Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
    
 | | 12/08/2005 3:22 PM |
| With regard to the Assault Scenario the following is true
1) The game does not end when a Warband is eliminated
2) The game only ends at time, or when the point value is reached.
(Check the floor rules for exact wording)
Any way there must to be a way to take advantage of this by making your warband less than the point value (probably by 5-8 rounds of victory points), and including enough damage over time so that you will win AFTER your band has been eliminated. Such bands will invariable focus on Poison, Mordenkainens Sword, etc.
My attempt
1x Inspiring Marshal
3x Archmage
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323 points
Now 323 points means that it WILL take, at LEAST 8 rounds for your opponents to win (s/he needs 8 rounds of victory points), which means you should be able to do 675 damage with you Mordenkainens Swords in that time, plus however many EMM, EAA you can get off. Should be enough to take out your opponents band, or at least enough of it to win with 1-3 rounds of victory points...
Your thoughts, attempt, ideas? | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 12/08/2005 4:32 PM |
| | Does it really say the game does not end when one warband is eliminated? I am pretty sure it does end. | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 4:37 PM |
| Not for Assault. First to reach 200 wins.
The game technically goes on if a warband is eliminated and neither side has scored 200 pts yet. But in practice, with bands hovering around 198-200, once you kill a band, you just need 10 tile points to push you over the edge, and that can have happened in the course of the match or could happen at the very end. Thus giving you the victory.
Gnolaum is trying to break this rule and find a way to win even after losing his band, thanks to multiple swords. | |
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TruNutral88
Sergeant
522 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 5:59 PM |
| Do you look for loopholes that hard? [:D] jk
Might work, don't have an idea tho. | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 6:07 PM |
| | I thought if you were making a band you HAD to get as close to the point value if you had not maxed the figure limit. I realize in you example all it would take would be 4 xeph warriors for 12 pts. It also seems that if you did only go with 4 figures you run the risk of loosing an archmage or two before they can really get that damage flowing. Thats my take anyway would be fun to try out at any rate | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 12/08/2005 6:32 PM |
| | One other way is if your opponent is running Frenzied Berserkers who will eventually burn themselves out and give you 52 more points. | |
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HidesFromHurricanes
Warrior
289 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 7:12 AM |
| | This strategy seems to hinge on the judges interpretation of how many rounds a lone player would take and how fast he had to take his rounds. If you have no figures to be involved, then there is no reason to claim stalling on a person playing against a non existant warband. Maybe in your example warband you keep a non-epic Rikka off board for the whole game to force rounds to be played. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 8:10 AM |
| Here's one sure fire way to abuse that rule.
Play on the Lost Temple.
There are no assault scoring areas on the lost temple ... if you land your swords right (on pieces that cost more than the archmages) then you win. HP loss will eventual destroy the target. You could concievably run a single archmage and drop the sword on any two figures who's cost is more than 98 points or even a single figure (LSD?). You'd have a difficult time doing so since you lack activation control, init, etc. But you could do it. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 11:24 AM |
| | Oh wow, yeah the Lost Temple completely breaks it. Might as well throw in another Archmage.... | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 12:22 PM |
| An even better way would be to take the match seriously, and play it to win rather than trying to exploit victory condition loopholes.
What? What did I say? [:0] | | | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 12/09/2005 12:55 PM |
| | Go right ahead and try. It'd be an easy win for your opponent in a tourney ... | |
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Draxle
Sneak
127 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 1:44 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gnolaum
With regard to the Assault Scenario the following is true
1) The game does not end when a Warband is eliminated
2) The game only ends at time, or when the point value is reached.
(Check the floor rules for exact wording)
Any way there must to be a way to take advantage of this by making your warband less than the point value (probably by 5-8 rounds of victory points), and including enough damage over time so that you will win AFTER your band has been eliminated. Such bands will invariable focus on Poison, Mordenkainens Sword, etc.
My attempt
1x Inspiring Marshal
3x Archmage
--------------------
323 points
Now 323 points means that it WILL take, at LEAST 8 rounds for your opponents to win (s/he needs 8 rounds of victory points), which means you should be able to do 675 damage with you Mordenkainens Swords in that time, plus however many EMM, EAA you can get off. Should be enough to take out your opponents band, or at least enough of it to win with 1-3 rounds of victory points...
Your thoughts, attempt, ideas?
Trying to figure out what you are going to accomplish with this band. Yes you only have 323 pts.. You could easily put in 4 more creatures for 0 points. Use Kobold miners, they are worth 0 victory points when they are killed. That would help you with activations as well. You might also be able to squeeze in a couple rounds of Victory Area pts with them as well not that that would be needed to much in this band.
So you try to cast swords on enough of your oponents creatures so when they die of the swords you have more pts. Thats actually a fairly interesting concept. There is one bad part and that Sword has a DC20 check, which while it isn't easy to make, its probably going to be a 50/50 or less for the other player. If half of the saves are made you more then likely won't get enough pts to win considering if you place a single sword on a high hp figure 150+ it will take 10 rounds to kill him through activations if you don't get any EMM or EMAA's off on the same target.
Epic Iron Golems and bands using creatures like that would make winning even more difficult. Beholders etc.. Its a fun idea and would that would be neat to try in a fun setting but not in a SCI Tourny.
Drax | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 1:49 PM |
| No DC on Mordy's sword, it's an automatic hit. And for SR guys, the AM has Spell Penetration.
My point was, why would you ever play this way, even if you could? It's using the DDM rules to play some other game, IMHO. | | | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 3:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Don't get me wrong; I think that kind of abuse is silly and petty.
But, if you're going to do it, you may as well do it as simply and efficiently as possible.
I absolutely agree. Right now over on the WotC boards I'm asking 'This can't be intentional', some of the response I'm getting back is 'Makes sense to me', which just boggles my mind. So I'm going to ride it for all it is worth.
Actually I think the strongest Epic band right now (for the lost temple) is a single Archmage. Maybe with an Inspiring Marshal... | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 3:25 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Draxle
Trying to figure out what you are going to accomplish with this band. Yes you only have 323 pts.. You could easily put in 4 more creatures for 0 points. Use Kobold miners, they are worth 0 victory points when they are killed. That would help you with activations as well. You might also be able to squeeze in a couple rounds of Victory Area pts with them as well not that that would be needed to much in this band.
Umm, Kobold Miners are LE...
quote:
Originally posted by DraxleSo you try to cast swords on enough of your oponents creatures so when they die of the swords you have more pts. Thats actually a fairly interesting concept. There is one bad part and that Sword has a DC20 check, which while it isn't easy to make, its probably going to be a 50/50 or less for the other player.
Umm, no DC on the sword.
quote:
Originally posted by DraxleEpic Iron Golems and bands using creatures like that would make winning even more difficult. Beholders etc..
Beholder/Epic Iron Golem are the only units that might cause trouble. Thus I'm up in the air as to do 4 Archmages (enough to kill and Epic Iron Golem in 1-2 turns), or simply go with 1 Archmage and kill something bigger than himself.
quote:
Originally posted by DraxleIts a fun idea and would that would be neat to try in a fun setting but not in a DCI Tourny.
If anyone tried to pull a stunt like this for 'fun', I'd show him a new and unpleasant definition of 'fun'. The only reason I'd allow this ^%$#^%^%$#^% is because the DCI floor rules enforce it.
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Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 4:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gnolaum
Right now over on the WotC boards I'm asking 'This can't be intentional', some of the response I'm getting back is 'Makes sense to me', which just boggles my mind. So I'm going to ride it for all it is worth.
I think the response could more fairly be characterized as "Not worth worrying about."
Lost Temple will not be legal once War Drums comes out. At that point, the exploit goes away. Most people I've talked to aren't using the Lost Temple even now, preferring to try out the new maps early.
So, the issue is affecting only a small subset of people (those using the Lost Temple) over a short period of time (the next three months). And even among those people, the vast majority will choose not to use this exploit, even if they are aware of it.
I don't see why you feel it's necessary to "ride it for all it's worth." Of course that's your choice, but I don't imagine many people feel as strongly about it as you do. | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 5:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
There are no assault scoring areas on the lost temple ... if you land your swords right (on pieces that cost more than the archmages) then you win. HP loss will eventual destroy the target. You could concievably run a single archmage and drop the sword on any two figures who's cost is more than 98 points or even a single figure (LSD?). You'd have a difficult time doing so since you lack activation control, init, etc. But you could do it.
Well... sure, there aren't any printed Victory areas. However, if you're using that map, without any victory areas, then obviously you aren't playing Assault.
More, if you are playing Assault, then there's is a way to do it, as I was told by someone, either Mike Donais or maybe Rob Heinsoo, when I asked on the boards ages ago how to play Assault on Lost Temple map. Every square on the opponent's half of the board that is adjacent to a wall (other than the edge of map wall) is an assault scoring square.
- Dagni | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 5:16 PM |
| Actually I believe that's the assault scoring rule for playing on Dragon's Hoard, Dagni.
The Assault rule I had heard for Lost Temple is the large areas of difficult terrain are the scoring areas, but I don't remember where I heard that.
I expect it doesn't really matter, as I'm guessing you can count the number of sanctioned 500 point assault tournaments that will take place on Lost Temple in the few remaining months where Lost Temple is legal on one or less hands. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 5:28 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
There are no assault scoring areas on the lost temple ... if you land your swords right (on pieces that cost more than the archmages) then you win. HP loss will eventual destroy the target. You could concievably run a single archmage and drop the sword on any two figures who's cost is more than 98 points or even a single figure (LSD?). You'd have a difficult time doing so since you lack activation control, init, etc. But you could do it.
Well... sure, there aren't any printed Victory areas. However, if you're using that map, without any victory areas, then obviously you aren't playing Assault.
More, if you are playing Assault, then there's is a way to do it, as I was told by someone, either Mike Donais or maybe Rob Heinsoo, when I asked on the boards ages ago how to play Assault on Lost Temple map. Every square on the opponent's half of the board that is adjacent to a wall (other than the edge of map wall) is an assault scoring square.
- Dagni
There were rules at one time but they've fallen out of the floor rules so are "no longer official". Derry has them on his website though for safe-keeping and most folks I know do/would use those.
Like I said, I can "break" the situation ... but I certainly don't advocate anyone playing that way. That would be a table-flipping move. | |
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BudLeiser
Warrior
218 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 5:43 PM |
| | So is it in agreeance and its understood that this theory would work? If thats the cause then he deserves to ride it for what its worth. Its important to find flaws like this, and even while we (myself included) poke fun or ignore them its better for the game overall to know about and take care of exploits, not ignore them. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 5:59 PM |
| Even without the truly broken Lost Temple, there is still the 323 point band that I'd like to see if it can be exploited.
Not that I like to exploit, but that I like it not to be possible to exploit. | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 8:27 PM |
| It states in the rule book on page 3
How to Win
In a skirmish, two or more competing
warbands fight. You win by eliminating
all enemy creatures.
so that alone may get a judge to rule you loose even if the swords are still in play. I know the DCI does not specifically mention this but it also does not specifically mention the other skirmish rules mearly states they are used. I'm not a real good "rules lawyer" but this is definatly something to consider in this discussion. | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/10/2005 1:07 AM |
| | @Fearfrost: That is correct. But if you play Assault, then you have to follow the DCI floor rules. And that being the case, the victory condition is first player to get to 200 pts. | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 12/10/2005 1:08 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Feathers
@Fearfrost: That is correct. But if you play Assault, then you have to follow the DCI floor rules. And that being the case, the victory condition is first player to get to 200 pts.
True I am just pointing out that since the DCI rule do not specifically mention this rule not being in effect it could be argued that when you loose all your figs you loose.
I'm not trying to sound argumentative just think this is an interesting "loophole" and would like to see a way to close it. I think that most people would agree that if you loose your whole warband you should loose the game but there are a few who might not. | |
Asystole is a stable heart rhythm | |
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Aramus
Warrior
181 Posts
| | 12/10/2005 4:22 PM |
| | I agree with fearfrost, thats how I took the rules as well. Plus whats the fun in the game if you cant win thru skill and must rely on technicalities | |
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NightMoor
Sergeant
448 Posts
| | 12/10/2005 6:23 PM |
| This topic reminds me of the early days of MW Dark Age and the infamous, ahem...please pardon the expression, "Dyke'n'Trike" army, the objective being to score some assault-style points and then let your one big mech (which happened to have many many clicks of salvage) run itself into salvage, ending the game with you ahead on points.
Thing is, despite that army's advantage in a majority of scenarios, no one played it. I suspect it's because people who play these games at a high level actually want to enjoy the skill aspect of it. Yes, that is a slam. | |
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