orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
    
 | | 03/22/2006 3:58 PM |
| I notice a lot of people trying to get him into warbands with the wardrummer. Is he really that good? I know that he now won't rush anything, but I wouldn't consider him great.
Can somebody shed some light for me? | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1500 Posts
Spain
| | 03/22/2006 4:06 PM |
| | I have three umber hulks and play it since harbinger.Its my favourite creature and It never has been a good creauture.But with the rules change,It becomes a fearsome one.For only 30 points has 70 HP (more than the double.And if this is not enough it has two melee attacks making 15 damage with +11/+11.Has level 8 (very high) and speed 6 (It can even burrow and avoid attacks oportunity).And if this is not even enough,It has the only confusion until the end of the battle.Its unlimited,range 6 and decent dc.Only one fail,and your opponent loose and orc champion,frenzied,wemic....The last time I ran It,I confused an orc champion at the first gaze attack.The orc champion works for me!!!My oponent withdraw....Yes,mate....Its fearsome. | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1500 Posts
Spain
| | 03/22/2006 4:07 PM |
| | I have three umber hulks and play it since harbinger.Its my favourite creature and It never has been a good creauture.But with the rules change,It becomes a fearsome one.For only 30 points has 70 HP (more than the double.And if this is not enough it has two melee attacks making 15 damage with +11/+11.Has level 8 (very high) and speed 6 (It can even burrow and avoid attacks oportunity).And if this is not even enough,It has the only confusion until the end of the battle.Its unlimited,range 6 and decent dc.Only one fail,and your opponent loose and orc champion,frenzied,wemic....The last time I ran It,I confused an orc champion at the first gaze attack.The orc champion works for me!!!My oponent withdraw....Yes,mate....Its fearsome. | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1500 Posts
Spain
| | 03/22/2006 4:08 PM |
| | I have three umber hulks and play it since harbinger.Its my favourite creature and It never has been a good creauture.But with the rules change,It becomes a fearsome one.For only 30 points has 70 HP (more than the double.And if this is not enough it has two melee attacks making 15 damage with +11/+11.Has level 8 (very high) and speed 6 (It can even burrow and avoid attacks oportunity).And if this is not even enough,It has the only confusion until the end of the battle.Its unlimited,range 6 and decent dc.Only one fail,and your opponent loose and orc champion,frenzied,wemic....The last time I ran It,I confused an orc champion at the first gaze attack.The orc champion works for me!!!My oponent withdraw....Yes,mate....Its fearsome. | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1500 Posts
Spain
| | 03/22/2006 4:08 PM |
| | I have three umber hulks and play it since harbinger.Its my favourite creature and It never has been a good creauture.But with the rules change,It becomes a fearsome one.For only 30 points has 70 HP (more than the double.And if this is not enough it has two melee attacks making 15 damage with +11/+11.Has level 8 (very high) and speed 6 (It can even burrow and avoid attacks oportunity).And if this is not even enough,It has the only confusion until the end of the battle.Its unlimited,range 6 and decent dc.Only one fail,and your opponent loose and orc champion,frenzied,wemic....The last time I ran It,I confused an orc champion at the first gaze attack.The orc champion works for me!!!My oponent withdraw....Yes,mate....Its fearsome. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 4:09 PM |
| He's the best 30-ish point option CE has. With the wardrummer he's not likely to rout often, has good AC, reach, decent enough attacks and the can't-go-away confusion gaze attack.
I think so. If the choice in your optimal band is to use 4 beefy hitters or no wardrummer ... versus three + umber hulk + wardrummer just to squeeze in the commanders/tech you want, you're golden.
Recall a few months back on the multi-Death Slaad threads how everyone said they wished there was a 30-point option for CE that was really viable. I mean, the Grimlock Barb isn't HORRIBLE at 60 HP, but he's also not great. At 70 HP for 30 points the Umber Hulk is simply better for 2 points more. | |
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 4:18 PM |
| Its okay, but I would generally prefer to upgrade my fodder to quaggoths or run a Mounted Drow Patrol.
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I am not gone. | |
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DaemonKain
Warrior
312 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 5:21 PM |
| You know, it seems to me that if you are going to play Umberhulks, you should go all out. Therefore, I give unto you:
UMBER HULK SMASH!!!!
(Warband name in honor of Fry)
5x Umber Hulk
Orc Wardrummer
Trogolodyte Barbarian
Trogolodyte
Even though you won't be able to confuse Maruts and Helmed Horrors, you will be able to confuse their supporting cast members, and burrow will help you evade them without taking AOO attempts. And come on, you've got FIVE gaze attempts per turn. That couatl / warforged bodyguard / LE Commander is going to fail sometime...
Alternative builds include:
Hezrou + 3 Umber Hulks - "The kind of stinky that doesn't wash off"
Tiefling instead of the Barbarian, to give you some Init.
Ryld + 4 Umber Hulks, for true gaze and scoot ability.
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-DaemonKain
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11587 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 03/22/2006 7:46 PM |
| | Couple of problems with a five Umber Hulk build. The current meta is rife with pieces immune to mind-affecting stuff like confusion. The other is having 5 Umber Hulks - not likely for most people. This is why Vassal is so awesome. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 03/22/2006 7:49 PM |
| He is a tier 1 piece.
Melee: His cost is 30 points. Look at other ~30 point figures for a comparison of offensive melee firepower. There is no creature out there that gets to attack at +11/+11 (or better) and 15 (or more) damage. However, +11/+11 for 15 isn't exactly the type of punch CE is known to offer. Typically, we look for more out of a beater figure.
His gaze attack is fearsome, as it effectively removes an enemy from the game. Although the enemy still gets to act on some turns, it does so on your behalf 1/2 of the time. Although (unliving) constructs, undead, plants, vermin and oozes are immune to confusion, many important creatures you face will not be immune. Combined with a troglodyte, that save climbs to 17 ... which is nothing to ignore. However, it is still an expensive proposition to use the gaze. Gazing means you are not attacking with a 30 point beater ...
His speed is slow at 4, but he does have burrow to compensate. On a map such as the teleporter temple, his ability to burrow can often make up for his lack of speed. However, he is a hard monster to use with the speedy CE bands due to his slow speed on other maps. He'll often fall behind unless the map has teleporters, or advanced starting areas. If he falls behind ... your opponent has effectively negated your speed advantage for using pieces like Red Samurai, Orc Champion or other fast beaters.
His AC is also pretty good for CE at 18. Combined with 70 hit points, it can be hard for many enemies to take him down fast.
For 30 points, he is a monster. | |
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minatoman38
Underboss
1361 Posts
Minaniuonuma-shi, Japan
| | 03/22/2006 9:41 PM |
| I've always wanted to use him but with the Difficult 7 I've never been able to up until now.
I'm thinking something along these lines....
Bugbear Champion of Erythnul....34
Wardrummer......................19
Orc Champion x2.................78
Umber Hulk x2...................60
Drow Warrior....................6
Orc Warrior.....................3
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Robert Rosehart
Champion of the pixie
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 9:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by minatoman38
I've always wanted to use him but with the Difficult 7 I've never been able to up until now.
I'm thinking something along these lines....
Bugbear Champion of Erythnul....34
Wardrummer......................19
Orc Champion x2.................78
Umber Hulk x2...................60
Drow Warrior....................6
Orc Warrior.....................3
Oddly I have that exact band printed out here somewhere under D for Dual-hulkquad | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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minatoman38
Underboss
1361 Posts
Minaniuonuma-shi, Japan
| | 03/22/2006 10:03 PM |
| The only variation I was thinking of was the Kenkyu Sneak instead of the Drow Warrior for the ranged sneak attack from hide. Not a major player but it can be useful.
quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
quote:
Originally posted by minatoman38
I've always wanted to use him but with the Difficult 7 I've never been able to up until now.
I'm thinking something along these lines....
Bugbear Champion of Erythnul....34
Wardrummer......................19
Orc Champion x2.................78
Umber Hulk x2...................60
Drow Warrior....................6
Orc Warrior.....................3
Oddly I have that exact band printed out here somewhere under D for Dual-hulkquad
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Robert Rosehart
Champion of the pixie
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wicked cool
Underboss
2123 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 10:57 PM |
| | i have 1 question. can a commander help this piece for morale? can it rally? | |
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kbales
Warrior
296 Posts
Edmonton, Alberta
| | 03/22/2006 11:50 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by wicked cool
i have 1 question. can a commander help this piece for morale? can it rally?
This is where I get confused, too. My understanding is that the Umber Hulk is allowed to make the initial morale save, but if it fails it cannot rally. Is this how it works?? This seems like a risky move. | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 11:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by wicked cool
i have 1 question. can a commander help this piece for morale? can it rally?
Under the current tournament rules, no and no. None of the current commanders for CE can put a Difficult 7 creature under command. An out-of-command creature cannot add a commander's rating to its morale saves, use commander effects, or rally. | |
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Zippy
Underboss
1993 Posts
Whitewater, WI
| | 03/23/2006 12:48 AM |
| | Another weakness of the umbers: All creatures with blindsight are immune to it's confusion. Archmage would have a field day with the umber army. | |
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Sean-Khan
Commander
2720 Posts
| | 03/23/2006 1:59 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zippy
Another weakness of the umbers: All creatures with blindsight are immune to it's confusion. Archmage would have a field day with the umber army.
Luckily he has blindsight. Without it, he wouldn't be so eager to use Mordy's swords... But hulks are also capable fighters and have burrow with which they can put archmages into difficult situations on some maps. Still, I wouldn't bear 6-hulk army against archmages.
All the armies talked here are pretty costly. Having a wardrummer and 6 hulks makes that one pretty much the most expensive band I've seen here! | |
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Zyla
Underboss
1193 Posts
| | 03/23/2006 2:26 AM |
| | figures with Blind-fight OR Blind-sight are immune to gaze attacks, which alot of figures used have. | |
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minatoman38
Underboss
1361 Posts
Minaniuonuma-shi, Japan
| | 03/23/2006 2:42 AM |
| There is something nice about being able to field a ridiculously expensive warband. At least if you win some of the time. Just having the valuable pieces isn't that much fun if they just sit in the closet.
I was thinking a 6 Umber Hulk plus Wardrummer band would be a good laugh just to see the reaction. But I never like leaving that one point unspent.
Thus I'd probably do 5 umber hulks, wardrummer and a tiefling captain for initiative.
I fielded a standard Drizzt band a few months ago that was fun to run. And last session a guy came in with an all-harbringer band he called Harbringer's Revenge. It was a Lawful Evil band with Black guard, 2 displacer beasts, a mindflayer, medusa and maybe something else...I cannot remember. Sadly that classic band didn't fair well. Although it did okay. | |
Robert Rosehart
Champion of the pixie
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11587 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 03/23/2006 2:55 AM |
| | I think it's a nice piece to try out, but there are remnants of being difficult 7 that still prevent it from being totally tier 1. While it does have all of its speed at its disposal now, the Umber Hulk still suffers from a poor morale save of +8 - it's good on its own, but there is still no commander that can tame its difficult 7 rating. So, now you have to consider that you will fail your morale check more than half the time, and once you do, you aren't coming back. I'm all for giving it a try, but let's not get ahead of ourselves as far as labelling it tier 1. On more than one occasion, my Orc Champion has rallied from near the edge of the board, to come back and win the game for me. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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DaemonKain
Warrior
312 Posts
| | 03/23/2006 7:22 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Thenameless
Couple of problems with a five Umber Hulk build. The current meta is rife with pieces immune to mind-affecting stuff like confusion. The other is having 5 Umber Hulks - not likely for most people. This is why Vassal is so awesome.
No one found this as funny as I did, I guess. ;)
Yes, this would be a dumb band, I agree. But can you imagine your opponents amazement and dismay if you showed up at a serious tourney with FIVE Umber Hulks? | |
-DaemonKain
Proud Mascot of Team Amish | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
12367 Posts
The G Spot
| | 03/23/2006 8:23 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Thenameless
Couple of problems with a five Umber Hulk build. The current meta is rife with pieces immune to mind-affecting stuff like confusion. The other is having 5 Umber Hulks - not likely for most people. This is why Vassal is so awesome.
Fortunately, I'm in this minority. Hmmm, five Umber Hulks. Have to consider that.
I have to say it blows my mind that we are talking about the UH as being a tier 1 capable piece. I'm speechless. I have no speech. [:D] | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 03/23/2006 8:26 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Thenameless
I think it's a nice piece to try out, but there are remnants of being difficult 7 that still prevent it from being totally tier 1. While it does have all of its speed at its disposal now, the Umber Hulk still suffers from a poor morale save of +8 - it's good on its own, but there is still no commander that can tame its difficult 7 rating. So, now you have to consider that you will fail your morale check more than half the time, and once you do, you aren't coming back. I'm all for giving it a try, but let's not get ahead of ourselves as far as labelling it tier 1. On more than one occasion, my Orc Champion has rallied from near the edge of the board, to come back and win the game for me.
That's the joy which is the Wardrummer. That's a +12 save now, as good as an Eye + Tiefling in the old days. Whoop, there it is ... and all that. | |
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orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
| | 03/23/2006 8:34 AM |
| | Interesting opinions here, and I can see what you all mean. Thanks guys! | |
My Trading Thread | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 03/23/2006 1:38 PM |
| | I saw the Umber hulks on e-bay with BIN prices of well over $100. Don't think I want to play an Umber Hulk that bad. | |
Champion of Cyclops
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 03/23/2006 2:56 PM |
| I did play an Umber Hulk band on vassal and won quite convincingly, but then I used a wardrummer and a cursed spirit. My opponent had three blood ghost berserkers at level 5. Needless to say two were confused and one of his fodder pieces. I just sat back and watched the fun as two thirds of his army stood around or attacked themselves.
The Hulk is quite good and maybe mixing one in is OK. Don't go overboard if you want to win a serious tournament. Even with the drummer it is still a risk and he won't be coming back if he fails. There are pieces that can reduce his morale save too and bring it back to 50/50 or worse. Plus the metagame still has HH, Maruts, IG, and undead in it that are immune.
Here is the band I ran, it is pretty good I think.
Ryld
Umber Hulk
Orc Champion x2
Orc Wardrummer
Cursed Spirit
Hyena
Orc Warrior
Give it a try and let me know how you do.
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Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 03/23/2006 4:52 PM |
| Although a creature with blind-fight is also immune, the number of tier 1ish figures with blind-fight is pretty small. Facing it is rare.
Only 3 possibilities for blind-fight come to mind ...
The Balor may be able to crack the edge of tier 1 with the introduction of the war drummer. The Dragonne might have the potential to reach tier 1 if it ever gets a good druid commander in the 35 point range. The tiefling captain also has blind-fight and could be used as a screener ... although if the UH were really an issue, warrior skeletons would serve fine as screeners ... | |
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Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
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Narcissus
Warrior
197 Posts
| | 03/23/2006 10:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
Grimlock Barbarian, Troglodyte Captain, and Zakya Rakshasa all have Blind-Fight. These are definitely competitive pieces, if not absolutely Tier One.
Sorry? Pardon? Oh, really? So, you are trying to tell me that the Trog Captain is DEFINITELY COMPETITIVE even though it falls below your magical ABSOLUTE save breakpoint of 13 (since it is level 6 and there are no LE figures with Cmd 7)? It would be nice if you followed your own rules there little fella.
P.S. The Grimlock Barbarian has Blindsight, not Blind-Fight. | |
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Narcissus
Warrior
197 Posts
| | 03/23/2006 11:11 PM |
| The fact is the Marut, HH and undead are a big part of the metagame, so you are bound to face them. That potentially makes the Umber Hulk little more than dead weight in those matchups as he is a pretty crap 30 point hitter otherwise.
Even less competitive figures like the Balor and Archmage and even Drizzt will be around also. People just like to play them. Most of these players may indeed be easier to outplay and the Umber Hulk may be less of a liability in those cases but there are still enough things out there to keep it well and truly out of tier one. I do not think it is even tier two. | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 03/24/2006 12:03 AM |
| I forgot to metion the fact that the wardrummer is very popular right now. Most players choose the resistance drum beat giving the CE band save +4. Now against the DC 15 of confusion you get Orc Champ at +11, Eye of Gruumsh at +12, Ogre Ravager +13, and Red Samurai at +13. Those are all most likely to pass the save. Also in other factions the better pieces have saves of 9 or 10.
Here is a list of top pieces that will most likely not suffer the effects:
Duergar Champion +10
Lord Soth immune
Lich immune
GFD +10
ArchMage immune
Efreeti +10
Steel Predator immune
Marut immune
Aspect Kord +10
Iron Golem immune
Justicator +10
HH immune
Death Slaad +10
Aspect Moradin +10
Shuluth +10
War Troll +10
HBG +9
ORavager +9
Couatl +9
Orog +9
Chraal +9
Naga +9
GithMonk +9
King O +9
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Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
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Narcissus
Warrior
197 Posts
| | 03/24/2006 1:24 AM |
| Love to! If I am not a Gen Con this year, I will be next year. I go over there nearly every year so you can COUNT on meeting me really soon.
Ask around. I am sure you will be glad we ran in to each other. It may be VERY different from what you expect. | |
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11587 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 03/24/2006 3:42 AM |
| | Chad the Dragonlord's Umber Hulk build looks a bit more reasonable then a multi-UH warband (cost notwithstanding). That way, you can get the UH to target a creature that might easily fall prey to its gaze attack. And if you end up drawing a quad Horror, then you still have a small chance with the Orc Champions. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 03/24/2006 6:23 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Narcissus
The fact is the Marut, HH and undead are a big part of the metagame, so you are bound to face them. That potentially makes the Umber Hulk little more than dead weight in those matchups as he is a pretty crap 30 point hitter otherwise.
I wouldn't dismiss the UH just because it doesn't work against constructs.
CE can use multiple Slaads (Chaos Hammer) to deal with the a Marut (and to a lesser extent HH's) But that leaves the warband weak to CG. A 30pt Umber Hulk will work just fine against most CG beatstiks. And if your facing another CE warband the UH should be able to burrow forwards to confuse the Orc Wardrummer. | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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rondom
Skirmisher
42 Posts
| | 03/24/2006 6:34 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Although a creature with blind-fight is also immune, the number of tier 1ish figures with blind-fight is pretty small. Facing it is rare.
Only 3 possibilities for blind-fight come to mind ...
The Balor may be able to crack the edge of tier 1 with the introduction of the war drummer. The Dragonne might have the potential to reach tier 1 if it ever gets a good druid commander in the 35 point range. The tiefling captain also has blind-fight and could be used as a screener ... although if the UH were really an issue, warrior skeletons would serve fine as screeners ...
What about Helmed Horrors - they are stronger than anything you mentioned, and are immune (regardless of Blindsight)? | |
Rondom
Remember - if you can use all your figures it's 'Full' - if not it's 'Restricted'. Anything that cycles figures out of use in a planned timetable is 'Planned Obsolesence'. Never accept your enemy's terms! | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
12367 Posts
The G Spot
| | 03/24/2006 7:20 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Narcissus
quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
Grimlock Barbarian, Troglodyte Captain, and Zakya Rakshasa all have Blind-Fight. These are definitely competitive pieces, if not absolutely Tier One.
Sorry? Pardon? Oh, really? So, you are trying to tell me that the Trog Captain is DEFINITELY COMPETITIVE even though it falls below your magical ABSOLUTE save breakpoint of 13 (since it is level 6 and there are no LE figures with Cmd 7)? It would be nice if you followed your own rules there little fella.
P.S. The Grimlock Barbarian has Blindsight, not Blind-Fight.
Can you two please take this silly bickering offline? | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
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Narcissus
Warrior
197 Posts
| | 03/24/2006 8:40 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
quote:
Originally posted by Narcissus
quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
Grimlock Barbarian, Troglodyte Captain, and Zakya Rakshasa all have Blind-Fight. These are definitely competitive pieces, if not absolutely Tier One.
Sorry? Pardon? Oh, really? So, you are trying to tell me that the Trog Captain is DEFINITELY COMPETITIVE even though it falls below your magical ABSOLUTE save breakpoint of 13 (since it is level 6 and there are no LE figures with Cmd 7)? It would be nice if you followed your own rules there little fella.
P.S. The Grimlock Barbarian has Blindsight, not Blind-Fight.
Can you two please take this silly bickering offline?
Certainly. My sincere apologies. | |
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CorneilleLoiseau
Sergeant
402 Posts
Qc, Canada
| | 03/24/2006 8:48 AM |
| TO CHAD:
Excuse, I don't have stat card but why is the steel predator immune to Confusion. It is an outsider, not a construct.
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CHAMPION OF THE ELDER BRAIN.
26 Completed transaction
17 trade completed Maxminis (13): Vrecknidj (2), AussieJim, Razarac, Ghendar, NixLord, Sir Bozak, kestrel, Sam500, yack, minatoman38, Brez and Aesnath.
Hordeling (4);rex,Brentos,greyhaze and greg cooper
Completed sale: (10)Whitehand,TwilightRaven,Melrune,Villiam, azuretide, Carta Magica, Vash/Trent, Korvax (hordeling), Kestrel and Olaf the stout. | |
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