wicked cool
Underboss
2130 Posts
    
 | | 03/22/2006 10:52 AM |
| | with a new emphasis on LG why isnt the Artificer talked about more. His +2 to warband AC could boost the acs of G monks to 27 or Aspect of moradin to 25 or maruts to 27. It seems like he shuld be a automatic . Alos giving 1 fighter +2 to hit and ignoring DR is a must . Plus he can reduce the effectiveness of constructs. whats his downside for a LG tech piece? | |
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Helzapoppn
Warrior
258 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 10:56 AM |
| | Don't get me wrong, I love the Artificer...but once he casts his two buff spells, he's dead weight unless the other side brings Constructs. | |
Champion of Iconics & the Apparatus of Kwalish (Constructs with Drivers? Brilliant!)
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Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 11:09 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Helzapoppn
Don't get me wrong, I love the Artificer...but once he casts his two buff spells, he's dead weight unless the other side brings Constructs.
I must agree. He costs 21 points, and after his pair of spells is dead weight for LG. LG already has enough issues scraping out enough damage in 200 points, that I'd rather find a way to get another hitter in there, than makes my hitters slightly harder to hit. | | | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 03/22/2006 11:13 AM |
| | I have play the dwarven artificer and have to say he,s a risky choice.+2 AC to your warband is not necessary because most of times you,ll only need to buff the ac of only one or two creatures and that is a task for the cleric order or cleric moradin (much cheaper and much useful).The greater magic weapon is almost useless because the normal magic weapon is almost the same and you,ll have a lot of creatures in your warband (like eberk or cleric yondalla)that already cast it.In fact,the artificer is more expensive and almost the same that other better choices.Only if you know at 100% you,ll encounter constructs,the artificer becomes a much better option (and with the marut walking around out there this can be a good choice).But personally,I always prefer aramil...Sure! | |
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Master Peon
spikegif
Warlord
5699 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 11:16 AM |
| It has been shown to me time and time again that the AC levels that LG can reach does very little now days. The big hitters in the other factions have the attack bonus needed to hit you any ways and the damage they can put out is beyound anything LG can dish out.
I like the artificer and if I can fit him in I will, but reling upon AC will not win the game for you vs good and better players. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 11:19 AM |
| quote:
he's dead weight unless the other side brings Constructs.
He's a level 8 model swinging for magic damage with a 21 armor class and moderate HPs. Go plunk him down on a tile or kill their tile grabbers. Use him to setup a flank with their main beater.
Oh.. and alot of people bring constructs. So I would guess he is worth using at least if you can fit it.
Plus, the difference between 25 and 27 AC is pretty large.. blah, blah 10%.. stop with your logic and math | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 11:36 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ack
quote:
he's dead weight unless the other side brings Constructs.
He's a level 8 model swinging for magic damage with a 21 armor class and moderate HPs. Go plunk him down on a tile or kill their tile grabbers. Use him to setup a flank with their main beater.
But, by the beginning of the third round, he's only moved 8 spaces from your starting area. At that point, its very unlikely that he'll contribute in a meaningful way to the rest of the skirmish.
Typically, if you bring the Artificer, it means leaving out something that will be more effective. A warband with 4 monks is better than a band with 3 monks and an Artificer. If you're running the Marut or AoMoradin, and you really want that +2 AC, you may as well choose the Cleric of Moradin and save some points. | |
Rhane
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EldritchSoul
Warrior
324 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 11:51 AM |
| the difference between the cleric of moradin and the artificer is that there is no leash for the artificer. if you want more than one creature to have that +2 AC, with the cleric, they need to stay 8 spaces away from their starting area to gain it's benefit. with the artificer, you can cast magic weapon on whomever, let your forces fly out, and cast legion's shield the following round without worrying about how close anyone is. as for his other spells, between maruts, helmed horrors, iron golems and warforged bodyguards (maybe), i think he's a decent enough option to use his other spells at some point.
he's 10% of your points to make your warband 10% less likely to be hit, and with lawful good, you've just made their armor go from difficult to very unlikely. you're also making someone else more likely to hit, and with magic damage and while most figures only need one or the other, it's still a very useful spell.
add to this the uses ack pointed out, and no, i don't believe he is a poor choice to include. | |
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 12:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by EldritchSoul
he's 10% of your points to make your warband 10% less likely to be hit, and with lawful good, you've just made their armor go from difficult to very unlikely. you're also making someone else more likely to hit, and with magic damage and while most figures only need one or the other, it's still a very useful spell.
If you don't ming Eldritch, I'm going to agree with you by pointing out a flaw in your logic.
The Artificer reduces a figure's chance to be hit by at least 10%, assuming the difference in attack rating and armor class isn't absurd.
If you cast a +2AC buff on an AC17 figure that's then attacked by an Eye of Gruumsh, then the number of times that he would get hit out of 20 went from 19 to 17, or slightly better than 10%.
If, on the other hand, you cast it on a Gith Monk that's then attacked by that Eye of Gruumsh, the number of times the monk is hit goes from 11 to 9, or almost a 20% drop in the hit rate. If the monk is attacked by the now-hapless Ogre Ravager, the number of times the monk is hit goes from 6 to 4, or a 33% drop. Instead of the ogre needing to swing an average of three times in order to make contact with the monk, the ogre now has to swing five times in order to get an average of one hit. This is a substantial difference. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 12:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by EldritchSoul
the difference between the cleric of moradin and the artificer is that there is no leash for the artificer. if you want more than one creature to have that +2 AC, with the cleric, they need to stay 8 spaces away from their starting area to gain it's benefit.
Huh? | | | |
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EldritchSoul
Warrior
324 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 12:44 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Orion72
quote:
Originally posted by EldritchSoul
the difference between the cleric of moradin and the artificer is that there is no leash for the artificer. if you want more than one creature to have that +2 AC, with the cleric, they need to stay 8 spaces away from their starting area to gain it's benefit.
Huh?
yeah i can see how that wasn't entirely clear.
cleric of moradin has 2 castings of shield of faith. for the second figure to get that spell cast on him, he can't run more than 8 spaces away from the starting area. it's like this:
the cleric casts shield of faith on figure A and moves out 4 spaces. Figure B will also have shield of faith cast upon it. because the cleric of moradin can only move out 4 spaces before casting another spell, the second figure has to remain close enough for the cleric to be able to reach him. this also keeps that figure unlikely to be part of engagement on the second round. with the artificer, you don't have that problem. legion's shield of faith affects your whole army no matter how close they are when it's cast. | |
Champion of Dracotaur- Vindicated!
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 12:59 PM |
| I can see the points here, but I personally never find it worthwhile to include the artificer. The benefits he brings, while nice, are almost never worth the 21 points you have to spend on him.
As rhane pointed out, bringing the artificer often means that instead of having 4 hitters, you'll have 3. So he'd better improve each of those hitters by 33% overall, or you're losing out.
Even in Puggin's best case, the Artificer only improves the Gith's monk chances to be missed by an Oger Ravager by 33%. That's only one part of the monk where the Artificer is eraning his points, and it's in a pretty skewed matchup already. Where the Artificer is still losing out, even in that matchup is losing the damage of the 4th monk, as well as the extra abilities (unavoidable strike & more stunning attacks.)
If the only thing your warband needs to do is not being hit, then yes, the Artificer can help you there. But there are so many more things that any competitive warband needs to do these days, that I think the Artificer isn't worth the points you're spending on him. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 1:14 PM |
| I think theres some flawed thinking in between the legitimate math.
I roll a d20. adding 2 to my AC makes it 10% less likely that you will hit me. I was not discussing a percentage drop in how often I will get hit. D20 math is simple. Everything is by 5s.. and adding 2 to a target number makes it occur 10% less often.
Regardless. IM STILL RIGHT!! Life is so much easier when everyone just accepts that fundamental, universal truth. :P | |
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elf_ranger
Sneak
57 Posts
Delson (South Shore Montreal)
| | 03/22/2006 1:18 PM |
| [/quote]If you don't ming Eldritch, I'm going to agree with you by pointing out a flaw in your logic.
The Artificer reduces a figure's chance to be hit by at least 10%, assuming the difference in attack rating and armor class isn't absurd.
If you cast a +2AC buff on an AC17 figure that's then attacked by an Eye of Gruumsh, then the number of times that he would get hit out of 20 went from 19 to 17, or slightly better than 10%.
If, on the other hand, you cast it on a Gith Monk that's then attacked by that Eye of Gruumsh, the number of times the monk is hit goes from 11 to 9, or almost a 20% drop in the hit rate. If the monk is attacked by the now-hapless Ogre Ravager, the number of times the monk is hit goes from 6 to 4, or a 33% drop. Instead of the ogre needing to swing an average of three times in order to make contact with the monk, the ogre now has to swing five times in order to get an average of one hit. This is a substantial difference.
[/quote]
What is all those math thing... No matter who is attacking and who is the target, the difference in having or not +2 to AC always result in a 10% less chance to be hit... Dont forget you are rolling a 20 face dice so 2/20 its 10%... its not we go from 19/20 to 17/20 chance so its 2/19 difference or we are going from 11/20 to 9/20 hit chance so its 2/11.. That kind of statistical math is out of nowhere and are in no way exact.
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CTSparky
Sneak
128 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 1:31 PM |
| Well I'm fairly new so don't take my comments with any weight but I have found the Artificer only ok. I used him in Gith Monk bands and it did indeed help.
Wit hthe recent trend towards Marut, and Helmed Horrors his value only contributes minorly. If I ahve a marut band and the artificer comes to me then I feel the artificer is good only with lots of contructs in play.
You can use the artificer to get victory points but his slow speed means it isn't going to happen fast.
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orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 1:32 PM |
| | The Artificer may have a place nowadays. The way I see it, the Helmed Horror, Maruts and Warforged Bodyguard/Scout there is a pretty good chance someone will bring Constructs. Don't get me wrong, he's not Tier 1, but he's moved up. | |
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frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 1:40 PM |
| | +2 to AC does normallly mean opponents have a 10% less chance to hit you. The exceptions come in to play when you have to-hit #s greater than AC to begin with, or pitiful to-hit #s, where only a crit will hit no matter how high the AC jumps. But, I'd have to agree that Ack is right - stop with all the logic and math! now my head hurts. [:p] | |
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BunnyPuncher
Sneak
171 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 2:00 PM |
| | The artificer has a home - in epic. | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 03/22/2006 2:09 PM |
| for nine more points you can do cleric of maradin and eberk. in addition to your +3 AC you get that spiritual weapon (which can prove useful vs. the chaotic factions) and a magic weapon. if AC is what you're going for might as well go all the way. I don't think your going to get much mileage out of it unless your main hitters are at the least AC 24 to start.
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 2:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by elf_ranger
What is all those math thing... No matter who is attacking and who is the target, the difference in having or not +2 to AC always result in a 10% less chance to be hit... Dont forget you are rolling a 20 face dice so 2/20 its 10%... its not we go from 19/20 to 17/20 chance so its 2/19 difference or we are going from 11/20 to 9/20 hit chance so its 2/11.. That kind of statistical math is out of nowhere and are in no way exact.
Let me try to explain it a different way.
Bonuses to AC vary in value according to the target. If you give a +2 to a frenzied berserker you are getting very little value, because the berserker will get hit by most attackers anyway. However, giving it to a figure with a higher armor class drastically lowers the chance it will get hit, increasing its active time.
If an orc champion needs a 12 or more to hit a gith monk, that means he has a 45% chance to hit. Three swings from the champion will result in an average of 1.35 hits on the monk. Now give that monk a +2ac buff. now the orc has a 35% chance to hit (14 or more), and three swings from the champ results in 1.05 hits, four swings in 1.40. In other words:
A +2AC bonus to the gith monk will force an orc champion to swing four times in order to get three swings' worth of damage on the monk
This is average, of course, meaning that sometimes the orc champion will blow right through the monk with a critical hit and sometimes the orc will fall flat on his face after rolling 3 12s and 13s in a row. Over the course of a few games though, the difference will show pretty clearly. Throw the buff on three monks and have 20+ attacks fly in during a single skirmish and the difference will come out every skirmish.
The value of the artificer is not just in the armor class buff, though. He also gives you a magic weapon with a very nice +2 attack bonus, a very solid warm body that may or may not be useful depending on the map and the opposing warband because of this speed, and (very importantly) a construct debuff that absolutely cripples Maruts and Helmed Horrors.
How many points less is this creature worth:
AC21, +18 (15 + 10 sonic)
Than this creature:
AC25, +18 (20 + 10 sonic) DR5
Or how about this creature:
AC18, +16/+11 (5 + 5 fire)
to this creature:
AC22, +16/+11 (10 + 5 fire)
This doesn't appear to be an obvious choice. You invest 21 points, a hefty percentage of your total, but in return you get several very effective bonuses. It's worth considering, at the very least. | |
References: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7231 | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 2:39 PM |
| I see what you are saying.. but you are expressing a value difference vs a statistical difference. And honestly, the decision to include or exclude an artificer into your band is how much you value that +2 AC and Greater Magic Weapon. Cause you wont see a construct in every band you face against.
I still say that if you are expecting a construct heavy meta, its well worth the points. and when you face a band without any constructs, he is still a sturdy lil model that can provide a benefit (as Ive explained earlier).
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 2:59 PM |
| The Artificer is still speed 4. Good luck getting him to the target
I've played against him 2 times with Maruts, and he has never gotten off the construct hate. Rikka both times has intercepted and killed/routed him.
Against a tri-quad HH band, that won't be as easy, but you cannot count on the construct hate to always go off. | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 3:06 PM |
| | I like him and put him in, if I have the points. If I don't I don't re-shuffle my band to fit him in. If I'm running an Aspect of Moradin or a Sword Archon, I want Greater Magic Weapon and Shield of Faith, so he's a conscious part of the build. Otherwise, again, only if he fits with the points left. | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 3:16 PM |
| | I think he is more worthy of consideration then he was before the change to the 8 figure limit. In addition to the noted used for Gith Monks he also has potential in most any warband these days that relies on multiple LG heavy hitters. Unfortunately there aren't very many effective non-Titan builds in LG these days. Maybe if LG ever gets a cost-efficient duergar championesque beater, we will start seeing him a bit more frequently. As it is, I think the noted Cleric of Moradin and Cleric of Order are better choices for anything but maybe monks. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 7:39 PM |
| quote:
Rikka both times has intercepted and killed/routed him.
So your opponent spent 2 turns with their 32 point beater killing a 21 point model. Thats usually a win. He got off his 2 spells and then got 2 turns of Rikka hate? ka-ching.
DoB - I still like him in titan builds. he doesnt suck.. its a choice - are you more defensive or offensive? Offensive - direct replacement is the Dwarf Wizard.
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SneakyJoeKDB
Sergeant
593 Posts
Utah
| | 03/22/2006 8:24 PM |
| | Question.....The Artificer's rust construct spell can be used on any creature not just constructs? By reading the card this is how it appears to me can someone clarify? | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 8:26 PM |
| | There are lots of pieces that I would usually rather include then the dwarf artificer or the dwarf wizard. In most cases I don't have the points left to make him worthwhile. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 03/22/2006 9:10 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by SneakyJoeKDB
Question.....The Artificer's rust construct spell can be used on any creature not just constructs? By reading the card this is how it appears to me can someone clarify?
Despite the way the card reads, it can only be used on Constructs.
I`ll try and find the link to the ruling as it's not on Guy's page.
Edit:
Fancy that, it's on the wizard's errata
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mi/20031030x
quote:
Dwarf Artificer (Deathknell: LG, 03/60): rust construct--just like inflict moderate damage, this spell should specify "Constructs only."
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wicked cool
Underboss
2130 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 10:53 PM |
| | is there a LG bubble piece that would improve greatly by the addition of the +2 to hit and or ac? | |
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psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 10:57 PM |
| Love the artificer.
He gained ground with the change to 8 figs.
He also lost ground, because I used to often find that having five 21AC Men-at-arms was a gamebreaker.
Has anyone thought of using him with the Ballista? he seems to be a nice addition.
The major complaint here is that after his two spells are cast he's "dead weight". With the ballista, his presence alone makes him worthwhile.
Obviously, that's still less than ideal, as the ballista is a bit wonky, but I think people sell this guy short sometimes.
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 11:12 PM |
| Rikka's whole point was commander/soft target assassination.
As long as it protects the marut, what do I care if I have to spend 1 rd killing off an Artificer?
In these cases, I hit with Rikka, then hit the Artificer with a Sonic orb, killing him in 1 round.
I don't consider it a waste at all. Also, he only got off the AC buff, which was less then useful vs the +21 Marut dealing magic damage.
I just think with speed 4, you can't count on the Rust Construct. It's nice when it happens, but it's by no means a given. | |
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elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 03/23/2006 12:04 AM |
| One thing to consider:
as a dwarf, he's not as much of a waste in an aspect of moradin band. His attack bonus is still pretty weak, but stonelord gives him a bit more damage which could be handy when he's done with his main contributions. | |
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