 131 points already spent in your warband. If you are going to go with a spellcaster band, I say go all out and hope you can blast your opponent to pieces before they can get close. If you want to totally blast apart your enemies from sight, add 2 Elf Pyros so you can throw out 3 fireballs at DC 17 for 60 fire damage on round 1. Of course, you only have 5 more points for fodder (perhaps Jozan) and a total of 6 activations. Very very bad for 12 figure era and still somewhat bad in 8 figure era. However, with 3 fireballs, you'll equalize activations quickly. Just pray you don't face LRD or Efreetis.
As an aside, I did play Elminster+Archmage at the Titan's Tournament at GenCon SoCal. I went 2-1. And should have won my one loss if not for some boneheaded play on my part. But to underscore how fragile Elminster is, Nebin killed him. That was just awful. Nevermind that my opponent had whittled El's hp from 90 to 5. Still, to get beat by Nebin was the height of ignominy. [)]
I beat a DarkNaga+DuergarChamp+HelmedHorror+Chrall+Gauth+filler band and a Balor+Hezrou+Trog+CursedSpirit+filler band. The band I lost to featured Ryld+AspectofKord+RenegadeWarlock+unique fodder. In all my games, Elminster died.
EDIT: Just for laughs, I will play this warband one day:
Elminster
Githyanki Renegade
Adventuring Wizard
Aramil
Xephsx3
Aramil ups El to AC 22. Gith and El can cast Blur on themselves to gain conceal 6. I use EMMs to pick off enemies or soften up targets until the timing is right. I'd be waiting for an opportunity to quickcast Dimension Door (from Gith), move to catch the majority of my opponent's warband in a blast of flame (via Adv Wiz), then DD my Gith in front of or next to El. My hope is that my Adv Wizard is also within a move and cast of his blast of flame. So that would be 60 fire damage. If not, I can run him in next round to cast it. If my opponent bases Elminster with his hitters, then my Gith Renegade can whirlwind to try to catch as many hitters as he can and then El uses his Silverfire special ability for 20 more dmg. Hopefully, this avalanche of area damage does its trick and wins the day for me. If not, I lose. But would be fun to try. | |
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lexander
Sergeant
431 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 5:07 AM |
| I have concluded that Elminister must pair with a figure with mage armour (Aramil or Evermeet Wizard). Throw in Eberk and Crow Shaman and Cleric of Order. And he will have a Whopping AC: 27 But you have too little points for anything else.
I have toyed with the idea of Elminster with 2 evermeet wizard. 80 elemental damage that ignores Spell Resistance is nothing to sneeze at. Plus you 22 for a hitter and upto 12 summoned creatures hehe mixtures of Azers, Wolfs and Dire Rats.. for an easy 16 activation warband :o) And you have benign transportation to bail any suffering creatures (Elminister Included).
Playing this warband on the Map with Summoning Circle would be crucial. But with El's Commander that may be easy to accomplish | |
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Tananthalas
Sneak
64 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 8:32 AM |
| | Anyone think of the githianki renegade i know he is 42 pts but he has melee presence and can give elminster his blur spell. Then use aramil for the mage armor. Elmister may also allow the warmage to be worth it's 22 points. just some thoughts | |
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CorneilleLoiseau
Sergeant
402 Posts
Qc, Canada
| | 12/01/2005 8:57 AM |
| Talanthas,
I don't think Elminster can bring the warmage in CG. I think his warband building is just for commander.
Guillaume | |
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2637 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 12/01/2005 8:58 AM |
| | Elminster is better in his epic form. I had a hard time with him in a 500 point band, I couldn't kill him. | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
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"anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16 | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 9:21 AM |
| Elminster is 100 points of support, and therein lies the problem. You only have 100 points left to spend on front line fighters. Spending any more points on support to buff El's spells is a mistake, IMO.
The only chance he has in a 200 point warband is to get his Curses on 2 of the big beaters on the other side, and hope that helps his allies enough to win. He can use silver fire and scorching ray to help some once the battle is joined. However, once he gets the Mystra's Curses off, his primary goal should be to stay alive.
If I were running Elminster in a 200 point, 8 figure tourney, I'd probably run something like this:
Elminster
Celestial Pegasus
Rikka
Half-Ogre Barbarian
Xeph Warrior x4
In a 12 activation format, I'd have to drop the Peg and probably Rikka as well, to get 2 more H-O Barbs, and more activations.
I'd probably still struggle to do well, but I think it may have a fighting chance. | |
Rhane
"The focus is sharp in the city..."
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 9:42 AM |
| What Elminster needs are front-line fighters who happen to have a spell or two. That way, El can use the spells while the fighters are busy fighting. The Gith d-door is a good example, he just needs more guys like that.
If you wanna go for spell overkill, I'd pair him with Elf Pyro and Aramil and use the remaining points as screeners.
El + Archmage isn't as much fun as it sounds. My brother tried it on me once. Unfortunately for him, I was playing an Orc band... Eye and Champ had El based by the third round. Boom boom, out go the lights. | | | |
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md3
Sergeant
702 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 12:39 PM |
| I like the Githyanki and Elminister idea. I get a hitter and blur.
What do you guys think about the Coautl?
What do you guys think about the Wizard Tac?
What do you guys think about the Wand Expert?
I tried to give El 2 hitters and ended up with Gith and Goliath and Wizard Tac, but it just looks so light. | |
"You are not the sum of your miniatures."
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Boomerry
Skirmisher
28 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 12:50 PM |
| | Has anyone tried putting a Clay Golem with him? Clay Golem is a great tanker/beater/blocker, you just have to make sure that Elminister doesn't die :P. | |
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 1:42 PM |
| Elminster without good Mages to pull spells from is Fool's Gold.
El's spells aren't THAT great in a 200 pt game. BUT if he gets Emp. MM, or Fireballs especially, then he becomes more usable. | |
Dr. Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "Eta...
Jayne: Well don't say it!
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 2:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chairman7w
Elminster without good Mages to pull spells from is Fool's Gold.
El's spells aren't THAT great in a 200 pt game. BUT if he gets Emp. MM, or Fireballs especially, then he becomes more usable.
Too many spell casters is the fools gold I think. You fill with spell casters, the 4 hard hitters running at you will survive that damage and swing and cleave through little pyros without protection like they are butter.
Overall I think Elminster is pretty unusable in 200pts. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 2:14 PM |
| | I don't think Elminster is a good choice for 200 pt play. I think he's fools gold in 200 pt with or without other spellcasters... | |
Champion of Remorhaz, and the Mighty Goblin Frog Riders | |
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omikapsi
Sneak
77 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 7:18 PM |
| I like the idea of:
Elminster 100
Mordenkainen 69
Cleric of Garl Glittergold 31
Have Elminster and the cleric just in front of Mordenkainen. Any unit basing them will take 15 damage.
In addition, you have 3 lightning bolts and 2 cones of cold, on top of 6 scorching rays and a couple of sanctuaries (which has range touch, so you can cast it while based), for an almost gauranteed 30 damage to any melee unit that dares approach.
Plus, Mystras curse is doubly nasty with the cleric in range, requiring enemies to roll high on their first two attacks to even have a chance of getting off their following attacks. | |
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 7:19 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by omikapsi
I like the idea of:
Elminster 100
Mordenkainen 69
Cleric of Garl Glittergold 31
Have Elminster and the cleric just in front of Mordenkainen. Any unit basing them will take 15 damage.
In addition, you have 3 lightning bolts and 2 cones of cold, on top of 6 scorching rays and a couple of sanctuaries (which has range touch, so you can cast it while based), for an almost gauranteed 30 damage to any melee unit that dares approach.
Plus, Mystras curse is doubly nasty with the cleric in range, requiring enemies to roll high on their first two attacks to even have a chance of getting off their following attacks.
Its a neat little build actually. Would be quite fun. Don't think it'd win any tourneys, but could kink a few hoses. I'll have to try that out sometime. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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TruNutral88
Sergeant
522 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 8:34 PM |
| | Nobody has said this yet (that i've read) but why not use El with a couple wizard tacticians. Make them move there low save beaters or beaters in generaly in different manuvers and kill em off one at a time with bigby's and EMM's. Just an idea i don't think anyone has posted. | |
Champion of Bruenor Battlehammer | |
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TroglodyteWizard89
Warrior
346 Posts
USA
| | 12/01/2005 9:12 PM |
| I used Elminster and Silver Sorcerer together, and it wasnt that bad, the band looked like this
Elminster 100
Gith Renagade 42
Silver Sorcerer 49
Xeph Warrior x3 9
6 activations, 200 points
It would get creamed in 12, but we played 8 in this match. The silver sorcerer seems to be a defunked peice, but it doesnt do so bad with spell focus. | |
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TruNutral88
Sergeant
522 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 9:14 PM |
| | I wish they had gotten rid of some of the silver sorcerors blurs and a lightning bolt or 2. It would be nice if they got rid of 2 of each of his spells and made hima round 34pts. Then he would be semi effective but probably shaded by the pyro. | |
Champion of Bruenor Battlehammer | |
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Istari
Skirmisher
28 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 9:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Feathers
Elminster is incredibly fragile. He has -2 AC compared to the Archmage and does not have conceal. Even having +15 hp over the Archmage does little to help him. Elminster drops fast if based by heavy hitters.
The lack of Conceal and low AC really hurts a big spell caster such as Elminster.
Not too mention while his abilities/spells are good, they don't have the offensive synergy of the Archmages spells and abilities.
While the archmage, IMO, will become more powerful in the future format (because it will be easier to use set maps to your advantage rather than having an opponent drop a tile where it could hose Archmage), he's barely Tier 1, if tier 1 at all.
And this reflects further as to how bad Elminster is in 200. Perhaps 'bad' is the wrong word to use. more like 'not good'.
But like Rhane pointed out, Elminster is virtually a 100 pt support figure. And as fun as that can be in casual play, its absurd in competitive play.
Elminster is awesome. Just not the competitive awesomeness. (which doesn't bother me at all! At least we finally got him!) | |
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Zoons
Underboss
1066 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 10:21 PM |
| Here's a neat band (8 activation environment only) that works on certain maps that have a pinch point.
Elminster - 100
Djinn - 45
Ialdabode - 5
Nebin - 18
Elf Pyromancer - 32
Now before you keel over laughing, picture this. The 45 HP wonder sits in the pinch point, immune to whatever elemental damage your opponent planned for you and battling his cursed attackers with conceal 11. If your opponent doesn't have fliers, he's gonna have a tough time damaging the Djinn. Double rolls versus conceal 11 suck. So, your opponent could use two or three attackers to try to hit him with uncursed hitters, but then the Djinn's wirlwind attack is actually useful. If that fails, nebin has conceal 6 for El and you have two fireballs and 2 Melf's arrows to rout a useful hitter. Even Ialdabode's psionics may work with the spell focus.
Z | |
Never teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig.
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 12/02/2005 2:04 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by TroglodyteWizard89
I used Elminster and Silver Sorcerer together, and it wasnt that bad, the band looked like this
Elminster 100
Gith Renagade 42
Silver Sorcerer 49
Xeph Warrior x3 9
6 activations, 200 points
It would get creamed in 12, but we played 8 in this match. The silver sorcerer seems to be a defunked peice, but it doesnt do so bad with spell focus.
The words used Silver Sorceror always sends cringes down my spine. Truly one of the worst figures ever. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Liquidburn
Sergeant
944 Posts
| | 12/02/2005 7:45 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
quote:
Originally posted by Chairman7w
Elminster without good Mages to pull spells from is Fool's Gold.
El's spells aren't THAT great in a 200 pt game. BUT if he gets Emp. MM, or Fireballs especially, then he becomes more usable.
Too many spell casters is the fools gold I think. You fill with spell casters, the 4 hard hitters running at you will survive that damage and swing and cleave through little pyros without protection like they are butter.
Overall I think Elminster is pretty unusable in 200pts.
My thoughts exactly AESD. The 100 pt Elminster is great for 500 but in 200 he's just another Wizard who costs a lot of points and probably dies relatively quickly. | |
Jason Slingerland
"Why do I have to be Mr. Pink?" | |
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