nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
    
Wadsworth, OH
 | | 12/02/2005 9:20 PM |
| | Does anyone think that the Clay golem might make some sort of a comeback once we switch to 8 figures and use maps? The speed is not as bad a hindrance on the maps because they have smaller dimensions, and the point cost is not so bad either with fewer figures. i used to really think the requires instruction was a problem, but it doesn't seem so bad now with figures that require commander being fairly prevelant in skirmish matches. I've kept two of these guys since Archfiends hoping they'd come back in style. what do you guys think? | |
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2637 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 12/02/2005 10:33 PM |
| I'd like to see the other three start to do good (Flesh, Stone, Clay) I love golems, but requires commander hurts.
They should come out with half-golems. | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
"This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun
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vudumumu
Sneak
83 Posts
| | 12/02/2005 11:17 PM |
| | Only 1 has requires commander, the rest have requires instruction | | | |
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dndplaya4eva
Sneak
96 Posts
| | 12/02/2005 11:30 PM |
| | I bet that Clay will do better in 8 figure limit because it give clay more survivable units to help it out. I doubt Flesh will do any good because of its small damage output. I think Requires Commander for the Iron golem is sort of crippling but, with a survivable commander, he should be alright. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10445 Posts
United States
| | 12/03/2005 7:49 AM |
| The Clay Golem in particular is good against both Spellcasters and Beholders and is, therefore, valuable enough that he can remain viable. I expect we'll see this figure in competitive bands from time to time.
The problem with every piece pre-Aberrations is that, as mentioned in another post, there has been some power creep and it's getting harder and harder to find reasons to include most of those pieces. There are some very notable exceptions (Inspiring Marshal comes to mind), but even the pieces from Archfiends that once dominated the propsed ban threads (LSD, Orc Champ, Graycloak) no longer even show up on the radar of such threads.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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TruNutral88
Sergeant
522 Posts
| | 12/03/2005 9:18 AM |
| | I think that Clay Golem couldbe good with Balor, due to non-squishyness and the requires instruction thing. He should do great with the portals they'll soon be making. | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3523 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 12/03/2005 9:27 AM |
| | The Clay Golem has always been and is still a viable piece (I used him to win a constructed qualifier just this past July). The only really meaningful drawback is its slow speed, but that's not nearly enough to hold it back. He's an awesome piece if you use him right. | |
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2637 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 12/03/2005 9:38 AM |
| But of course it doesn't matter who his commander is if your opponent has devis, warchanter, and I can't remember the other one or two who have counter song and improved counter song.
Counter song is deadly against clay golem bands (Believe me it has happened to me on more then one occation) | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
"This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun
"anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16 | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3523 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 12/03/2005 9:46 AM |
| | Countersong doesn't throw the Clay Golem into confusion. Only improved countersong will do that. It's certainly a concern, but since only the Warchanter and Voice of Battle have it, and both are relatively soft targets, if you build your band appropriately, you can deal with that threat quite easily. When GoL came out, I was scared away from using the Clay Golem for a while, but I quickly saw the error of my ways. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2637 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 12/03/2005 9:53 AM |
| | The times I had with having the clay golem getting improved counter songed was when my opponent had a thing for strategy and FBs. I always got stuck trying to get through the FBs first and that never got me anywhere. | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
"This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun
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TroglodyteWizard89
Warrior
346 Posts
USA
| | 12/03/2005 2:43 PM |
| | FBs are flat out annoying with Clay Golem, yet hes a great counter for gith monk bands. He is immune criticals and stun, and has about 50% to hit when they are unbuffed. If your play in a relatively heavy gith monk metagame, the clay golem is still a viable piece. | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
| | 12/03/2005 6:06 PM |
| quote:
[i]Originally posted by TroglodyteWizard89[/i]
[br]FBs are flat out annoying with Clay Golem, yet hes a great counter for gith monk bands. He is immune criticals and stun, and has about 50% to hit when they are unbuffed. If your play in a relatively heavy gith monk metagame, the clay golem is still a viable piece.
I don't know about that. The Gith Monks will be able to easily outmaneuver the Clay Golem, and I would expect them to go after the commander rather than going toe-to-toe with the golem. | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10445 Posts
United States
| | 12/04/2005 8:57 AM |
| Yesterday, in a 5-Swiss-round epic tourney that I judged, there were two bands with two Clay Golems, and one band with one. The two bands with two Clay Golems were:
Ghaele Eladrin x2
Clay Golem x2
Crow Shaman x2
Aspect of Kord
Graycloak
Timber Wolf
One of the players (Liquidburn, on maxminis) plopped the Clays out front against spellcasters, and kept the Ghaele's behind them, firing away (either across the Tomb map, or through the smoke map, given their blindsight). Against melee hitters, the Ghaele's could set up really horrible positions for their fear, and the Clays could double move into excellent support positions for Kord and his Shaman buddies. This band went 4-1 in Swiss, and won the playoff.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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scifirules
Sergeant
354 Posts
| | 12/04/2005 4:15 PM |
| | A lot of warbands that I've seen with the Clay Golem have the Lich Necromancer for a commander. I don't think I've ever seen the Clay played in CG, though; probably because of of its support would end up outrunning it. It still seems like a pretty sturdy piece (I'm going by what I know from spoiler lists, since I don't actually have one...). | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3523 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 12/04/2005 5:28 PM |
| Right now, I still I like the golem best with a Lich Necromancer, though I haven't looked extremely carefully at the new commander options. As pointed out, that provides you a lot of protection from those new, pesky, efficient monks that LG is getting. My philosophy for that pair is that the Clay Golem is the Lich's buddy (or whatever commander). He's a body guard who rarely strays far from his prime commander. That works when you have a commander who is an offensive threat, especially a ranged threat, like the Lich. The enemy has to come after you because they can't generally just sit back and take the punisment the Lich is dealing out.
You have to be patient with the golem. Because he's fearless and has great AC and hp, you can usually let the enemy beaters make the first move, and you can also advance under cover and force archers and spellcasters to target him. You don't want to just sit tight in a hole, though. You want him to get into melee (or into a point scoring hidey-hole with the rest of your band) by round 2 or 3, so keep double moving him toward the point where you want to fight, especially in assault format. (As long as you have a cheap tile grabber for round 1, you don't have to give up an assault point advantage--I love the cursed spirit, though you might need something speedier on today's maps.)
Keep your commander advancing behind the golem. The Lich and golem have speeds that I think complement each other well. The Lich can cast and move 6, while the golem moves up to 8 in a round. That keeps them together but keeps you on the offensive. Be careful about letting anyone but your tile grabbers stray ahead of the golem. He should be the wall that you advance behind. Not that I'm suggesting that you should lay the golem out to get clobbered. Make your opponent focus on him at first, but don't make it easy on him.
You should probably use two commanders to mitigate the risk inherent with "requires instruction". Your two options are a tough commander who doubles as a hitter, like the Eye of Gruumsh (since you should have a fast beater to complement the golem, anyway), or a cheap commander who provides tech and leaves you plenty of room for more support, like the Drow Sergeant or Tiefling captain. The second option is more viable in an 8-figure limit environment, in my opinion.
I mentioned that you should have a fast hitter to complement. That's important because your opponent probably gets to choose where he positions himself relative to the golem. The golem is large and slow, so you don't have many options where to put him. So you need guys who can help him flank and/or go after soft targets who want to stay away from the golem, or chase down wounded critters trying to get away from the golem.
I guess that pretty much sums up the advice I can give based on experience. Hope that helps folks who want to make use of the Clay Golem | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
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scifirules
Sergeant
354 Posts
| | 12/04/2005 5:59 PM |
| What if you're using the Clay in CG? I'd use a warband like this:
Inspiring Marshal (29 pts)
Clay Golem (56 pts)
Half-Elf Bow Initiate x2 (86 pts)
That's 171 points right there, so you can use what you want for filler (Ialdabode, Wild Elf Raiders, etc.). The Half-Elves' ranged attacks force your opponent to come to them, right into the lumbering Golem.
Faragdar also mentioned having a "fast hitter to compliment" the Golem. How about this:
Inspiring Marshal (29 pts)
Clay Golem (56 pts)
Goliath Barbarian x2 (62 pts)
Renegade Warlock (30 pts)
Ialdabode, Human Psion (5 pts)
Wild Elf Raider x3 (18 pts)
TOTAL: 200 pts, 9 activations
Yeah, it's nine activations (!@#$%^*& limit!), but it might just work. The Goliaths keep the enemy occupied while the Golem slowly advances, while Ialdabode and the Warlock soften up enemies berfore even the Goliaths reach melee combat. The Wild Elves are perfect, fearless fodder pieces that also have a decent attack (+5 ⎖]). Not sure if it's tournament-worthy, though. | |
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"I will pay my dues when you send me my tusks!" -Strong Bad
Champion of Chainmail Equivalencies | Knight of Efficient Fodder
WotDQ Called Shot: Large Green Dragon (VINDICATED) | Blood War Called Shot: Large Brass Dragon | Unhallowed Called Shot: Skeletal Troll
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3523 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 12/04/2005 6:41 PM |
| The Clay Golem is tough to fit into a 200 point CG army, right now. I think the Inspiring Marshall is just too fragile to be your only commander for the golem. But decent cheap CG commanders are tough to come by, so it's tough to run two commanders with the guy. Running two commanders is pretty important, I think. Possibly:
47 Nentyar Hunter
29 Inspiring Marshall
56 Clay Golem
43 Half-elf Bow Initiate
15 Graycloak Ranger + Wolf
06 Wild Elf Raider
04 Elf Warrior
Or go with Regdar as second commander so that you can squeeze in more fodder and/or upgrade fodder. You have a band that is a significant ranged threat, and you have a pretty survivable prime commander (AC isn't great, but 70 hp, conceal 6 and immune criticals isn't bad).
Maybe:
31 Cleric of Garl Glittergold (at least sanctuary can ensure an extra round of survival)
56 Clay Golem
29 Inspiring Marshall
52 Frenzied Berserker
15 Graycloak Ranger + Wolf
12 Wild Elf Raider x2
05 Ialdabode
The Frenzied Berserker is tough to use with a Clay Golem, though, because burnout makes you want to range her out ahead. Being patient with an FB is a challenge.
I don't know. There are probably a few options worth playing with, but I'd be surprised if any work out as well as the Lich/Golem combo. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10445 Posts
United States
| | 12/04/2005 8:12 PM |
| If you're a real gambler, and want to play the Lich with the Golem, but feel a need for a second commander, you could try this.
Lich Necromancer x2
Clay Golem
Orc Warrior x5
Like I said, it's risky, especially if your opponent can either wipe out the Clay Golem quickly or get to your Liches too quickly. But, with that many paralysis attempts, the Orc Warriors maintain some amount of threat. Of course, you're gonna get slaughtered in assault points.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2129 Posts
| | 12/04/2005 8:30 PM |
| | what about death slaad with clay golem | |
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scifirules
Sergeant
354 Posts
| | 12/04/2005 8:35 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Faragdar the Wise
(at least sanctuary can ensure an extra round of survival)
But you can't cast it on the Golem, though. Spell Resistance All is cool, but not if you're trying to buff something with it. | |
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"I will pay my dues when you send me my tusks!" -Strong Bad
Champion of Chainmail Equivalencies | Knight of Efficient Fodder
WotDQ Called Shot: Large Green Dragon (VINDICATED) | Blood War Called Shot: Large Brass Dragon | Unhallowed Called Shot: Skeletal Troll
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11730 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 12/04/2005 9:35 PM |
| | An offbeat commander to pair with the Clay Golem(s) is Mordenkainen, if you're not playing assault. When the enemy comes to you, make sure Mordy is well protected (between a wall and the Golem(s), then start hitting the enemy with everything you've got - lightning bolts, the cone of cold, etc, because the Clays will be immune to them. Plus Mordy's commander effect will be wearing them down. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
| | 12/04/2005 11:20 PM |
| I really used to like running the Clay Golem in CG. Too bad its not extremely viable anymore. I really enjoyed using the Silver Sorcerer with it, to target spells through it.
The Clay Golem is a great melee figure, but I think its best role is serving as a bodyguard or screener for archers and spellcasters. In CG there are not a lot of options for him to protect that are not too expensive.
I might be tempted to try using him with some Renegade Warlocks and some Wand Experts or Haling Wizards tho...
EDIT: maybe something like
Clay Golem
Goliath Barbarian
Netnyar Hunter
Wand Expert
Greycloak Ranger x2
-wolf x2
Xeph Warrior
The Netnyar, as stated before is fairly survivable and is also a ranged threat. Clay and Goliath add some melee protection for the ranged units. | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3523 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 12/05/2005 12:58 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by scifirules
But you can't cast it on the Golem, though. Spell Resistance All is cool, but not if you're trying to buff something with it.
I meant an extra round of survival for your commander, because especially with something as squishy as the Cleric of Garl Glittergold, your opponent is going to focus on him, rather than the Clay Golem. When they do, sanctuary yourself and guarrantee at least one more round of command for your golem.
Death Slaad and Clay Golem is an excellent idea, wicked cool. I'm sure there are plenty of good bands to build around those two. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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Void
Sneak
156 Posts
| | 12/05/2005 7:37 AM |
| | For CG, maybe you could pair the Clay Golem with the Greenfang Druid? Giving a FB regeneration makes it easier to play the waiting game, the Greenfang has a decent amount of ranged damage, and you could fill up with Greycloaks as the primary ranged threat. | |
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