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Sirohk
Commander
3929 Posts
    
USA
 | | 12/18/2005 11:50 AM |
| Yes, the Drider Sorcerer is currently banned from tournament play. But with the addition of Angelfire and Underdark and all of the new high power figures and competitive warbands that have improved saves, better attacks, damage reduction, and such, how do you think the CE Drider Sorcerer Warband of days gone by would fair in today's DDM gaming environment? Further, how would it fair if in 8 figure limit? On maps? No more speed 2 rule?
Drider Sorcerer Warband:
vs G.A.S?
vs Snake Eyes with JA's?
vs Tripple Chraals?
vs QUAD Helmed Horrors?
vs Orog Warlord warband?
vs Duergar Champ based warband?
vs Battle Plate Marshal dwarf warband?
Just food for thought.
Cheers.
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
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Aravis
Underboss
1155 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 12:06 PM |
| | Well, vs GAS it would go down fast. 30 Hp=insta death. | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 12:13 PM |
| Stil overpowered. Versus G.A.S. it could allow for the exremely fast killing of the young master via transportation, and the blur would reduce the effectiveness of unavoidable strike quite a lot.
Versus Snake Eyes it just adds so much maneurablity to CE that it's really hard to protect the couatl.
And drider+heavy+something fast and with flying (harpy?) would so totally reck tri-chraal (commander assassination made easy)
The transposition spells would basically negate the HH's flight advantage, and blur would make them miss some of the time as well. Then it's just a slugfest between 4 HHs and 3-4 orc champions or red sams or whatever, which the horrors will loose since they just don't hit as hard.
One major problem with the drider is that it can support already strong pieces insanely well | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 12:59 PM |
| I don't think the DS is insanely overpowered, and I've heard that that's not why it was banned to begin with. I heard that it was banned due to the amount of square counting that its use entailed, and how much that slowed the game down for both sides.
There are a number of pieces that can make the DS have a bad day before it gets close enough to use transposition. Conceal 6 and SR are only going to protect it so much. | | | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 1:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Aravis
Well, vs GAS it would go down fast. 30 Hp=insta death.
the drider sorcerer has 45 hp plus conceal, meaning that it can survive an unavoidable strike with stunning attack in range of the young master- with a 1/4 chance of not taking any damage at all. Also, a good CE player will make sure that the monks must take AoOs to get to the drider, and lightening bolts can really screw with monks as well
also, I'm thinking that the ogre ravager might be a very strong piece versus GAS when supported by a teifling, having a 10% chance of outright killing any one of the pieces in the opponant's warband with any attack is pretty brutal, and since he's got two attacks...
To show why I think the drider is strong against GAS, here's a hypothetical senario:
A Gith monk uses US and stunning attack on an orc champion that has already activated while in range of a young master. The orc champion takes 30 damage but makes the stun save. The drider then activates, switching out the orc champion for an eye of gruumsh, who promptly uses both attacks on the gith monk....
OR
the drider then activates, and switches an orc warrior next to the young master for the eye of gruumsh...
That only works if there's something next to the YM, but what about things with melee reach?
OR, the drider activates and switches out a creature one space away from the YM for a half fiend ogre...
OR
the drider casts a lightening bolt at the gith monk
the drider is difficult for any band to fight because instead of being a huge threat even in of itself, it simply compounds existing threats by expanding their mobility and making it harder to see what an the drider player will strike next.
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Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
| 2004 D&D Miniatures Champion
Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 1:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sirohk
Yes, the Drider Sorcerer is currently banned from tournament play. But with the addition of Angelfire and Underdark and all of the new high power figures and competitive warbands that have improved saves, better attacks, damage reduction, and such, how do you think the CE Drider Sorcerer Warband of days gone by would fair in today's DDM gaming environment? Further, how would it fair if in 8 figure limit? On maps? No more speed 2 rule?
Drider Sorcerer Warband:
vs G.A.S?
vs Snake Eyes with JA's?
vs Tripple Chraals?
vs QUAD Helmed Horrors?
vs Orog Warlord warband?
vs Duergar Champ based warband?
vs Battle Plate Marshal dwarf warband?
Just food for thought.
Cheers.
The Drider both gains and loses from the 8 figure format.
On the one hand, you no longer have a huge amount of eggs to throw at opposing hitters or commanders, and then swap them out for your heavy hitters.
On the other hand, with fewer eggs on the enemy's side, it's much easier to pick your targets for bolting and for transposition. It may be a little harder to get a quick point advantage with a well placed lightning bolt, but you can afford to concentrate the damage more narrowly.
Of course there have been a number of pieces introduced that significantly reduce SOME aspects of the Drider's effectiveness (Helmed Horrors and Couatls negate lightning bolts, Rikka makes an awesome Drider-stopper, Beholders can stop a lot of stuff, etc.), but no figures introduced single handedly have the ability to remove all the benefits of the Drider with reliability and absolute efficiency.
But the question remains: Would CE still hold a grip over the competitive circuit if the Drider were still in play?
It's unfortunate that we'll never know the answer to that, but we could speculate pretty wildly on either side of the argument.
One side we might argue that if the Drider had remained in play this long, techniques and specific "spoiler" warbands designed just to counter it would have been perfected by now.
On the other side, we can see how the removal of the Drider opened a lot more possibilities in the metagame, and new warband types were able to flourish. If she were never banned, some things like Inspired Frenzy, ranged warbands, or certain LE builds might never have risen to power.
The truth is, the Drider's powerlevel hasn't changed. Other factions have become more competitive both because of her removal and because of the introduction of efficient figures of their own.
Still, the ability to one-bolt an Inspiring Marshal off the board, or fling an Orc Champion 12 spaces, and then take two attacks on a Human Blackguard that "thought" he was safely protected is not to be overlooked. Most importantly, the amazing power of Baleful Transposition hasn't changed a bit, and that alone would make the Drider worth playing. Add on the fact that a blurred Red Samurai is still scary, and that line spells are still wickedly powerful, and you have yourself a piece that would very likely merit inclusion in almost every CE warband.
It's almost certain that as the other factions have naturally grown in power, the CE warbands formed around the Drider would have lost some potency. So it's quite likely that CE warbands would be unlikely to dominate as they once did. Still, the Drider is a nasty, nasty piece, and I have a feeling if it were still legal you'd still be seeing a LOT of them. | |
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| 
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 1:22 PM |
| Actually, I think the answer is that the Drider would absolutely still be a key figure.
As Kiddoc said, there is no single figure that counters the entirety of what the Drider brings to the table. Blur, L-bolts and transposition ... all in a single package. Even if there are some counters, it would still be quite powerful. Few commonly used new figures have out-right immunity to the l-bolt (JA, Helmed Horror, maybe a few others) and the line is VERY powerful. Look how useful the Dark Naga's bolts are ... they are really VERY comparable figures when you get right down to it.
Second, CE is HARDLY far from the top faction. Recall that a CE band came basically one die roll away from winning it all this year. Give them back the Drider and they WILL be very strong.
Third, one of the biggest problems CE has is a lack of a really viable figure in the 30-point range. Would you rather have a Grimlock Barbarian or a Drider Sorcerer? They are equally squishy once hit ... and they fit in the same point-bracket. There is NOTHING better for that price bracket in CE. At all. Look at all of the Balor conversations where folks say they wish there was a good 30-ish point piece so you could run Balor, one 40-pointer, one 30-pointer and a tiefling. That's a very needed bracket in CE ... and there's nothing better in that hole than the Drider. | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 12/18/2005 1:22 PM |
| I tell you, I'd love to run the drider with a Death Slaad or two.
The long and the short of it is that the drider is still a good bit undercosted for his abilities. I'd probably occasionally run him if he were 50pts. | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 2:04 PM |
| The factors for removing the drider:
Undercosted for effect
Slows the game down a great deal
abilities not characteristic for the faction
All still exist. It shouldn't be in the format. I'm still glad for the banning.
As for its effect if it was still around? It would make games for new players who have to face it not much fun (as it did before). It would still be an auto include in every CE band. It would still make a lot of cool warbands not very viable.
Combined with a mounted drow patrol you could pretty much put any hitter you wanted, in any place you wanted with almost no way for your opponent to stop it. It would be a nasty combo. | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2129 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 3:18 PM |
| | will we get another drider down the line? | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
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| 2004 D&D Miniatures Champion
Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 3:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by wicked cool
will we get another drider down the line?
If you mean: "Will we get another creature of the type: Drider"
Then I think the answer is an obvious--YES! Of course we will, maybe sooner than we think?
If you're asking: "Will we get another CE creature with Transposition?"
Then I hope the answer is: Never! Transposition is far too powerful and far too time intensive. If it's going to be in the game, put it in epic and make the creature cost 400 points. I don't want to see that spell again, ever. Evermeet Wizard is a different story, but I won't get off on that tangent right now.
Or if your question was: "Will we ever get another creature that needs to be banned?"
The answer probably is: Yes. If this game goes on long enough, and there's no set rotation, and they make enough pieces, you will see a piece that slips through somehow. I see this as a necessary evil. The design team has to PUSH the skirmish game and innovate to make it interesting. Even with the best playtesting, when you're looking at the interaction between thousands and thousands of individual figures, maps, and game formats, sooner or later you will probably get an "oops!"
It happens in the world of game design. We're all human after all. [:D] | |
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NightMoor
Sergeant
448 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 4:35 PM |
| There is no doubt the Drider would still be an awesome figure in this, or any, metagame. Against GAS Conceal is the perfect tool against Unavoidable Strike, autodamage is still the ideal counter, and transposition is still the best way to save your heavily-damaged hitters or cause easy flanks on something with high defense, not to mention how much easier it makes hunting down the Young Master (without which the monks are back to wimpy mode).
There would be no reason *not* to include a Drider in your CE warband. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 4:47 PM |
| I think in the current metagame while the drider would still be very powerful there are enough counters for it that it wouldn't be as invincible as it was. I do think it could be allowed and not see a constant win anymore. It's cost is really the only reason that it can't be replaced as Chris said. There's not a great replacement for it at that same cost range. Grimlock Barbarians and Mounted Drow Patrols while nice are of course nowhere near as powerful. I do think if they were to make a new Drider it could be essentially the same cost and stats but without the transposition and it'd be a well costed piece. Personally I still have no clue where R&D got that spell for the drider in the first place as it's not even close to the spells driders can cast normally. Of course in RPG they usually use levitate, invisibility and web to screw opponents up and then offensive spells if needed before poisoning them for food. [:)] It'd actually be nice for a creature other than the ettercap to have web.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11730 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 12/18/2005 5:34 PM |
| | The Drider Sorcerer was to CE, as the Inspiring Marshal is to CG. A staple in almost every competitive warband. Both have gaming-breaking tech abilities. Apart from the much publicized reason of "the Drider Sorcerer consumes too much time in a tournament", I believe that there was another reason it had to go. If you read the Miniatures Handbook, CG is supposed to be the faction of choice if you want good spellcasting. When GOL came out, the Drider Sorcerer overshadowed every other spellcaster from every faction. Today, perhaps only the Archmage can compare as a viable threat. The problem is, with the Archmage half your warband's gone. The Drider Sorcerer at a cost of 30, leaves so much flexibility for different warband builds, that IMHO it still outruns the Archmage. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 6:17 PM |
| When they banned it, I remember saying that it owed in part to figures that were coming in the future that would be awesome, but would become broken in the Drider's prescence.
Looking at the Death Slaad, which may have been one of the figs in mind [rend seems obvious], it certainly seems like transposition may push it up in effectiveness. Granted, I don't think the Slaad may become unstoppable with a Drider in tow, but I can understand the Designers being nervous about introducing an insta-death effect on the metagame with that sort of support. | |
Champion of the Prestige Class where mages focus on telekenesis and start throwing people into the ceiling and uber stuff like that.
Desirer of a Commander Effect in CG that grants Sidestep to followers with a ranged attack. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 6:42 PM |
| Well there always was that possibility with the Drider and Red Wizard. Dropping a first turn Fireball was just as easy then as it would be to Chaos Hammer now. I still think the Drider is very powerful though I think CE is still far too one trick pony at the moment without it.
As far as CG being the best spellcasting faction it is and always will be even in the presence of the Drider. The difference between the two chaotic factions when it comes down to point costs is simply fact that CE has lower costs for it's comparable pieces. Orc Champ is 13 points cheaper than a Frenzied Berserker because CG's costs are supposed to be higher for most creatures. Thusly it's spellcasters are also higher. That's just how they are designed.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Avatar of the Tank
Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 12/19/2005 4:43 AM |
| RW lost his best friend and almost never sees play anymore[:(].
But I'm glad the drider is gone.[:)] | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 4:49 AM |
| | I concur with the "it would still be overpowered" crowd. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
| DDM Australian Champion 2005
psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 8:27 AM |
| | Yeah, the Drider really was the only thing that pushed the Red wizard into playable territory... a shame. | |
Champion of the Prestige Class where mages focus on telekenesis and start throwing people into the ceiling and uber stuff like that.
Desirer of a Commander Effect in CG that grants Sidestep to followers with a ranged attack. | |
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ickthegreat
Warrior
291 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 8:45 AM |
| | having played one, just resecntly in a fun game. yes they are still very powerful still. the 8 limit does not hurt them at all. | |
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Captain_Duergar
Skirmisher
18 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 11:15 AM |
| | The DS should not be banned yes it is extremly good for its point cost and your right there is no other creature like it in CE. And that is the problem CE does not really have any support staff except for the DS. all wizards had to do was make it so that both targets needed to be with in six squares. I found when I played it and when most people I played with I the lightning bolts are rarly used. Plus they dont last long cause everyone goes DS hunting when they see one. CE in all the books have very few sorcerers but the few sorcerers CE has are extremly powerful. If they are going to remove the DS forever wizards needs to release a few new support staff models for CE. | |
Determination equals Power | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 1:16 PM |
| Let's not turn this into another should be banned/should not be banned discussion. I like the Drider as much as anyone but it's just how it is for the time being.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 1:26 PM |
| | Given the strenghtening of the other factions, even if they brought the Drider back, I wouldn't play CE. Still having too much fun with LE, LG and CG. I don't think that they are as overpowered as before, given the strength of the other factions. Broken for the cost, probably, but manageable at this time. | | | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 1:36 PM |
| Two words why the Drider Sorcerer should remain banned:
Death Slaad | |
I am not gone. | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 1:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kiddoc
We're all human after all. [:D]
Speak for yourself, foolish mortal! [}:)] | | | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 12/19/2005 6:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Two words why the Drider Sorcerer should remain banned:
Death Slaad
Are you expressing that because of the Deadly Rend or the Chaos Hammer, or both? Yeah I can see it now against Lawful factions. Chaos Hammer, Transposition DS for another DS, Chaos Hammer, move OC in to attack, Transposition OC for DS, Double attack w/ Deadly Rend, Transposition DS for another DS, Double attack with Deadly Rend, Charge in OC to help finish off anything.
I do think that is manageable to some degree though. Gith Monk swoops in and bases Drider, Drider tries to run away getting OOC and conceal check, Drider hurt, stunned and making morale check. Or Aspect of Kord swoops in to base Drider, then see sentence before except without the stun. Or Rikka swoops in and bases Drider, etc. Archmage swoops in and Mordy's swords the hell out of the Drider. Really it comes down to better die rolls to see who can take advantage of their gimmick first.
Something I'm going to suggest at some point is to allow the Drider in the upcoming Vassal tournaments. Do a special No banned figures tourney and see what people play. Drider bands and of course major spoilers for them. That way we can see how it would perform in the current meta.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10445 Posts
United States
| | 12/19/2005 6:31 PM |
| Hmm, this is a little like picking at a scab . . .
So, what do you all think about the Drider Sorcerer in a Red Wizard band (i.e. a Drider Sorcerer that could only be played with Warband Building)?
Does the piece then occupy the status of deserving to still be banned in the current environment? My gut says no because the Red Wizard is sufficiently overcosted that the combined 93 points isn't out of the question for the two.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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wildger
Sneak
67 Posts
| | 12/20/2005 1:16 PM |
| | You don't feel that Drider Sorcerer is too powerful at its low point cost? You probably have never been the receiving end of it. Baleful transportation and lightning bolt x3 is very powerful for only 30 points. Besides, it is not an unique. You can have more than one copy in your warband. If it is still legal in all tournaments, it will dominate the play. And you cannot see that? | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10445 Posts
United States
| | 12/20/2005 6:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by wildger
You don't feel that Drider Sorcerer is too powerful at its low point cost? You probably have never been the receiving end of it. Baleful transportation and lightning bolt x3 is very powerful for only 30 points. Besides, it is not an unique. You can have more than one copy in your warband. If it is still legal in all tournaments, it will dominate the play. And you cannot see that?
Are you asking me? (Without quotes, I'm curious.) Sure, I know how tough the piece is. I was planning on playing a Red Wizard / Drider Sorcerer band in last year's qualifiers until the piece was banned. I'm just of the mind that the piece is about ten times more dangerous in CE than it is in LE.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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