Lead Moderator
LCS
Underboss
1896 Posts
    
 | | 02/13/2006 7:29 PM |
| http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/doccenter/home
The big changes I noticed in the revised version:
1) Setup initiative allows the winner to choose who sets up first
2) The Cave of Pain scenario does NOT include the Assault rules.
3) expected, but the Epic Assault reward is explicitly stated as 25 points
4) Drow Outpost added to legal maps
There may be others, but these are what I noticed with a quick skim through the docs.
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 02/13/2006 8:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
The removal of assault from cave of pain is kinda dissappointing - I thought assault was going to be the basis for everything?
I thought so too, but it does make sense. This puts the focus of the CoP round squarely on the smackdown. This does however, have the potential to play into Point Denial stratagies...
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 02/13/2006 8:27 PM |
| Here is another disappointment:
The link (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mini/tournaments) provided for stat card interpretations brings you to a page with no link to Guy's clarifications. Further that page can confuse people because the Intentional Draw = 1 point ruling is still posted there...
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 02/13/2006 10:53 PM |
| mmm also I didnt see this in there before.
quote:
Exception: Prerelease miniatures can be used ONLY in the prerelease they are given out at and only if there are enough that all entrants received the miniature as part of the entry product.
thats pretty cool. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 02/13/2006 10:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
Here is another disappointment:
The link (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mini/tournaments) provided for stat card interpretations brings you to a page with no link to Guy's clarifications. Further that page can confuse people because the Intentional Draw = 1 point ruling is still posted there...
Pat E
Yeah that needs fixed. They don't update from Guys rulings often enough for there not to be a link there. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Teach
Sneak
140 Posts
| | 02/13/2006 11:44 PM |
| Personally, I was kinda hoping that drow outpost would remain banned. I know a lot of people like it, and it is a really interesting map, but it plays so different from all the other maps and puts some bands at such a disadvantage that I would prefer if it wasn't included in the list of maps.
Perhaps if the bridge had been 3 wide instead (making it impossible for a single large to block the bridge).
But you know, I'll live. Somehow. [:D] | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/13/2006 11:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Teach
Personally, I was kinda hoping that drow outpost would remain banned. I know a lot of people like it, and it is a really interesting map, but it plays so different from all the other maps and puts some bands at such a disadvantage that I would prefer if it wasn't included in the list of maps. ...
This is true of most of the maps - they favor some bands, but really hurt others. That is why high commander ratings will be so important. | |
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TheBlackFlail
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 02/14/2006 12:22 AM |
| I really didn't want or like assault as the basis for all formats. Assault is just another kick in the teeth to LG (as a whole), which is rich in speed four figures (in addition to all the other, overwhelming disadvanteges to speed four). LG continues to be supplied (and will likely be supplied in the future) slow beaters, which go straight into everyones RP box, never to see the light of play. None of the current or past successful LG builds features speed four beaters and speed four fodder continues to (IMO) hamper LG.
I would prefer to see format styles that don't reward speedy figures, since speed is already a massive, nearly insurmountable advantage vs. the slow LG standards. | |
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Damien the Bloodfeaster
Sergeant
885 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 02/14/2006 1:30 AM |
| I wouldn't say that's true anymore of LG. The top few bands for LG these days involve githzerai monks (very fast), justice archons (speed F6), and the large silver dragon (moderately fast). Couatls are also speedy. Maybe dwarf warbands will finally become viable with War Drums, though I doubt it, but that's the only slow LG warband I can think of that might actually have a chance.
One other advantage LG has is that high commander ratings = improved chance at gaining terrain initiative, which means that, on average, LG warbands should get to pick their terrain and/or starting location more than other factions. (With certain exceptions, of course, such as Ryld and Beholder/Soth bands.) | | | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
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LeClaire
Warrior
225 Posts
| | 02/14/2006 8:36 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Damien the Bloodfeaster
I wouldn't say that's true anymore of LG. The top few bands for LG these days involve githzerai monks (very fast), justice archons (speed F6), and the large silver dragon (moderately fast). Couatls are also speedy.
I suspect that the key element of TheBlackFlail's statement was; "... None of the current or past successful LG builds features speed four beaters and speed four fodder continues to (IMO) hamper LG..."
The examples you mentioned just prove the point. I luv me my dwarves, but they're just not the go-to-guys when playing timed, assault matches.
quote:
One other advantage LG has is that high commander ratings = improved chance at gaining terrain initiative, which means that, on average, LG warbands should get to pick their terrain and/or starting location more than other factions. (With certain exceptions, of course, such as Ryld and Beholder/Soth bands.)
LG has zero Commander 8's, but some really nifty 7's, I will admit. However every faction has access to at least a solid 6. CG could even creep up to an 11 with Ryld or Ghaele Eladrin + Large Copper Dragon (not to suggest they're likely to, just able to... maybe to help a Kord band lock in the initiative or something). But even if you just assume a 3 or 4 for the other guy to your 7, that's still a pretty small edge on a d20. Especially if your warband lives or dies by it. Anyone that's taken a few Beholders into Hellspike feels my point.
I do indeed realize that you said, "... improved chance ... on average..." I'm just putting in my two bits. | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/14/2006 10:14 AM |
| | There were no competitive Speed 4 bands even back when there was no Assault points. The simple fact of the matter is that Speed is important on your hitters, and as of now, they have yet to make any Speed 4 guys who have had enough abilities and general to make up for their incredibly poor speed. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 02/14/2006 10:27 AM |
| I think that is what I was looking for in a totally new format in the new triad - something where speed was not so crucial.
Maybe the teleport map will take care of that for slow minis, but I doubt it. | |
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hardinjmm
Sergeant
573 Posts
Madison, WI
| | 02/14/2006 10:53 AM |
| They have, however, made the Beholder and the Gauth, which (although not LG) show how a slow unit can be effective.
Cheers,
Jon | | | |
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 02/14/2006 11:28 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by hardinjmm
They have, however, made the Beholder and the Gauth, which (although not LG) show how a slow unit can be effective.
Cheers,
Jon
Notice though Jesse said speed is important on hitters. Beholder and Gauth are not those. | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/14/2006 11:30 AM |
| | Yeah. Low speed can work on commanders and tech. On hitters its a death sentance. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/14/2006 11:57 AM |
| In Bounty, if a figure like the Chraal is eliminated because the commander is eliminated, you still get the +10 points for it, right? Same applies to summoned things when you kill the summoner?
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 02/14/2006 12:08 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
In Bounty, if a figure like the Chraal is eliminated because the commander is eliminated, you still get the +10 points for it, right? Same applies to summoned things when you kill the summoner?
Dave
I would think so. Also I presume the Balor gets Bounty for enslave. The iffy question would be units eliminated by slayer of Domiel/Artemis. Do you double the bounty, or only double the units value and add the bounty once.?
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
928 Posts
| | 02/14/2006 12:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
In Bounty, if a figure like the Chraal is eliminated because the commander is eliminated, you still get the +10 points for it, right? Same applies to summoned things when you kill the summoner?
Dave
I would think so. Also I presume the Balor gets Bounty for enslave. The iffy question would be units eliminated by slayer of Domiel/Artemis. Do you double the bounty, or only double the units value and add the bounty once.?
The floor rules specify that you double the base cost and add the bounty only once.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 02/14/2006 12:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by lynchpt
[quote]Originally posted by XAos
The floor rules specify that you double the base cost and add the bounty only once.
Pat Lynch
Thanks, I must have missed that sentence when I read them. | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/14/2006 1:01 PM |
| It is far too late for this type of sentiment, but:
You may wish to hold your opinions until you've actually tried out the rules. We all think we have a great understanding of how new DDM rules/figures will play out, but our opinions tend to change drastically after a little play testing.
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TheBlackFlail
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 02/14/2006 1:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
There were no competitive Speed 4 bands even back when there was no Assault points. The simple fact of the matter is that Speed is important on your hitters, and as of now, they have yet to make any Speed 4 guys who have had enough abilities and general to make up for their incredibly poor speed.
I agree. But assault based formats just mean that any future speed four figures that come out, that might possibly have an otherwise viable power/cost ratio, are rendered nigh useless. And, according to what the designers have implied to us, slow and steady will continue to be a feature of LG, occasional trick figures aside. Successful LG bands just don't play like LG is supposed to play. | |
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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 02/14/2006 1:11 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by TheBlackFlail
I agree. But assault based formats just mean that any future speed four figures that come out, that might possibly have an otherwise viable power/cost ratio, are rendered nigh useless.
Depends on other factors as well. e.g. If the Arcane Balista is a cost-effective ranged unit. Then a Speed:4 LG warband could use the Ballista to force the enemy to attack. That tactic would fail on Tiles. Since your opponent only needs to create a pocket where a unit can get assault points. But on most of the current maps I have seen it should work.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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Damien the Bloodfeaster
Sergeant
885 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 02/14/2006 1:21 PM |
| I'm guessing that teleporter map, as mentioned above, will be a boon for slow bands.
WRT the Balor and enslave, I think that you actually would not get bounty for it until the mini was actually eliminated (killed or routed off the board), since bounty specifies elimination. The enslave ability states you get victory points for it when you enslave it, but not that it counts as eliminated. | | | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 02/14/2006 1:23 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Damien the Bloodfeaster
I'm guessing that teleporter map, as mentioned above, will be a boon for slow bands.
WRT the Balor and enslave, I think that you actually would not get bounty for it until the mini was actually eliminated (killed or routed off the board), since bounty specifies elimination. The enslave ability states you get victory points for it when you enslave it, but not that it counts as eliminated.
Here is the Ensalve abaility, note that is says "counts as eliminated".
Enslave (Each enemy that fails a morale save must immediately another morale save; if the second save fails, that enemy counts as eliminated for victory points, is no longer routing, and is a member of your warband for the rest of the skirmish) | |
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Damien the Bloodfeaster
Sergeant
885 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 02/14/2006 1:37 PM |
| Yah, I just checked that out myself, LCS. Note that the mini ONLY counts as eliminated "for victory points," but in this case that would certainly include the point bonus for Bounty.
It would not be considered eliminated for any other non-VP matters, such as the Red Tide ability. | | | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 02/14/2006 1:41 PM |
| quote:
And, according to what the designers have implied to us, slow and steady will continue to be a feature of LG, occasional trick figures aside. Successful LG bands just don't play like LG is supposed to play.
Best sentence I've read about LG competitiveness in a long time. Yes, the designers have made LG competitive, but not by having those minis really be LG minis.
I may post this on the WotC site tonight. I still want to understand what I'm supposed to do with all those dwarves I own. | |
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Champion of Juiblex | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/14/2006 1:57 PM |
| | How are monks, large silver dragons, maruts, and justice archons not lawful good? | |
I am not gone. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/14/2006 1:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
How are monks, large silver dragons, maruts, and justice archons not lawful good?
I think the feeling is those pieces don't play like LG is "supposed" to play - they're too fast or maneuverable or whatever.
I'm not sure I agree, but it is a sentiment I've heard from more than one person.
EDIT: Also note that the teleporter map should be very nice for slow LG bands. High commander ratings help ensure that you get to use it a lot too. Turn 1 tile points are pretty much limited to pieces with burrow and incorporeal on that map as I recall, which is also good times for LG. | |
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Damien the Bloodfeaster
Sergeant
885 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 02/14/2006 2:04 PM |
| | I'm looking forward to seeing how the Warpriest of Moradin fares. It plus the Dwarf Ancestor might have good synergy for its close wounds ability (since all dwarf followers would be considered within range 6 of the warpriest). Its commander effect would be particularly useful if you could somehow get a fig with improved countersong into your warband. | | | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 02/14/2006 2:58 PM |
| Well, the vast majority of LG minis have high AC, low damage, and slow speed. That implies to me that is how LG is supposed to be, otherwise it wouldn't be that way. I also believe that designers have previously stated that (but I'm at work and don't have time to look for that right now).
Unless dwarves are going to start getting a speed boost, not to mention paladins and others, I'm not sure how that changes.
Justice archons break almost every "rule" when compared to other LG minis. They fly, their attack bonus is low, but they have a cool damage effect - there is almost nothing about them that is similar to other LG creatures. They look a lot more like goliath barbarians to me than a dwarf or halfling or paladin.
I'm at work right now, so I can't take time to count all the minis, but what is the ratio of speed 4 minis in LG to faster creatures? That to me implies that is how LG is "supposed" to be, otherwise it wouldn't be that way.
Hopefully, doubtofbudda, you realize this is a debate/conversation, not a personal attack on LG. You may remember me as one of the loudest complainers about LG's competitiveness over the last 18 months.
My point was that I'd like to see speed 4 minis be competitive in at least one format. I'm not convinced they are yet (and I'm not sure 1 map fixes that). | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/14/2006 3:24 PM |
| Speed 4 bands can be competitive in non-assault formats, I think. All they have to do is be able to survive longer than their opponents once combat starts.
The problem isn't the speed. It's everything else. All (or nearly all) the massive damage units are fast: FB, Orc Champ, Eye of Gruumsh, AoK. Most of the good speed 6 units do 15+ damage. If there were plenty of speed 4 units that did 20 or 25 damage, had a good AC and lots of hit points, then they'd last long enough to deal with the higher-speed pieces.
But, they don't. I know that "speed kills" and I've learned that lesson over and again. But, let's say there were some speed 4 piece with these stats....
Level 12
AC 23
HP 95
Attack: +18/+13
Damage: 20 magic
Speed 4
Fearless
Cost: 46
Would two of these make a solid enough core? Even at speed 4? If not, crank up the stats some more (+20/+15 for 25 magic, 125 hp, AC 25). At some point, the speed isn't the issue anymore (except possibly regarding assault points). Right now, there aren't any speed 4 pieces that can do what need to be done.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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