Kissmykiester
Sergeant
525 Posts
    
 | | 03/09/2006 7:50 AM |
| Some players from my neck of the woods are starting to whine about how the teleport map slows the game. Of course they've made this accessment without actually PLAYING on the map but from reading the many remarks made on WOTC and here at Maxminis especially during Winter Fantasy.
Many questions have arisen and likewise been answered by Guy since then. But still...is there any truth to the map slowing the game or being harder for newer players to catch on? OR should I start offering the whinesome players some cheese?
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Vassal Tournament Constructed Group#
1 & 2-Champion
"You are, what you do, when it counts".
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Sucessful Trade - Pan(2), Lexander (2) Trilistria (1) | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10445 Posts
United States
| | 03/09/2006 7:59 AM |
| Yes, the map is hard for new players to play on successfully. I chose the map in my release tournament because my band wasn't all that strong, but I had a commander 6, and I wanted to be able to win some games on map alone--which I did.
It's not hard to play on once you get how it works. And, I haven't yet noticed that it's really deeply altered the value of any particular kind of band.
Like other maps, high speed is crucial. With speed 8 figures, you can plug up the teleporters on your "side" of the map (sides are a lot harder to judge on this thing) allowing you to get your pieces out of the starting area relatively unmolested.
If you don't get your own pieces onto the teleporters early, you're asking for a whole world of pain.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 8:46 AM |
| | The games I have seen played on it are actually quicker. Quick and brutal. You spend extra time on the first turn of positioning then things get ugly really fast. I haven't seen 2 skilled players face off on it with finely tuned constructed bands yet though, so that may have an impact on speed. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
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orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 8:48 AM |
| | Haven't used it, but it looks pretty solid. Ity may be a little complex, but can really turn the battle imho. It also allows you to push the limits, and force the opponent to watch ANY angle. | |
My Trading Thread | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 8:54 AM |
| It can be a chaotic mess. I LOVE it![:D]
Also, the easiest way to get tile points is with incorporeal on it.
Those middle exits are also interesting to work around. Morale saves have gotten even bigger in Wardrums. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10445 Posts
United States
| | 03/09/2006 9:49 AM |
| After a couple rounds, things can get dicey. Pieces are already engaged (too often, near the middle of the map), and several of the teleporters are now empty of guards. Any move you're considering has to be measured against where your opponent's pieces can end up (which can take some real thinking).
I had a few games where we really were embroiled in some heavy planning because a quick move could have been fatal.
So, while the games are often very fast (in large part due to the placement of the exit squares), I don't think they'll have to be fast.
This is a bad map for people to play on if they already have a tendency to be a little slow if the judge of the event is likely to call people on stalling. It's very easy to get twisted up and feel like you're not sure what you should do. It's not a map for people who aren't experienced with it.
(In many ways, this is similar to the Drider Sorcerer. Some Drider Sorcerer bands might not have looked so tough to people who didn't understand the problems of transpositions.)
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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sienar
Sergeant
640 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 9:54 AM |
| If you try to hard to figure out all the combinations and permutations possible, your head will explode. After Round 1, it should be really clear how things are going to work out, for the most part.
Once you have a figure squatting on a teleporter, your opponent can't use it. Remove it from your calculations as far as where your opponent can teleport to. Same for teleporters on the other side of the map. Sure, your opponent can go there, but unless they are running away, who cares?
The games ktatroe, Felagund, and I have played have shown bshuggs initial findings, too. The games move pretty quick.
The big thing to watch out for is trailing with weak figures and exposing commmanders to blind-side teleporters. Those kind of things will lose you key figures real fast. | |
[http://www.hordelings.com/frontend/profiles/profile.php?user_id=22] | |
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Kissmykiester
Sergeant
525 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 11:10 AM |
| So should I use the Teleport map for an upcoming sealed tournament I'm organizing? The guys are not new players except for maybe 2 of them. The other 12 are pretty good and are experience players. So would you use that map?
It also burns me that we paid $$$ for a starter, only to have 3 out of the four maps usable. And if we do not use the teleport map for the tournament it's like flushing $$$ down the toilet.
Seriously, I'm wondering why even bother organizing it if only 2 maps out of four can be used...you see my dilemma. | |
Vassal Tournament Constructed Group#
1 & 2-Champion
"You are, what you do, when it counts".
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Sucessful Trade - Pan(2), Lexander (2) Trilistria (1) | |
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juice
Warrior
175 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 11:55 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kissmykiester
It also burns me that we paid $$$ for a starter, only to have 3 out of the four maps usable. And if we do not use the teleport map for the tournament it's like flushing $$$ down the toilet.
Seriously, I'm wondering why even bother organizing it if only 2 maps out of four can be used...you see my dilemma.
The sheer number of queries Guy has attended concerning the teleportation map and the experience encountered by players that have tried the teleportation map strongly suggest that it may not be suitable for use in a sealed tournament by players who has not used it at all.
For me, I am comfortable with any map but IMHO, having one or two maps fixed for a sealed tournanment that are less complicated would speed up the game, so that players could focus on the essence of sealed tournament, namely, how to pick the best of your pulls and fight with what you have pulled.
Seriously, I dont see why not using a particularly complicated new map for a sealed tournament would be considered flushing monies down the toilet. The map would still be used for normal games and constructed tournament.
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 11:59 AM |
| we were lucky enough to have the fixed demongate maps.
It was a "leveling" map and was the standard map for our tournament.
I do think that the tiamat map will be fun for sealed. I'd use that as a standard map.
The other effect of a standard map is that playing repeatedly on it teaches you a lot about it. | |
Let it be. | |
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skraig
Skirmisher
9 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 12:12 PM |
| Our sealed tournement also feature the Fixed Deomngate. We had all the games played on it.
You do get familiar wiith the map! I don't see it as a problem. Since it isn't a constructed game removing map choice just makes warband building a similar problem for each player.
It will emphasize the draw but sealed always does. | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 2:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kissmykiester
So should I use the Teleport map for an upcoming sealed tournament I'm organizing? The guys are not new players except for maybe 2 of them. The other 12 are pretty good and are experience players. So would you use that map?
It also burns me that we paid $$$ for a starter, only to have 3 out of the four maps usable. And if we do not use the teleport map for the tournament it's like flushing $$$ down the toilet.
Seriously, I'm wondering why even bother organizing it if only 2 maps out of four can be used...you see my dilemma.
If you play on ONLY the Dragon Shrine map, you will have a great tourney, worth every penny. It's a really good, very fun map. The WD prerelease at Winter Fantasy was on that map, and that map only, as they didn't get fixed maps there either, so Ian decided to just have the whole tourney on one map. It worked great.
I think if you try playing the whole tourney on the teleporter map, that would work well too. Everyone's at the same level of (in)experience on the map each round, and it's a fun way of getting to know the map.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 2:33 PM |
| | I'd also like to point out that Field of Ruin is a very simple, balanced map that was fun to play on. We played our 2nd release day tournament on it, and decided it was so much more fun than Fixed Demongate that we played the 3rd tournament on it too. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 5:14 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I'd also like to point out that Field of Ruin is a very simple, balanced map that was fun to play on. We played our 2nd release day tournament on it, and decided it was so much more fun than Fixed Demongate that we played the 3rd tournament on it too.
I've played an entire tourney (10 games!) on the Dragon Temple map, and an entire tourney (5 games) on the Broken Demongate map. Of the two, I much prefer the Dragon Temple map. Never played on either of the other two yet.
When everyone's still new to the maps, I must say I really like playing an entire tourney on the same map. Everyone gets the same opportunity to really get a good idea what the map is like. Conversely, if four different maps are being used that no one is familiar with, then you might face someone on a map you've never used before when it's his third straight game on that map.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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neilasaurus
Sneak
134 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 6:26 PM |
| | I didn't expect it to have SO MANY teleporters. | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 6:48 PM |
| I was pretty surprised just how many teleporters there were also. I figure there'd be like one in each corner or something, I was very surprised heh.
I have yet to play on it yet. Does it slow things up tho? I mean I'd hate for there to be a map that does the exact same thing as the Drider did, and make everyone count out stuff constantly. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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Kissmykiester
Sergeant
525 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 8:48 PM |
| Well I know Juice hates the map...told me in no uncertain terms his feelings about it.[:D] Especially since he's participating in the tournament and so his opinion doesn't really count.[)]
After reading everyone's post I'm now more incline to let the players choose one of the three maps available to them - Dragon Shrine, Field of Ruin or the dreaded Teleport Map. Player's choice.
Guy has answered any and all queries I had about the teleport map with regards to AoO, Charging, flying creatures into occupied squares, burrowing etc....so I'm confident that any questions raised will be answered in a timely manner. Most of it's kinda intuitive too.
Anyway, I'll keep an eye out for 'Stalling' but that's my only concern. Got a one minute sand hourglass/minuteglass(???)that will finally see use. This way, the chances of everybody getting to play on each different map increases. Should be fun for everybody...I hope.
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Vassal Tournament Constructed Group#
1 & 2-Champion
"You are, what you do, when it counts".
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Sucessful Trade - Pan(2), Lexander (2) Trilistria (1) | |
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Eliminator53
Sergeant
628 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 9:06 PM |
| I haven't actually used the teleport temple yet but I do like the overall design. It looks like what was prieviously posted, that as soon as someone starts teleporting to a certain direction the battle will ensue. Looks very close combat friendly (not to hard to figure this one out) and should see many brutal games. I plan on using one tommorow at our local tourney w/ a quad beater band and will proceed to let the carnage begin!
Edit: WooHoo! Knight Finally! | |
Champion of Tavern Stripper
Knight of Knights
Squire of Death Giants
Somethin-or-another of Big Arse Swords | |
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neilasaurus
Sneak
134 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 10:08 PM |
| In some ways it speeds up the game. If one player sees a teleport that looks promising that throws him in the middle of the enemy, the battle will be decided quickly. And the placement of the exits means that a failed morale save will send you off the board real quick.
However I dread facing a player that is unfamilar with it and gets flustered in a tournament. I would like to finish at least one round. | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 10:43 PM |
| | I've only just taken a serious look at the map. Does it seem to anyone else that player B is at a significant disadvantage? The teleporters AND victory areas for B are all at least a few squares farther away than any for player A. | |
My H/W list is not current...
Trade Reference List
OLD Trade references (191) | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 3:29 AM |
| | I've only looked at it also. Maybe my next game should be played on it just so I can see what its all about. I hope that Player B isnt *that* bad off, because while both sides dont need to be exactly equal, I'd hate to see one get royally screwed over. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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juice
Warrior
175 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 4:59 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kissmykiester
Well I know Juice hates the map...told me in no uncertain terms his feelings about it.[:D] Especially since he's participating in the tournament and so his opinion doesn't really count.[)]
You misunderstood me. [:(] I do not hate the teleporter map at all. In fact, I am very much intrigued by the variety of options and maneuvers that are open to me on this map. At the same time, I am also vey much concerned over how the teleportation effect on this map would (1) slow down game play and (2) lead to wrong interpretation or ruling by the player or judge.
quote:
Originally posted by Kissmykiester
After reading everyone's post I'm now more incline to let the players choose one of the three maps available to them - Dragon Shrine, Field of Ruin or the dreaded Teleport Map. Player's choice.
I seriously hope that you would take into consideration the reservations made by me or some other local players concerning the teleportation map. I appreciate your efforts in organising this sealed tournament. Heck, your efforts and enthuisiasm have developed the local DDM community from a meagre 3 or 4 players to the current 25 or more players . I may rave or rant but at the end of the day, I would support and abide by your final decision but I hope that such decision would be made judiciously. [:)]
quote:
Originally posted by Kissmykiester
Guy has answered any and all queries I had about the teleport map with regards to AoO, Charging, flying creatures into occupied squares, burrowing etc....so I'm confident that any questions raised will be answered in a timely manner. Most of it's kinda intuitive too.
I would not agree that most of the rulings made by Guy concerning the teleportation effect would be considered intuitive. The sheer numbers of queries raised as to how teleportation effect intereact with other effects such as movement, slowed attack, charging, teleportation, flying, burrowing, incorporeal wall transformation are self-evidence that players could not agree on the resolution of such effects and hence Guy's clarifications were required. In fact, there was even a conflicting ruling made by a WOTC's representative, though Guy stood by his ruling notwithstanding.
quote:
Originally posted by Kissmykiester
Anyway, I'll keep an eye out for 'Stalling' but that's my only concern. Got a one minute sand hourglass/minuteglass(???)that will finally see use. This way, the chances of everybody getting to play on each different map increases. Should be fun for everybody...I hope.
I seriously hope that you would not pull out that dreadful hourglass of yours when players are deliberating on how to move on the teleportation map. As it is, the mind boggles when counting how a creature could arrive from A to B using the various teleporters available. Forcing a player to make a move under duress is certainly not fun. [B)]
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Kissmykiester
Sergeant
525 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 7:09 AM |
| quote:
quote:
Originally posted by juice
quote:
Originally posted by Kissmykiester
Well I know Juice hates the map...told me in no uncertain terms his feelings about it.[:D] Especially since he's participating in the tournament and so his opinion doesn't really count.[)]
You misunderstood me. [:(] I do not hate the teleporter map at all. In fact, I am very much intrigued by the variety of options and maneuvers that are open to me on this map. At the same time, I am also vey much concerned over how the teleportation effect on this map would (1) slow down game play and (2) lead to wrong interpretation or ruling by the player or judge.
Base on what other players above have posted, I really am confident that it won't slow down the game. I think the chances that the questions brought up by players here in Maxminis and WOTC might not prop up in our sealed tourney. But let's say they do. Again I'm confident that I'm able to answer any questions brought up thanks to the recent flurry of questions asked to and answered by Guy.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Kissmykiester
After reading everyone's post I'm now more incline to let the players choose one of the three maps available to them - Dragon Shrine, Field of Ruin or the dreaded Teleport Map. Player's choice.
I seriously hope that you would take into consideration the reservations made by me or some other local players concerning the teleportation map. I appreciate your efforts in organising this sealed tournament. Heck, your efforts and enthuisiasm have developed the local DDM community from a meagre 3 or 4 players to the current 25 or more players . I may rave or rant but at the end of the day, I would support and abide by your final decision but I hope that such decision would be made judiciously. [:)]
Of course I have, but I also have to take into account the other players who don't play as often, voicing their unhappiness at paying $$$ and only using two maps. As it stands, I think the 'teleport map' adds a little sense of 'danger' of 'unpredictability' that players will come to appreciate. I hope the demostration this coming Wednesday with the map will help ease any players concerns. Remember, the players at Winter Fantasy didn't have this luxury.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Kissmykiester
Guy has answered any and all queries I had about the teleport map with regards to AoO, Charging, flying creatures into occupied squares, burrowing etc....so I'm confident that any questions raised will be answered in a timely manner. Most of it's kinda intuitive too.
I would not agree that most of the rulings made by Guy concerning the teleportation effect would be considered intuitive. The sheer numbers of queries raised as to how teleportation effect intereact with other effects such as movement, slowed attack, charging, teleportation, flying, burrowing, incorporeal wall transformation are self-evidence that players could not agree on the resolution of such effects and hence Guy's clarifications were required. In fact, there was even a conflicting ruling made by a WOTC's representative, though Guy stood by his ruling notwithstanding.
Guy is the last word in rulings. Despite the WOTC's rep standing in the company and community, Guy has the last word. It like how you're the Singapore version of Guy, I mean have you ever noticed me to question or second guess you AT ALL when it comes to rules in our games or on vassal. Questions regarding movement, slowed attack, charging, teleportation, flying, burrowing and all been answered by Guy. (EDIT: Guy has ruled on the whole incorperal, Wall transformation, teleport question)
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Kissmykiester
Anyway, I'll keep an eye out for 'Stalling' but that's my only concern. Got a one minute sand hourglass/minuteglass(???)that will finally see use. This way, the chances of everybody getting to play on each different map increases. Should be fun for everybody...I hope.
I seriously hope that you would not pull out that dreadful hourglass of yours when players are deliberating on how to move on the teleportation map. As it is, the mind boggles when counting how a creature could arrive from A to B using the various teleporters available. Forcing a player to make a move under duress is certainly not fun. [B)]
LOL, I'm not that mean, man. I don't force anyone to move under duress unless a player takes bloody 10 mins to activate a single mini. And we're talking a Kobold Miner!!! | |
Vassal Tournament Constructed Group#
1 & 2-Champion
"You are, what you do, when it counts".
-------------------------
Sucessful Trade - Pan(2), Lexander (2) Trilistria (1) | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 10:53 AM |
| I haven't seen the map slow play. Sure a few extra count-outs for placement but typically warbands are engaged much quicker and running off the map in the center helps get the routing dudes off the map.
I have played epic, 200 assault, and even a 200 quickstrike with only older figures (balck and white cards only) and have actually seen loads more fun and gory battles. Almost all taking place in the one corner where the two teleporters are separated by a thin wall. (A couple of one on ones happen elsewhere but the majority of figures are eliminated near those two teleporters.)
Now will say though that the most at stake in any of these matches was league standings none were for DCI standings. | |
Champion of Cyclops
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 03/12/2006 1:05 PM |
| I haven't noticed that its any slower than traditional maps.
One thing I have noticed is that its gonna show up, early and often, so we'd all better get used to it. IIRC, 3 people out of about 14 brought something besides the Teleport Temple at our last tourney.
I realize that alot of this has to do with its newness, but it definitely joins the Drow Outpost and Dragon Shrine as maps that you'd better consider when building a warband. | |
Rhane
"The focus is sharp in the city..."
Have/Want List
Reference thread
Avatar Thread
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cerberuspuppy
Warrior
288 Posts
| | 03/12/2006 11:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
I've only just taken a serious look at the map. Does it seem to anyone else that player B is at a significant disadvantage? The teleporters AND victory areas for B are all at least a few squares farther away than any for player A.
I noticed this too. I'm not sure just how bad it is, but it did seem that I had a relatively easy time denying my opponents tile points and forcing them to come after me if I took side A. I also had a Warforged Scout for first turn tile points. | |
Mine is an evil laugh! Muhahahaha!
-Wash, Firefly | |
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11730 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 03/12/2006 11:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kissmykiester
Many questions have arisen and likewise been answered by Guy since then. But still...is there any truth to the map slowing the game or being harder for newer players to catch on? OR should I start offering the whinesome players some cheese?
Go ahead and offer them some cheese. They'll be better players for it afterwards. There's nothing like removing the veil of fear associated with the unknown. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 03/13/2006 12:41 PM |
| The first time I played on the Teleport Shrine, I absolutely hated it. I got my butt kicked hard and fast by a Shulth/HGB/Wemic band in the first sealed release. Then, the next day I chose it as my map and played just my first match on it and won. It does add a very different feel to the game.
I took a good look at the map last night, and really analyzed the map. Side A can get first turn tile points with a speed 8 fig. Side B needs I believe a speed 9? fig to get first turn tile. Of course burrow or incorporeal would make either side an easy grab.
After playing on it twice and really taking a look at it, I have to say I do like the map now. I really allows for some sneaky hooligan tactics! [:D] | |
Champion of Remorhaz, and the Mighty Goblin Frog Riders | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 03/13/2006 4:02 PM |
| | After thinking about it a bit I should add this to my initial reports. At the end of the first round just about every piece can be threatened on the next move. The slow down comes during this crucial round 2. That's when a player has so many moves and counter moves that it is very easy to miss something critical. Once engaged the battles do go quick though. So maybe in the end the overall play time hasn't been increased as much as I thought. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 03/13/2006 4:05 PM |
| @forkedmoon
I've played 5 matches on it and none of the battles occurred where you said yours did. Mine took place near the start areas, evenly split between side A and side B. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 03/13/2006 4:11 PM |
| First game was a nightmare. After you get the hang of it though (and after your opponent does the same ) it's quite a fun map to play on.
Do creatures run off though teleporters? | |
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frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 03/13/2006 6:28 PM |
| From the War Drums Rulebook:
"A routing creature cannot use a teleporter square." | |
Champion of Remorhaz, and the Mighty Goblin Frog Riders | |
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Professional Fan of DDM
Shoe
Sergeant
804 Posts
| | 03/13/2006 7:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chad the DragonLordofAiur
@forkedmoon
I've played 5 matches on it and none of the battles occurred where you said yours did. Mine took place near the start areas, evenly split between side A and side B.
At the Winter Fantasy tournament, I was happy to note that at one point during the second tournament round, no two matches had battles occuring in the same place of the map. | |
Professional Fan of DDM | |
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