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the_captain
Sneak
134 Posts
    
 | | 12/08/2005 2:23 AM |
| Hey all,
I just came up with this one in anticipation for a game at my FLGS next week. Please take a look and tell me what you think:
Iron Golem (epic) 266
Sword Archon 82
Marut 74
Healer 12
Dwarf Wizard 21
Dwarf Artificer 21
Aramil, Adventurer 13
Royal Guard 10
8 minis, 499 points
The IG and Marut are the front line beaters (duh!) and the Sword Archon's CE kinda counters the fact that Magic Weapon cannot be placed on the Golem, plus will make a nice support fighter for IG and Marut...the high attack and damage and all.
I originally wanted to have 2 Dwarf Wizards so that I can have plenty of Bigby's Slapping Hands, but since I only have 1 I'm going with a Dwarf Artificer, but the Artificer does have it's merits: Legion's SoF (which will affect my IG since the spell affects the warband, not the mini), and has anti construct spells incase my opponent tries using Golems as well. The Healer and Amaril will hide behind the IG and Marut while they do their thing, and the Royal Guard is the filler.
So what do you think? Does this warband stand a chance?
Thanks! | |
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Raging Maniac
Sneak
104 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 3:46 AM |
| I'm in no way an authority about this, but I think that the non-epic version of the Marut is a bit "squishy" (I can't believe I'm caliing him that...)to play a front-line role in an epic game. Plus the S.Archon could also fall pretty fast with its low HP. Given two relatively soft frontline figs there, your opponent could concentrate his attention on at least one of those two (or even both if he can bring one down pretty fast) to get up on points, and with high to-hit numbers in Epic, it might not take too long for them to achieve their goal.
I don't, in any way, mean it won't stand a chance. It's just that there will be little margin for error there. But if you really want to play an Epic IG/Marut band, why not try:
Iron Golem (epic) 266
Couatl 42
Marut 74
CoDA 45
Gith Monk 34
Dwarf Artificer 21
Aramil, Adventurer 13
Azer Raider 5
8 minis, 500 points
Couatl plays a multiple role as secondary commander, good CE to protect the titans, and has snake's swiftness that's better than the slapping hands. CoDA for a good Comm Rating plus two 30hp heals for the Marut, if your opponent concentrates on him. The Gtih Monk is your tile grabber, plus he can double up as an efficient secondary hitter (Stun DC18 on Save=10, anyone?). | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 12/08/2005 5:06 AM |
| AFAIK even being a warband affecting spell, you need to roll spell resistance, thus spell resistance all would negate Shield of Faith.
That's how it works for area effect spells at least...so iamgine it would be same.
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"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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TheDarklion
Sneak
131 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 8:03 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Bert the Troll
AFAIK even being a warband affecting spell, you need to roll spell resistance, thus spell resistance all would negate Shield of Faith.
That's how it works for area effect spells at least...so iamgine it would be same.
I'm pretty sure this is correct...and a good example too. | |
Crush your enimies, see them driven before you, and hear the lementations of thier women | |
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Teach
Sneak
140 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 9:10 AM |
| Minis with spell resistance can choose not to roll for it, but the iron golem has spell resistance all, which means that it can not benifit from any spell, including warband spells.
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the_captain
Sneak
134 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 10:51 AM |
| Thanks guys for the advise. I thought about adding in Coatl but the thing is Snake's Swiftness won't help the Iron Golem any. I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that way back in the day when Eberk first came out it was ruled that spells that affect the entire warband also affect affect minis with Spell Resist All because they are members of the warband being affected. I could be mistaken and I'll have to research this.
Another possibility for a commander can be the Half Orc Paladin. Same HP as the Sword Archon fro almost half the cost, and since is Lay on Hands is a special ability not a spell, it could be used to heal the Iron Golem if need be. If I do that, I can probably add in a Sword of Heironious for her high commander rating. | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 10:59 AM |
| "Heal effects and negative damage do not affect Constructs." Straight from the Glossary. Both frontliners in an IG/Marut band are unaffected by the healing, whether a spell or a special ability.
Bummer, eh? | | | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3523 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 12/08/2005 2:38 PM |
| I wonder how the Epic Iron Golem would really do in a tournament. You can expect to see Beholders. It's nice that the golem is immune to a lot of the stuff a Beholder can throw at it, but he's not immune to disintegrate or slow. Either effect would be a real pain in his behind. Another opponent I wouldn't like is an Archmage. Sure the golem is immune to most of what an AM can throw at him, but not the empowered melf's acid arrow. Having a Couatl helps to relieve that problem, but the Couatl is himself vulnerable to banishment (as is the Sword Archon). But maybe luring an Archmage in close to try to banish your commanders is a solid strategy.
I like the Dwarf Wizard for slapping hands because snake's swiftness is useless on an Iron Golem. Aramil is a nice idea, too, to further hamper attempts to pummel the golem. Maybe if you dropped the Marut, Healer, and Dwarf Artificer you could instead put in a Couatl, Githzerai Monk and Justice Archon. I don't know about the Royal Guard, either. Not sure off the top of my head what I'd do with the last 11 points, otherwise, though. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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Teach
Sneak
140 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 2:56 PM |
| | If you're looking for something to give more damage to your frontline beaters, try the Half-orc paladin, since anything you're going to want to do a lot of damage to is going to be level 7 or above anyways and he's fearless and has lay on hands, which is a special ability, not a spell, so you should be able to use it on the iron golem. | |
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Toxic_Rat
Sergeant
745 Posts
Lehi, Utah, USA
| | 12/08/2005 3:13 PM |
| We played in an epic tournament here and those of us that had Iron Golems found that they were generally too slow to make it into combat. I think mine only got 1 or 2 attack rolls in all day. Speed 4 really hurts them. I did have a beholder that managed to Slow the other guys IG, which pretty much took it out of the game. In retrospect I should have been using my Beholder to slide my IG forward to get it close enough to do some good.
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Any time you try to make something idiot-proof, someone always goes out and invents a better idiot.
Champion of Siege Equipment | |
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Damien the Bloodfeaster
Sergeant
885 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 12/08/2005 3:38 PM |
| I don't like the epic Iron Golem much at all. Too few hit points for its cost. I'd rather have two standard Iron Golems, and put the remaining points toward something else.
The best use I've made of the (non-epic) IG is:
Iron Golem x2
Beholder x2
Dark Naga
Lord Soth
Half-Elf Hexblade
Mind Flayer Telepath
The Golems' sole purpose in this build is to protect the Beholders, telepath, and commanders. The Golem immunity to fire synergizes well with Soth, and of course the Beholders can push the golems around as well. The synergy between Soth and Beholders is already well documented. Tie the golems to Soth (for Requires Commander); his hit points, decent AC, and the beholders' ability to heal him makes him probably the most durable commander you could use for such creatures.
Because of their slow speed, Iron Golems work best when you can force the enemy to come to you. In this case, that's the job of the Beholders. Four eye rays per round is no joke, even if you are screening with something like an Iron Golem or Zombie White Dragon. If they screen with fodder, sooner or later they'll need to bring their heavy hitters to bear, leaving them vulnerable while they cut through your golems.
If I HAD to use an epic golem...not sure. Maybe Epic Iron Golem + Beholder + Dark Naga as my core, and then see what else I have available and how many points are left. | | | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 3:51 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Teach
...he's fearless and has lay on hands, which is a special ability, not a spell, so you should be able to use it on the iron golem.
Healing doesn't affect Constructs, whether a spell or a special ability. [:(] | | | |
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Raging Maniac
Sneak
104 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 8:28 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Orion72
"Heal effects and negative damage do not affect Constructs." Straight from the Glossary. Both frontliners in an IG/Marut band are unaffected by the healing, whether a spell or a special ability.
Bummer, eh?
Dang, I forgot about them being constructs and all. What a noob-y thing to do.[:)] I won't post warbands while I'm at work ever again.[:p] | |
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the_captain
Sneak
134 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 10:25 PM |
| Alright guys after considering your advise and being reminded of the noobie mistake I was making (thinking I can heal constructs) I tweaked the warband. Keep in mind that this isn't my fist choice of minis (I wish I can swap out Marut for a Stone Giant but since I dont own one I dought I'll have one for the next game) but anyway, here's what I got now using the minis that are available to me...
Iron Golem (epic) 266
Marut 74
Half Orc Paladin 48
Redgar, Adventurer 20
Rask, Half Orc Chainfighter 52
Dwarf Wizard 21
Amaril, Adventurer 13
Hill Dwarf Warrior 4 (or any fodder worth up to 6 points)
498 points, 8 minis.
I'd rather start with an Epic IG, Stone Giant, and the HO Paladin as a core and built the rest of the warband around them, but since I cant do that atm this is the best that I can come up with. I'm not too concerned with healing (as 2 of the 3 of my big hitters are constructs) so I've decided to just try to lay down more hurt than my opponent can do to me.
The nice thing about Rask is that he's fast and hits hard (a rare thing for LG) and he can keep my opponent ocupied until Marut catches up, and then the two of them together will lay the smack down until IG can get into the mix. Aramil and the Dwarf Wizard are there for Emfeeblement Rays and Slapping Hands, and the Hill Dwarf is just there for that 8th activation. I suppose the HO Paladin can heal Rask if need be, but I'd imagine he'd be dead by the time the Paladin catches up, so if he foes get that heal off, it will just be icing on the cake.
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wildger
Sneak
67 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 10:29 PM |
| quote:
If I HAD to use an epic golem...not sure. Maybe Epic Iron Golem + Beholder + Dark Naga as my core, and then see what else I have available and how many points are left.
Interestingly, this is the warband that I am working on. Please check the current threads on this forum under my name.
Iron Golem (epic)
Beholder
Dark Naga
Duergar Champion
Green Dragon
Helmed Horror
Kobold Miner
Total = 499 pts. 7 figures. Beholder has double activation
There is a lot of argument about which commander I should choose. Urthok is simply not strong enough. Orog is good but costs a lot of point. The question is whether you will put Orog in the front line or at the back. Then, some people suggest having 2 commanders. One of them will be Snig. The issue then becomes whether you need that many folders and whether you need to control the activiation. Finally, it is felt that the Blackguard is probably the best commander. However, if you use a beholder. Dark Naga may be a reasonable choice to support it.
Epic Golem is strong. The biggest weakness is that it is too slow. If you look at the Drow Post or the Magma Keep map, you will realise that the control of the choke point is very important, never mind the present tile format. Speed is important. So, one of the way is to use a Beholder to force your opponent to come to get you.
That is simply not enough. With all the undead and constructs around, Beholders are meeting a challenge. The truth is that the Beholder is so powerful that people learn a way to deal with it. So, you need a fast hitter as well. Steel Predator comes to my mind but it is expansive. Therefore, I opted for a Green Dragon. It is not a big hitter but it is fast. In the current environment, so many people laughed at my warband saying that I would not be able to catch up the victory points and subsequently became quiet when they realized how fast the dragon was.
The warband is based on the Epic Iron Golem but alone it is not enough. So, I add in the Helmed Horror. So far, not a single person questioned about it. Now, how to use the rest of the 37 points is very debatable. Should I use a Chraal or a Duerger Champion? I decided to drop Chraal because I am not sure how long the Dark Naga can survive. Besides, using Chraal with only one commander, it is more attempting for your opponent to go after it.
Will the addition of a low cost commander be beneficial? For example, the Snig to give you more activation since its CR is low. Use Urthok with a 3 point folder like warrior skeleton for its +2 melee attack? It sounds good but you have one less hitter. I do not have a good answer. I prefer the skeleton over the globin skimisher because of its cold immunity. | |
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the_captain
Sneak
134 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 10:47 PM |
| | Yo wildger if you want advise on your own warband then start your own thread. Please don't hijack mine. Thanks. | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 10:09 AM |
| My biggest concern with the Epic Iron Golem (as many others have pointed out) is that he can too easily be ignored. I agree with wildger (and others) that you need to have some sort of threat that forces your opponent to come to you. The beholder is a nice threat.
However, assuming you want to stick with your Iron Golem/Sword Archon base, something like this might work:
Sword Archon
Epic Iron Golem
Champion of Yondalla (Warband Building)
Halfling Ranger x4
6 points on a fig of your choice
With the Champ of Y, the Halfling Rangers shoot for +15/+15 for 5 magic damage. Thats a potential for 40 ranged damage per round with a decent attack bonus. Not sure how effective this would really be. | |
Rhane
"The focus is sharp in the city..."
Have/Want List
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CSchroder
Sergeant
415 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 10:49 AM |
| | I crushed too Epic Iron Golems (two different warbands) with an Epic Kord at a recent Epic tournament. While the Epic AC is very high for the Iron Golem, there are many figures with high attack values that can still hit it such as the Epic Kord. With 3 attacks doing 30 or 40 damage, the Iron Golem falls fairly quickly IMHO. Also, Epic Iron Golems can't take advantage of Snake Swiftness while other Titans can. I love the look of the figure though and would love to hear some success stories. | |
Charles AKA The Beardless One, Proud Member of Team Amish | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 11:02 AM |
| | Nitpick: Epic Kord does 40 or 50. I know because I plan on using him at our 500 tourney this weekend, with Ryld or the eladrin. Even if only his first attack hits, plus a snake's from Crow Shaman, that's 90 damage per round. | | | |
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CSchroder
Sergeant
415 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 2:29 PM |
| | Thanks Orion for the correction! I was thinking of the non-epic Kord. | |
Charles AKA The Beardless One, Proud Member of Team Amish | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 12/10/2005 5:01 PM |
| | I've been toying with a quad normal iron golem band in the back of my head, perhaps with a beholder and Lord Soth as a commander, then a dark naga for slapping hands and lightning bolts- since everything is immune to electricity, it really is pretty easy to get the bolts where you want them. | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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