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DDM Constructed Champion 2006
derry
Warrior
268 Posts
    
 | | 12/07/2005 2:19 PM |
| I usually start threads on the Wizards boards but this thread is really targeted at the core of the posters and players that are the Maxminis community. My goal with this post is to engage dialog, not try to tell anyone how to play and definitely not to impact the ways people are finding ways to have fun.
So to repeat, if anything in this post causes you to limit your ability to have fun with DDM, ignore this post. The goal of playing DDM is to have fun.
** Spoiler Warning ** (different context, but still works)
Many players on these boards and in my local scene talk about playing warbands now with a warband limit of 8 creatures (even though the official limit is 12.) Some players also talk about using a rule where a creature moves normally, even when out of command (aka the speed 2 rule.)
I am seeing warband building discussion with the predicate that the warband base size limit is 8. An example thread is http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12689.
So finally, my point and my suggestion is that we should stick to the current rules, including warband size and the speed 2 rule. I am not saying I think we should limit all conversations. But, I do feel we are missing a number of things by playing what the new rules may or may not be.
1. We are missing out on playing the Underdark expansion that everyone else is. YM+GM warbands with an 8 creature limit are very different than those with a 12 figure limit. The 8 creature limit versions of the YM+GM warbands are much more competitive currently, but we lack the creatures and complete rules of Wardrums that impact the metagame and maybe even this warband specifically.
2. We are impacting the mentoring and training of new players that we each are engaged in. It makes it difficult to get them to focus on the current rules, current metagame, and current learning opportunities when we provide distractions.
3. We are fragmenting our tournaments, strategy discussions, and community by each diverging into separate pockets using various rules. I am usually very against “house rules” for competitive games, for I feel the best thing to usually do is just change the game for all. We are sort of setting up a bunch of non-standard house rule communities, which does not help us all.
4. We are at a fragile time of the year (holidays) and a fragile time in our growth curve as a game. We all need to make sure to be careful and to maintain our growth and momentum. Distractions that make it more difficult to recruit or that cause confusion to beginning players are not conducive to our overall growth. I am not saying these discussions will result in big impacts to our community, but every little bit matters a lot right now.
So once again, do not take this suggestion as the ravings of some control freak/Nazi who desires to have things only be one way. My suggestion is just a polite one that I hope will keep our community in focus.
So let me know what you think, but for and against my suggestion. The goal is dialog, since actually limiting gameplay or conversations would probably be a bigger negative than the actual impact of this issue.
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 2:29 PM |
| I'm of two minds about this.
I like the new types of warbands that we are building with 8 figures, but at the same time, I also feel like we should continue to play with the current rules until they are officially phased out. That's one of the reasons why our recent Endgame tournament was 12 figure limits.
Actually, it seems we've already adopted at least one of the WD era rules, which is the use of maps. I think the 3 big changes people are experimenting with are:
1. Maps - Many of us have already adopted this. And we even play with maps at our local tourneys now in teh Bay Area. This seems the least disruptive of the changes. And has lots of benefits: makes setup faster, is more visually appealing to spectactors and new players.
2. 8 figure limits - This is a greater change than maps, but many players I believe secretly enjoy the ability to field much more powerful bands under the 8 fig limit. Bands like CE 5 hitter, triple FB, 4xGiths, are more powerful than their 12 figure counterparts (Quad, dual FB, triple Giths), and so I think people enjoy that. This one I am unsure about, and I wouldn't mind erring on the 12 fig side until we get more info about the WD era rules.
3. No spd 2 - I think everyone feels this is the biggest change and few people are playing with this rule. Mostly because people don't know if there is another drawback to keep no spd 2 under control. I don't advocate playing with this rule until March. | |
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Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 2:32 PM |
| I agree. I keep away from reading strategy threads talking about 8 figure limit warbands, etc. The 8 figure limit is still 3 months away and it seems like folks have been playing with it since the intel was dropped. I don't care that the limit is changing, but until it's official I'm not wasting time on it.
I think for the most part, folks are excited about the changes and talking about it acts as a release for the tension and excitement building up. I fear that a lot of dudes will have played 8 figure and maps for so long leading to Wardrums, that they won't be nearly as excited as I will when the change is official. | | | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 2:32 PM |
| I think you bring up some good points, especially the notion that a few of us aren't playing Underdark (or DDM in general) as it was designed, but rather as we expect it to be in a few months.
Three months is a long time when you play frequently, which I do on Vassal. I've never limited myself to 8 figs or tested out the OOC rule. There will be time enough to explore the new game mechanics when they are official.
On the other hand, it's also useful to get an early start, and to have discussions and warband ideas that won't be rendered irrelevant after March. | | | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1364 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 2:33 PM |
| | Derry, you make some good points. As a fellow WotC Delegate, it's difficult for me to recommend that players buy starter kits currently because I know that they'll only get a few months of use out of them in terms of tournament play. As for what rules to use and discuss, it's a dilemma for me. I'm playing in a 12 figure tournament on Saturday, and I don't have the collective Maxminis wisdom to draw upon. At the same time, I want to get to know all of the maps and try out different warbands on them using what I know about the rules that will be in effect when maps begin to be used. I don't have a solution to offer, but I think it's an interesting discussion, and I'm glad you raised it. | | | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 12/07/2005 2:41 PM |
| i just think its a shame that the lower cost fig is going to lose its merit. I hope they do something (seperate (side) 100 point tournies or some other funky rule to force inclusion of the low cost figs). You look at pile(s) of commons and shake your head enough as it is. When it goes to 8 acts...ouch.
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nedleeds
Warrior
240 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 2:44 PM |
| | WoTC should have never held official events on maps, and invoking pieces of their "new" rules. | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 2:45 PM |
| Derry,
While I appreciate the validity of your concerns, I must take advantage of the escape clause you provided (fun) when justifying our local use of 8 figures and maps. The bottom line for us is that most of our players have more fun (with dissenter MidnightAfterparty a notorious exception [:)]) with the newer rules. We haven't touched the massive change of Speed 2 removal. The maps let you get more actual DDM game time in, and the 8 fig limit makes it more feasible to use the cool loking titans like Thaskors, Beholders, Maruts, etc.
The fracturing you speak of would worry me more if it weren't guaranteed to end in a few months.
Pat Lynch | |
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| DDM Constructed Champion 2006
derry
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 2:55 PM |
| Just to confirm people's suspisions, I have not stayed "pure".
As a local organizer, since Gencon Socal, I have encouraged all local tournaments to be with maps (to get all players to get experience with them.)
As a player, most of my time is spent on conceptualizing 8 creature warbands, not 12. I only really spend my time on 12 creature warbands when preparing for our local Key Tournaments.
I have probably spent too much time considering commanderless options for the Wardrums era. (This is the real reason I started this thread, in order to get my head out of my a** and live in the present, not the future.)
But, as a mentor and guide about DDM, I have tried to keep people focused on their own growth and interest in the game. So I have been pretty careful about discussions with them, and disclose the problem with my 8 creature warbands when playing against their 12 creature ones. (Do as I say, not as I do.) | |
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 3:05 PM |
| We play 8 figure warbands, on maps, with the current in command rules at this point in time and encourage local TO to do so as well (they usually end up letting people vote on it. I have yet to be at a tournament where most if not all the people there prefered maps and 8 figures.)
We even encourage our newer players to do likewise, for the simple fact that we are trying to get everybody ready for the qualifier season, and the more time people spend thinking about maps and 8 figures warbands the more ready they will be. Why teach them about 12 figures and tiles when those are going to end up being skills they are never going to use? Though I admit my skill in tile placement and 12 figure band cosntruction has probably atrophied quite a bit in the last few months, but thats something I can live with. | |
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Mindtrick
Warrior
234 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 3:27 PM |
| Mmmmmmmm…..Atrophy……
As a relatively new player I would like to chime in on this subject. I have been playing this game for 2-3 months now and since the beginning I have been using maps, 8 figure limit and the move 2 out of command rule. These rules were shown to me by Jesse and Sam (doubtofbuddha & lalato) and seemed to make the most sense to follow given the changes that were coming.
So far I have only run into one tournament (out of 5) that used tiles and 12 figure rules, the Underdark Prerelease. I must say that for my first time placing tiles I did a pretty good job. I even managed to out place Jesse in our match if you could believe that. I lost the match in the end but he did compliment me on my tile placement strategy. There were only a couple of people at the tournament that had larger than 8 figure war bands.
In the other tournaments I have played only one had a guy show up expecting 12 figure war bands and he was easily able to adapt what he had to the 8 figure rule. In a couple of cases it was the players first time playing with maps and they seemed grateful for the opportunity to get some experience doing so.
The most important aspects of running tournaments using “hybrid” rules is that everyone knows what to expect before they show up, everyone agrees with the versions of the rules being played and any major dissent with those rules is handled in a mature manner.
I personally am glad to have started playing the game this way and am thankful to Jesse and Sam, as well as others on this board, for helping me understand the changes that are coming up and for preparing me for what promises to be a very active and exciting Qualifier Season next year!
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 3:28 PM |
| I'm also on both sides of the arguement. As a local game player (about once a month), I play whatever format the organizers call for. Recently its been 500 points on maps. If they decide to play 12 figs with tiles, then I'm all for that too.
As a recent Vassal convert, the majority of people that I've matched up against want to play with 8 figs on maps - leaving the speed 2 rule alone. Since that's what others to play, that's what I've adopted. Having said that, I actually prefer playing with 8 figs on maps anyway, so Vassal works out for me.
So, since my personal opinion is that the new format is better, and since most of the people I want to match up with play that way anyway, and since I want to get a jump on folks that are slower to make the conversion, I'm focusing my attention on 8 figs/maps - but I try to put that disclaimer in regarding my posts. | |
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memphisto
Warrior
213 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 3:34 PM |
| | Our local tournament scene really likes a lot like what Doubt described: maps and 8 figures, but observing current spd 2 rule. We also vote if there's any doubt. I think the fact that the DDM community is having plenty of time to digest and incorporate many of the upcoming changes (albeit not in its complete form) to the rules is a good thing. A lot of the resistance and initial anger surrounding the changes has already been vocalized, and people are getting used to the idea of what will be large changes to the game. Derry, granted you bring up some valid points where the community could be suffering in the short term from so much focus on the future, I think the gradual discussion and incorporation of upcoming changes which are happening are a worthwhile, if intangible, trade-off, IMO. | |
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ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 3:44 PM |
| Well, my local area is still using 12 figures and tiles. This is what is official, this is what we play and I still educate folks on tile placement, etc.
That said, 90% of the conversation on the boards revolves around the 8 figure limit and maps. 90% of the non-campaign matches I see on Vassal do the same.
I would personally LOVE to see a position from WotC on this ... a firm position. Either (a) these are the rules and stick by them or (b) there is room for leeway. It worries me that a new player could show up with an idea about how the tournament would be handled and have a bad experience as there is no clear-cut answer.
I wish there was a significant constructed tournament happening in this time period ... I feel that having something like qualifiers or GenCon really help frame the environment. Right now there is a lack of focus ... I do like the regional qualifiers, sealed events, etc. but in reality more regular "large" constructed events would help the game I think. It's one thing to build a band for a local event with 3-4 rounds where a spoiler might win. It's quite another to build a band to go 5+ rounds ... the ideas, concepts and strategies are markedly different. With a goal like that on which to focus, I think the game would see much benefit. | |
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Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 4:28 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Right now there is a lack of focus ... I do like the regional qualifiers, sealed events, etc. but in reality more regular "large" constructed events would help the game I think.
This coincides with the argument I've made that WotC needs local gaming representatives (sales people if you want to call them that) who are pationate about gaming and teaching. They would go to stores, drop fun and exciting hints and otherwise keep the game focused. They could also pull together quarterly major tournaments that have prize support from WotC that really helps the game along.
I'm in no way implying that the delegates don't care or do a good job, but when it's someone's livelihood on the line, there is something more.
(sorry for this tangent, I'm not trying to hijack the thread and responded earlier specifically to this thread) | | | |
| DDM Constructed Champion 2006
derry
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 7:08 PM |
| Remember that Winter Fantasy will become one of the other major tournaments (like Gencon Indy and Gencon Socal.) The prize support for the main tournament (Vintage) is larger than either Gencon's.
http://www.consupport.com/index.asp?Con=39 | |
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Zyla
Underboss
1197 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 7:41 PM |
| | The 8 figure limit is good for 1 reason, it lets people use figures they LIKE using in a competative environment rather then pieces they are FORCED to use just to increase activations, and new it makes new players not need the previous low cost heavy hitters like the ogre ravager and orc warrior from previous sets. Once the 8 figure limit was announced all the threads that where discussing how new players will get cheap, low cost fodder from Harbringer and Dragoneye vanished. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 9:15 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by derry
Remember that Winter Fantasy will become one of the other major tournaments (like Gencon Indy and Gencon Socal.) The prize support for the main tournament (Vintage) is larger than either Gencon's.
http://www.consupport.com/index.asp?Con=39
Absolutley. It sounds like a great sealed event. There are plenty of strategy discussions you can have with sealed ... but limited in comparison to constructed.
When the 500 constructed starts happening then maybe the vacuum won't be there. | |
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John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 9:27 PM |
| I completely agree with Derry's sentiment, but I disagree what was said about "the mentoring and training of new players".
As a relatively new player/collector, I prefer the 8-figure limit because efficient fodder pieces are expensive, especially Goblin Skirmishers and Orc Warriors.
Of course, that is a very selfish reason for me to prefer 8-figure limits, but I'm guessing I'm not the only player to feel this way. A lot of other players don't have access to old common fodder pieces.
As of now, Harbinger/Dragoneye/Archfiend "common" is literally an oxymoron. A few of those "commons" are nearly as expensive as rares, and often more difficult to acquire.
Fracturing may be a negative, but from my point of view, the positives of starting to consider the new rules (maps, 8-figure limit, and even No-OOC-2-speed) outweight the negatives.
~John the selfish | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1364 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 10:23 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by derry
Just to confirm people's suspisions, I have not stayed "pure".
Yes, but are you master of your domain? | | | |
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Thenameless
Warlord
11730 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 12/07/2005 11:08 PM |
| | I agree with derry. Since we don't know what other rules will accompany the change to an eight figure limit, and removal of speed 2, we might be playing the game wrong. It's better (and simpler for the time being) if we play/discuss what remains official. | |
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Can of the Cave Beer
Commander
2838 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 11:18 PM |
| In my opinion, WotC should have "held" the information about the Speed 2 rule. The change from tiles to maps probably should have been held, too. But I'm fine with the change in warband size being leaked.
With all that said, I think it's unreasonable to expect folks to delay acclimating themselves to the upcoming rules (at least as we know/predict them)--It just doesn't make sense for a competitive player to go: "This is the way it's going to be played for the next big tournament, but I'm going to ignore all that for now..." It just doesn't make rational sense.
That's why WotC should have held some of the information--Because now we're focusing on all the changes and not on the current game. It's put the game into a bit of a lull. Experienced players are trying to transition and the neophytes are trying to acclimate to a mode of play that will be outmoded in a few months.
I normally appreciate every leak I can get regarding DDM (and I still appreciate these leaks), but the wrong decision was made in this case. | |
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BudLeiser
Warrior
218 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 11:25 PM |
| Maps: I love that this speeds up the game. Tile placement is a great strategy game in and of itself, but it not only slows down the setup time but the play time as well because you have to analyze the layout as you play.
8 Figs: Its amazing but my current army doesn't lose out or gain anything off this. It will however save me from buying 3 more expensive fodder pieces. (Yes the power level is the same in 8 or 12, if its 12 fig limit though I have to switch 2 guys out same power level wise just to get upto an equal activation count, in 8 fig I will actually field 11 units so its all good)
OOC 2: At first I was really excited about this, the speed 2 rule is so annoying. The more I think about it though im not so sure, commanders will lose ALOT of their worth. Im still looking forward to this rule change but im not as 100% sure as I used to be.
Those are my views now onto the real topic: It is a negative to see any kind of split in the community. However all of this preplanning is a good thing and will help players adapt to the new rules more gradually. BIG fast changes can drive players away before they are even accustomed to the rule changes. So while the conversations are a bit divided I think the gradual shift is FAR better for the community then waking up one morning and finding the game flip flopped!
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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Zyla
Underboss
1197 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 1:18 AM |
| | The same thing happens with the 12 figure limit, it still has 3, 4 or 5 of the same figure in them. | |
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Kissmykiester
Sergeant
525 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 2:25 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zyla
The same thing happens with the 12 figure limit, it still has 3, 4 or 5 of the same figure in them.
Yeah...but for the most part those multiple minis would usually be commons or uncommons therefore easier to get ie. Justice Archons or Chaarls. You have exceptions of course ie. Eye of Gruumsh and Orc Champ x 4.
I prefer the 12 figs vrs 8 as it allows for more variety. But having said that, I'm playing and building 8 piece warbands.
Maps...I miss the tactics behind tile placement...Maps...they are pretty to look at. I've played the fane map so often it's boring. But then again I play twice a week not including vassal matchups.
Likewise I'm starting to get bored of the rest of the maps.
In my local scene, and by general consenses, we're playing 8 figs max and on map while sticking to the OoC Spd 2 ruling until otherwise notified by WOTC. New players that have appeared are also encourage to do the same. | |
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Thenameless
Warlord
11730 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 12/08/2005 2:48 AM |
| | BudLeiser, you make a good point with respect to the gradual transition being better than being hit in the face unexpectedly. The problem is, we don't even know if we are playing correctly by implementing some of the new rules. Also, some play groups use some of the rules, and not all of them. You can't make everyone play one way, but it can be a bit cumbersome to discuss tactics and strategy when people are not on the same page. | |
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Aravis
Underboss
1155 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 3:14 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Feathers
I'm of two minds about this.
I like the new types of warbands that we are building with 8 figures, but at the same time, I also feel like we should continue to play with the current rules until they are officially phased out. That's one of the reasons why our recent Endgame tournament was 12 figure limits.
Actually, it seems we've already adopted at least one of the WD era rules, which is the use of maps. I think the 3 big changes people are experimenting with are:
1. Maps - Many of us have already adopted this. And we even play with maps at our local tourneys now in teh Bay Area. This seems the least disruptive of the changes. And has lots of benefits: makes setup faster, is more visually appealing to spectactors and new players.
2. 8 figure limits - This is a greater change than maps, but many players I believe secretly enjoy the ability to field much more powerful bands under the 8 fig limit. Bands like CE 5 hitter, triple FB, 4xGiths, are more powerful than their 12 figure counterparts (Quad, dual FB, triple Giths), and so I think people enjoy that. This one I am unsure about, and I wouldn't mind erring on the 12 fig side until we get more info about the WD era rules.
3. No spd 2 - I think everyone feels this is the biggest change and few people are playing with this rule. Mostly because people don't know if there is another drawback to keep no spd 2 under control. I don't advocate playing with this rule until March.
Its like your my Mirror Image :). I agree 100% with this. Love Maps, love 8 Fig and dont like the No spd 2 rule. I hope there is something we are missing about the No Spd 2 rule :P. | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 10:44 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by A Can of the Cave Beer
In my opinion, WotC should have "held" the information about the Speed 2 rule. The change from tiles to maps probably should have been held, too. But I'm fine with the change in warband size being leaked.
I'm actually happy with the map info and warband size info being leaked because of the way it was done. The designers/developers were quick to say in effect that when Wardrums releases, we'll all be playing on maps, they explained how the map initiative would work, and they said warbands would have an 8 figure limit. Not much gray area there - with the possible exception of how minions and summons will be handled.
For the OOC speed 2 rule, I don't like the way that was handled. As far as I know, while this has been generally confirmed, there was also the rumor of "associated changes", which haven't been documented yet. That makes people leery to experiment too much with this, because there may be important details that we don't know. | |
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| DDM Constructed Champion 2006
derry
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 1:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by johnny.quest
quote:
Originally posted by derry
Just to confirm people's suspisions, I have not stayed "pure".
Yes, but are you master of your domain?
LOL
For me to answer would fit my tasteless personality, but not be within the terms of use and get the thread banned. So, sadly I must decline to answer. | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 2:22 PM |
| | Excellent points, Derry. I would completely agree with you if it were not for the fact that two of the "future" rules- using maps and an eight figure limit- greatly increase the game speed. We are staying away from the speed 2 rule, simply because we don't know the exact wording of the new rule. But the eight figure limit and using maps have allowed us to fit more games into our games night, so in they went. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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XenoZephyr
Underboss
1083 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 5:14 PM |
| I have to agree with a couple of other people who have mentioned the Fun reason.
Before the announcement that we were going to be seeing an 8 figure limit, I was already playing about 6-9 figures in a warband for casual games anyway. They were just more fun and with the peices that I had, much easier to build.
With maps, again, it just makes the game easier and I think more fun. I'm really awful at seeing a valid LOS and placing my minis. With Tiles, the game was new every time. With the maps, I can learn from my mistakes a lot easier.
But I do hate being in between like this. For our local league we agree 8 figure limit and maps. We are not using No Speed 2 because we don't know the full ramifications and that rule really changes the "cost-i-ness" of the figures. Now Timber Wolves are THE BEST 5 figure limit and figures that have Independant might be costed a little too high now that it doesn't mean as much.
Plus, we don't have a rule that we can just point it.
I played my first couple of games on Vassal the other night. My opponent and I agreed on No Speed 2. Fine. He killed my commanders right away and then told me all my troops had speed 2. I was like HUH? He said that was how No Speed 2 works, that when you have no commander on the field that you then DO have Speed 2. I was like "where is that rule from" and he said "wardrums". I had to remind him that wardrums wasn't out yet and he said he read it on the Wizards board that it was definately in there. Anyway, without being able to point to anything I ended up saying fine and the found out that no, no one else I've talked to plays it that way, and it goes against what some people have said recently about no commander warbands post wardrums.
I think Maps is completely fine to do.
8 Figure limit you have to wonder about minions and such. We agreed on a 4 minion max rule and then the next week someone showed up with a Snig + Orog + Artemis warband. *sigh*
No Speed 2 I think that there really are too many questions to play this way at this point. But as others have mentioned, I want to practise as best as I can with the future rules. I'm trying to be a competition player and the competition is currently playing it...but I know, that's half your point.
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| Professional Fan of DDM
Shoe
Sergeant
804 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 10:21 PM |
| To put some perspective into this, and I'm sure more light will be shed at a later time, the release of information at GenCon about upcoming rule changes was driven by a desire to ensure that the community (you guys) would realize that we were taking steps to improve the play experience. We wanted you to know that maps would be available for minis play, and encourage you to incorporate them into your games -- not only does the game look better on maps, but it's easier to teach (and thus grow the game).
The hard part was deciding when to release the info. GenCon is the best venue -- most of the top players would be in attendance. At the same time, we knew we were still an extra set (underdark) away from the rules becoming official. In our minds, the best decision was to let you guys know what the rules would be, and let you know when they would be official, instead of leaving it for a surprise in February or March next year.
The result has been mostly as we expected. Some people are playing with maps, and Organized Play allows sanctioning with maps, but it isn't required. People are adjusting warband size - which helps tourneys run faster, and are for the most part seeing the benefits of doing so. But it's not like those that still use 12/Tiles are not having fun - we all grew to love the game in its 12/Tiles format, and we are all adopting 8/Maps at the rate that is comfortable for our local groups. I think that's ok.
Maybe the out-of-command issue should have waited until later - it's another example of a rule change that improves play, both in terms of speed of a timed game as well as in a first-timer's initial experience - but again, GenCon was really the best venue to discuss it. As a rule, it is harder to adapt into your games until you have a rulebook in front of you (or available for download), so I'd suggest waiting until that eventuality to adopt this rule.
All in all, I think gradual adoption of these rules isn't a threat - though I think it's easier to teach a new player the new rules. This season of the year is a bit of a lull, and major tournaments have the "scenario" posted well enough in advance that players will be able to build to 12/8 or Tiles/Maps easily enough.
My preference all along has been maps, ever since we started working with them. In our internal leagues, we could use tiles or maps, and I always recommended a map, since it was easier to take 45 minutes out of my day to beat play someone than prolong it with tile placement Ζ)]*. If the opponent insisted on tiles, I'd do tiles, but I don't think I missed out on an experience by using maps primarily.
I would also suggest that if you run a Sealed game with Underdark or earlier sets, that you use 12/Maps or 12/Tiles, since the boosters don't always do as well with 200-point 8-limit games. | |
Professional Fan of DDM | |
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Thenameless
Warlord
11730 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 12/08/2005 10:40 PM |
| | Thanks for the input Shoe. It's always nice to hear an official person's view on the game. | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 7:28 AM |
| First: I find the statement that there is usually a "lull" this time of year to be VERY accurate. I haven't played since GenCon, though it hasn't changed my approach to the game.
quote:
I would also suggest that if you run a Sealed game with Underdark or earlier sets, that you use 12/Maps or 12/Tiles, since the boosters don't always do as well with 200-point 8-limit games.
Shoe: I'd love some more feedback on this as it pertainers to WinterFantasy.
First: Are you or anyone else for the DDM team going to be in attendance? WF is growing quickly to be one of the top 3 events for DDM
Second: Ian Richards announced yesterday that League play at WF will consist of 2 boosters of Underdark, but play will be on maps. Now, that's fine for 90% of the MaxMini's users who will be in attendance. BUT, it will prevent 90% of the RPG guys from jumping into league play because they won't have any maps!
Back to the topic: I've moved on. I've done some demo's of DDM, and I certainly wasn't going to take out the tiles when I had those beautiful maps with me. And I was about to correct someone when they moved their figurs OOC, and realized that it was going to take far to long to explain all that. Thought about the change in rules, and let them run with it. Everyone who did the demo had a great time, and I strongly suspect that had I slowed the game down/made it more complicated with tile placement, and Speed 2, they would NOT have thought so.
Now that GenCon SoCal is over, our only other major event is WF, which will blur the line. I think its time to move on, and get new players thinking about the new rules. It's going to keep them more involved in the game anyway...
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 7:44 AM |
| Shoe mentioned the maps looking better and making it easier to teach the game. My experience has definitely echoed that. A few weeks back, one of my local FLGSs had a big GenCon-like demo day to celebrate their third anniversary.
Some of us ran a DDM demo that used maps and premade teams. We had four maps layed out and they were full almost all day. Because each game went quickly enough we ran people through a full game against a friend or one of us. We demoed to 40 people that day! I'm pretty sure the visual appeal of the maps got more people to try the game, and the speed of battle they encouraged helped people enjoy the game.
We have have already had 4 of those people show up for our regular tournament, and several others have said they will do so as their RPG schedule (first priority) allows.
Go maps!
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 7:53 AM |
| I understand Derry's caution, but I don't think it will impact most of the players of the game. A large portion don't play in tournaments or tournament rules. The groups that do play competitively can handle the transition back and forth between maps and tiles. The casual players and new players are more open to playing scenarios and wierd rules. The maps/tiles/activations details don't really matter as much to that crowd.
If tournament play was focused on moving new players into a "pro circuit" format like Magic or the Vrs system, then I would be more strict about staying closely to the rules. Unfortunatly for us hardcore players, the closest most players want to get to tournaments is a prerelease. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
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