iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
    
Spain
 | | 03/17/2006 9:15 AM |
| | I recently begin to play the marut+couatl warband.It works very nice but there,s one thing that annoys me:The maruts low HP.A Lucky Frenzied or Orc champion can obliterate it with three hits.Yes,Its very difficult that gauth ,beholder,archmages,chraals to defeat you,but There are a lot of eyes and berserker run out there.And you can loose against these opponents.Some people tell me that i should use a bodyguard,that it works...But 32 points only for giving it 55 aditionals HP?I dont know but...sounds me expensive.Have you tested it yet?Works it?Thank you. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
United States
| | 03/17/2006 9:19 AM |
| I've seen it tested a few different ways and the band performed well. I guess you have to ask yourself if a Marut that cost 106 points and had 130 hit points would be worth it.
Dave | |
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 03/17/2006 9:23 AM |
| I havn't tested Marut+bodyguard.
However that combo does clearly improve if you have something to heal the bodyguard. {Healer, Cleric of Dol Arrah, etc.}
Many opponents would bypass the Marut to kill the healer. But doing so allows at least 1 more attack by the Marut. And not killing the healer is another 60hp for the Marut.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 9:41 AM |
| | I like the Couatl because of SS on the Marut and heals if necessary, with the Elemental resistance, but after you figure in the Couatl, Bodyguard, and Marut, you are using a lot of points, which sucks. While being fearless is nice, the 75 hp is just sucky. Like you said, one or two lucky hits, and you are in some serious trouble. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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aron1
Sergeant
415 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 9:57 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
I've seen it tested a few different ways and the band performed well. I guess you have to ask yourself if a Marut that cost 106 points and had 130 hit points would be worth it.
Dave
It's actually even potentially more than 130 hp. THink of it like this: If the Bodyguard had assumed 50damage while guarding the Marut (so the bodyguard has 5hp left), and then the Marut gets hit for another 30 damage, the bodyguard can take the damage, killing the bodyguard, but still doing no damage to the marut.
So, depending on your attackers, it might even be a virtual extra 80hp or so to the figure guarded by the bodyguard. | |
Champion of the Thoqqua | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
United States
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 11:03 AM |
| | My big question is still, what do you do with only one hitter in the bad. If he had 2 attacks maybe, but a single hitter with only one attack... What do you do for damage out put. | |
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Champion of Elementals
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 1:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by aron1
So, depending on your attackers, it might even be a virtual extra 80hp or so to the figure guarded by the bodyguard.
More if you're using the Warpriest of Moradin. Close Wounds is great in that circumstance. | |
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MGM
Sneak
116 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 2:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lachlarlan_the_Mad
quote:
Originally posted by aron1
So, depending on your attackers, it might even be a virtual extra 80hp or so to the figure guarded by the bodyguard.
More if you're using the Warpriest of Moradin. Close Wounds is great in that circumstance.
I was playtesting :
Couatl
Bodyguard
Marut
Cleric of order
Aramil
W Scout
Hill dwarf
Men at arms
Just stop testing because becomes clear to me such warband is incredible, efficient, tier 1 material. | |
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EldritchSoul
Warrior
324 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 2:36 PM |
| the marut tank is basically slowed to speed 4 because of the speed of the bodyguard and combat medic. this will allow your opponent ample time to clear out your scout and get victory points himself. as well as get into position to take out your bodyguard before you get a chance to heal (if they're smart, they'll smash through your combat medic so none of the damage is ignored.)
this combo looks VERY good on paper, but i think in play, most chaotic bands will have their way with it. | |
Champion of Dracotaur- Vindicated!
T32 | |
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Aravis
Underboss
1155 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 2:46 PM |
| Marut + Bodyguard works great. Derry just piloted one of these warbands at our last tourny and he did pretty good with it. The Bodyguard gives alot of HP to the Marut..plus the Bodyguard takes 5 less dmg from everything! His warband was..
Marut
Couatl
Warforged Bodyguard
Justice Archon
Cleric of Yondalla
Man At Arms x2/3 (I forget exactly)
Map: Broken Demongate, but I like | |
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EldritchSoul
Warrior
324 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 3:08 PM |
| | i think with the extra hitter, it's a much better setup than with the healer. the healer can only move 4 and heal, meaning that the marut and bodyguard can't run too far ahead. without worrying about healing, the marut has alot more freedom. Also, the second hitter in the JA gives your opponent another threat to focus on. | |
Champion of Dracotaur- Vindicated!
T32 | |
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DDM Constructed Champion 2006
derry
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 3:14 PM |
| At the Endgame Tournament on 11 MAR 06
http://maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16923
Marut
Couatl
Warforged Bodyguard
Justice Archon
Warforged Scout
Miale
Man At Arms x2
Map: Magma Keep
Record: 5-0
At the Game Kastle Tournament 16 MAR 06
http://maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17226
Marut
Couatl
Warforged Bodyguard
Justice Archon
Cleric of Yondalla
Man At Arms x2
Map: Magma Keep
Record: 2-1 | |
Member of the Low Post Count but High Post Content Society | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 3:25 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Aravis
Marut + Bodyguard works great. Derry just piloted one of these warbands at our last tourny and he did pretty good with it. The Bodyguard gives alot of HP to the Marut..plus the Bodyguard takes 5 less dmg from everything! His warband was..
Marut
Couatl
Warforged Bodyguard
Justice Archon
Cleric of Yondalla
Man At Arms x2/3 (I forget exactly)
Map: Broken Demongate, but I like
To be clear the Bodyguard takes full damage when the damage is dealt to an adjacent creature... He only gets teh reduction when he is the target of the attack!
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Draxle
Sneak
127 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 3:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Aravis
Marut + Bodyguard works great. Derry just piloted one of these warbands at our last tourny and he did pretty good with it. The Bodyguard gives alot of HP to the Marut..plus the Bodyguard takes 5 less dmg from everything! His warband was..
Marut
Couatl
Warforged Bodyguard
Justice Archon
Cleric of Yondalla
Man At Arms x2/3 (I forget exactly)
Map: Broken Demongate, but I like
I have to say after analyzing the current "considered" tier1 bands out there this one scares me the most. It has very good synergy with most of the figures. But I think the true star of this warband is neither the Marut or the Bodyguard. The true star of this band is the Couatl. With 60 hps and a good ac it's not easy to just get rid of. Also every swing you turn towards the Couatl you aren't using against the Marut.
The nice thing about the Bodyguard is he "can" take damage from adjacent allies. So as long as he's standing there he is +55 hps for the Marut, oh and btw he can still block and attack.
From what I can see there are two ways to attack this warband. Attack the Marut with everything you have and try to do 130 hps of damage to it before he takes apart your warband. With his AC25 and DR5 that's not easy to do. Try and assassinate the Couatl, thus reducing the Marut's dps by 50% and removing the energy resistance which makes both the Marut and Bodyguard more vulnerable to auto-damage.
The quality player is going to make option #2 as difficult as possible and he will make option #1 as painful as possible. The Marut has one weakness that can be exploited which I don't see a lot of people discussing here on these boards. That weakness is Single Minded. Would I sacrifice my commander to allow my hitters to surround and beat on the Marut without reprisal for 2-3 swings from the Marut? Heck yea, esp. with the no speed 2 rule. If you have a sturdy commander say an Aspect of Moradin you can hide him behind 1 of your hitters putting him within reach of the Marut. The Marut would then be forced to attack him with "Ranged" reach rules. Giving the Aspect an AC of 27 not an auto hit by the Marut and enough hps to last a few swings. Even if your commander died in 2-3 hits that 1 to 1.5 full rounds of attacks that your hitters are not getting hit.
Lets face it with this band if the Marut falls, and most of your hitters are standing it's game over. I'm not saying this will work every time or it will be easy but it's something to consider. If the Marut is surrounded by 3 Orc Champs, he is going to miss every attack not spent on getting rid of the champs. Three OC's should take a Marut down in 2 rounds, the Marut will have 4 attacks with Snakes during those 2 rounds considering everything even.. If he has to spend 1-2 or even 3 of those killing a less dangerous figure that’s a big disadvantage.
Drax
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 3:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by derry
At the Endgame Tournament on 11 MAR 06
http://maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16923
Marut
Couatl
Warforged Bodyguard
Justice Archon
Warforged Scout
Miale
Man At Arms x2
Map: Magma Keep
Record: 5-0
At the Game Kastle Tournament 16 MAR 06
http://maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17226
Marut
Couatl
Warforged Bodyguard
Justice Archon
Cleric of Yondalla
Man At Arms x2
Map: Magma Keep
Record: 2-1
I haven't seen this played yet, but wouldn't the key be taking out the Couatl/Couatl + CoY first? That would make the WFBG and JA routable; once they rout, it's all downhill for the Marut.
Did any of your opponents try this? How successful were they? | | | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 4:08 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by iluvxtina
But 32 points only for giving it 55 aditionals HP?I dont know but...sounds me expensive.Have you tested it yet?Works it?Thank you.
Its actually more than 55 HP. Say your facing Orc Champs. You can absorb 2 swings then wait for someone to get a critical on one of your guys. Then it adds 100 HP to your guys. Also it lets you heal "indirectly" a Marut or Iron golem because the warforged can be healed still. | |
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DDM Constructed Champion 2006
derry
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 03/17/2006 4:57 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Orion72
I haven't seen this played yet, but wouldn't the key be taking out the Couatl/Couatl + CoY first? That would make the WFBG and JA routable; once they rout, it's all downhill for the Marut.
Did any of your opponents try this? How successful were they?
As observed by others. Swings on the Couatl are not swings on the Marut. Swings on the JA and Warforged Bodyguard are also not swings on the Marut. The more turns the Marut gets to swing his single attack, the less the opposing warband has to answer with.
The key is to do burst damage on the Marut and/or shut down the supporting parts of the Marut-Couatl-Bodyguard (MCB) warband. Doing both of these things is usually not that difficult for most good players so the MCB warbands have problems against other actual tier 1 warbands piloted by good players. Marut wins against those warbands usually result from lower than average luck on the opposing warband's part (a key reason for my win vs. Elliot Chin's CE beater warband.) | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 03/18/2006 2:20 AM |
| Derry is right. CE beater bands that can deliver high burst damage can really ruin a Marut+Couatl+Bodyguard band.
In our matchup, I failed to deliver on the burst damage and so his Justice Archon was able to live to rout my Eye and cut down my offense significantly.
Also, we played on Dragon Shrine, and Derry chose the fire side. He was able to control where we fought and could use the 2-square wide corridors in the middle of the map to his advantage. He prevented me from moving up to base his Couatl by leading with his hitters. So I was forced to confront his Jusitce Archon and Bodyguard first. I also couldn't run around to hit his Couatl's backside without double moving and exposing myself to a deadly counterattack. That meant I couldn't gun for his Couatl until I took out the JA and BG. Only then could I run around the Marut to base the Couatl, but by then, it was pretty much too late as I was reduced to just my OC and Orc Druid.
But even then I was almost able to pull out the win despite the early loss of my Eye and my poor rolls. In the end, we sped up the game to get in more rounds and one more good roll would have enabled my last Orc Champ to destroy the Marut.
Long story short, against Tier 1 bands with high dmg output and multiple (3+) threats that are piloted by good players, I think the Marut+Couatl+Bodyguard will have a tough time. It's not that the band is at a great disadvantage, but it also doesn't have much of an advantage either and requires great skill to run against those matchups.
In those instances (i.e. versus your worst matchups, which would be CE beaters), the Justice Archon is a money inclusion - almost a must-have. | |
Champion of Neogi
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 03/18/2006 7:11 AM |
| | Well with Marut/Bodyguard/Couatl/Justice Archin, you really dont have room for anything else. Or at least very little else, and I think its that much easier to metagame against because you already know like 90% of their band, so you can predict a lot of times what they will do. I just dont like the Marut, no matter what you do, 1-2 lucky hits and your band has pretty much fallen apart. Not good in my opinion. 75 hp is harsh. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 03/18/2006 2:55 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by True_Blue
I just dont like the Marut, no matter what you do, 1-2 lucky hits and your band has pretty much fallen apart. Not good in my opinion. 75 hp is harsh.
How has the band fallen apart after 1-2 lucky hits? At most its killed the bodyguard, or scored 1 hit on the marut and 1 on the bodyguard leaving everything else safe and sound. The old version prior to the bodyguard was in trouble if a few lucky hits scored for sure, but thats not the case anymore. | |
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