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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
    
Walnut Creek, CA
 | | 03/22/2006 8:14 PM |
| There are many pieces in older sets that are interesting, but priced in such a fashion that they are useless in even semi-competitive play. I plan to occasionally suggest a piece for discussion on how we would reprice a piece to make it more useful.
I will suggest minor changes to the abilities of some of these creatures to remove rules that have been abandoned, such as the difficult ability. I will try to modify creatures as little as possible to keep the discussion fairly pure.
I'd like us to suggest two prices for each piece we discuss ... a competitive price that would make the piece a tier 1 competitive piece, and a friendly price that would make the piece be useful in friendly competitive play, but not worthy of consideration as a top tier 1 unit.
The first piece I would like to suggest for discussion is the Large Fire Elemental.
Large Fire Elemental
CE
50 POINTS
LVL: 8
SPD: 10
AC: 19
HP: 60
MELEE ATTACK: +10/+10 (10 + 5 Fire)
RANGED ATTACK: --
TYPE: Large Elemental
SPECIAL ABILITIES:
Difficult 12;
Requires Commander;
DR 5;
Fire Shield 5 (Any creature that hits this creature with a melee attack takes 5 fire damage);
Immune Fire;
Melee Reach 2;
Mobility (+4 AC against attacks of opportunity);
Vulnerable Cold
I think this is the most overpriced piece in DDM (by percentage). As this figure is widely considered to be vastly overpriced, I am removing the difficult condition without adding a replacement negative ability.
What do we have after that modification? A swift moving requires commander elemental that deals +10/+10 (10 + 5 energy) with a good AC, DR and a useful damaging special ability. Hmmmm ... that sounds familiar ...
It ends up having similarities to the Chraal, but with far worse hps and a much higher price. The failure to cross the 60 hit point barrier is an extreme drawback for a piece. It does end up with some advantages over the Chraal - It deals damage every time it is hit, it moves faster, and it has a higher AC versus AoOs. However, it lacks the deathburst and cone of the chraal. The flameshield ability does match some of the utility of the deathburst, but minor fire resistance completely negates that ability. Further, it has a slightly lower level, and it deals fire damage, which is a little less useful than cold damage in terms of competitive pieces with energy resistance.
Accordingly, I'd think that this piece could take a cue from the Chraal to determine its pricing. A chraal is an aggressively priced piece for tier 1 play. Accordingly, this slightly inferior piece would need to be cheaper than the Chraal to be tier 1 competitive. However, a price similar to the Chraal's might allow it to be playable in friendly games without getting a chance to be competitive.
Competitive price: 30
Friendly price: 36
What do you think? | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 9:23 PM |
| For the most part, I agree. I think 30 might be pushing it a little on the low side. Even though it's worse than the Charall in many ways, I still don't think you can cost a creature like that a cost of less than 32 or 33. If that means that it's worse than the Chrall, then I think it's because some of it's stats are out of balance with each other in a way that the Chraal's aren't.
Although Flameshield has weaknesses compared to Deathburst, there's a difference in how it plays that I think gives it the advantage. While you can avoid Deathburst by using reach, killing the commander, or even moving away from the Chrall, you can't avoid Flameshield at all.
Looking at the Fire Elemental, it seems like a good piece to go after weaker enemies. It's speed and Mobility mean it can get there, and Flameshield + DR means that non-melee focused pieces can't even effectively attack it without hurting themselves as much as they're hurting it.
If it's costed at 30, you could get bands like:
Urthok 34
3x Duergar Champ 99
2x Fire Elemental 60
2x Warrior Skeleton 6
Blah! 8 activation LE quint! Which is why I recommend 32 or 33 points for the Fire Elemental in this excercise. [:)]
Fun topic! | |
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AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 9:34 PM |
| | Though Urthok can't bring in the fire elemental since he is CE, I do agree with Benimotos sentiments. Id suggest competitive 31-33. In agreement with you on friendly, 36-38 looks about right | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 9:57 PM |
| Oh heh, LE, CE, they're all really the same faction. Hey, you can see how much fact checking I was doing by how I spelled Chraal 3 different ways.
Okay, so in CE, 33 points isn't as much of a breakpoint as it is in LE. None of the low-30s CE commanders pack the combination of mild survivability and high commander rating that Urthok does.
Although I'm now disagreing with Aesoph after he went to all the trouble to agree with me, I can see 30 points for the piece in CE. There's only a short list of survivable, competitive CE commanders and with the exception of Ryld, they all have low command ratings. In that faction, I can see costing it as low as 30 points. | |
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frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 10:42 PM |
| | I would agree that low 30s would be competitive, and mid 30s would be friendly. High 30s would be no better than it is currently priced, and lower than 30 would be too competitively priced. | |
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 03/22/2006 10:42 PM |
| I think 33 would be tier 1 competitive, even in CE. 38 might show up in some builds, but by then it's a more friendly piece, and a better fit in either high varience trick warbands or theme warbands.
By the by, you aren't doing this to subliminally prod R&D to produce a large uncommon Fierce Fire Elemental (a la Loyal Earth Elemental) for an upcoming set, are you? | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 03/23/2006 7:52 AM |
| Recosting figures for casual play is a pretty cool idea. I have seen it suggested before, but no one has really put any serious effort into it. The reason for that is the time involved. Go through Harbinger and seriously recost everything to be balanced. That takes a LOT of work for just one set even.
Probably the hardest part comes from actually balancing the figures. Changing 1 or 2 won't do much. But if you recost an entire set that really messes up the power curve of all the figures with new and old costs. | |
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2637 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 03/23/2006 8:52 AM |
| What about the 25 dmg twice beater the Large Earth Elemental??
I can get him hitting at a max of +11/+11(30 Magic) | |
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orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
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Helzapoppn
Warrior
258 Posts
| | 03/23/2006 10:23 AM |
| Perhaps a better comparison is with the Loyal Earth Elemental:
Loyal Earth Elemental
LG - 34 pts
Lvl 8; Spd 4; AC 18; HP 70
Melee Attack: +12/+12 (15)
Type: Large Elemental
Special Abilities:
- Burrow 4
- Cleave
- DR5
- Earthbound (Attack -4 against creatures with Flight)
- Melee Reach 2
- Requires Commander
I can see the revised Large Fire Elemental pricing out at 33 or 34 points, putting it even with the LEE given the various tradeoffs between the two (and the differences between LG and CE).
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 03/23/2006 3:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by taliesin
By the by, you aren't doing this to subliminally prod R&D to produce a large uncommon Fierce Fire Elemental (a la Loyal Earth Elemental) for an upcoming set, are you?
Nope. They'll produce what they want. This is strictly an exercise in figure recosting considerations to allow people a chance to put some older figures to use in friendly games.quote:
Originally posted by Helzapoppn
Perhaps a better comparison is with the Loyal Earth Elemental:
...
I can see the revised Large Fire Elemental pricing out at 33 or 34 points, putting it even with the LEE given the various tradeoffs between the two (and the differences between LG and CE).
The LoEE and the (revised) LFE are quite different. People see similarities in the large Fire and Earth elementals because they were introduced in the same set. However, they are quite different beasts.
Regardless, the LoEE is a tier 2 piece at 34 points. It does not appear in any warbands that have a chance at consistent wins in a tourney ... to make it tier 1, you'd need to bump up th AB, increase the damage or substantially reduce the cost... but that is a discussion for another time.
Any other thoughts on the (revised) LFE? Some other pieces to look at for comparison purposes: Winter Wolf, Fiendish Girallon, Feral Minotaur and Umber Hulk.
Another thing for people to consider: This guy still lives and dies with his commander. Using more than 2 when you don't know which map you'll be using would be problematic. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 03/23/2006 3:32 PM |
| The comments are interesting so far, but tend to lack in details.
So far, the concensus is that a 30 price is too agressive, even for a solid tier 1 piece. Why? What warband built with this guy at 30 points would be too strong?
Here is a sample warband with him at 30 points:
2 X Large Fire Elemental (60 - 60 / 2)
Ryld Argith (55 - 115 / 3)
Orc Champion (40 - 155 / 4)
Orc Wardrummer (19 - 174 / 5)
2 X Quaggoth Slave (20 - 194 / 7)
Timber Wolf (5 - 199 / 8)
Is that really stronger than:
Ryld Argith (45 - 55 / 1)
3 X Orc Champion (117 - 172 / 4)
Orc War Drummer (19 - 191 / 5)
3 X Orc Warrior (9 - 200 / 8)
Where does the fire elemental version match up better? | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 03/23/2006 4:35 PM |
| Comparing him with the Loyal Earth Elemental cements, in my mind, that his Friendly cost could be about 33 points. Like the Lyoal Earth, people won't even consider him for competitive play at all, once they get used to his stats, but he'll be pretty decent if they do use him.
Competitive? 30 is still too high, whether he's LE or not. For him to see competitive play, Benimoto, there's gotta be a 'Quint' type band with him in it, because he doesn't match up with other hitters at all, AND has some terrible disadvantages. I think 28 points could be about right, not sure exactly, and that could still be too high. He doesn't exactly compare that favorably with the Grimlock, given that the Fire elemental has so many disadvantages.
Good against weaker creatures? In competitive play? What weaker creatures? The 2 or 3 fodder units each warband is bringing? Fire Shield isn't very good, especially on a unit that takes 4 hits (from a low damage warband!) to kill.
I like the topic, jgsugden.
- Dagni | |
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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 03/23/2006 8:14 PM |
| Anyone remember this discussion? It was in some ways about recosting old and overpriced figures to make them more competitive.
http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1504 | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 03/23/2006 9:37 PM |
| I'm an idiot when it comes to costing. But as a loudmouth I'll sound off.
With speed 10 and mobility he will be moved to base spellcasters and commanders i.e. "rear support". Or he'll be a frontliner. In CE it'll be the former since it has kinda crappy damage for CE beaters. This is offset by all of the CFX (commander effects) in CE that boost damage. It has a great attack % for CE. The flameshield is neat because it works all the time and if it forces damage on someone elses turn, sweet. The LFE is also an elemental so it gets all the nifty immunities.
By comparison the LoEE is a slow frontline beater (and only a soso one)in a faction that lacks good alternatives (point wise) with a slightly better attack and marginally better damage. IIRC saves are about equal. It gets no energy damage and has no area effect. It is vulnerable to flyers (or suffers against them). LG offers CFX that boost attack and damage and reduce damage taken. Also LG has more tech to provide magic weapon. Again elemental immunities.
The Chraal is almost as fast, equal attacks, more HP, and better stationary AC. It has a better save. It is almost always a frontline beater with an Area effect Spec Ability. LE has alot of CFX that increase attack % or boost saves. Not alot of tech support buff wise. Chraal get nifty elemental immunities.
Chraal = 35 points (one of the most aggresively costed units in the game, the best costing possible)
LoEE = 34 points (I'd guess about 7 points to high to be the Uber-Beater all the LG kids want, not well costed)
So the LFE loses Difficult 12.
It only has two drawbacks:
One it requires a commander;
CE is weak on commanders but has some tough bashers none the less. The Balor, the Flind, the Yuan Ti Abomonation, Death Slaad, and the Hezrou to name a few. All beater commanders that can be held in reserve untill the rest of the band has widdled down the field a bit. Few have a commander effect that benefits the LFE but other, cheaper, commanders do.
Two it is Vulnerable to Cold;
This is big but not as big as Vulnerable to Fire. The LFE will be immune to Gauths and resistant to Efreet, Helmed Horrors, fire-ball tossers, Soth and Death Knights, the Gold and Red Dragons. It will suffer against Ogre Mages, Mordenkainen, Silver and White Dragons and anything with Fire Foe. Against Chraals the vulnerabilities will balance out as Flame Shield will actually do more damage overtime than deathburst which is really just a spoil sport kinda thing.
After writing that last little bit I'm now convinced that all those extra HP on the Chraal were added to help it survive the top tier competitive pieces it would face. Fire users are MUCH more common than cold users
It doesn't break the 60 HP threshhold but with the inclusion of things that can do 35+ damage in a hit now I'm not convinced that's as good a standard to go by anymore. But that's just me and I frequently don't "get it".
All that taken into consideration;
Fun Cost = 39 points
The LFE is sub par to the Red Sam and the Orc Champ but the immunities ARE a big deal.
Competitive Cost = 37 points
The LFE is subpar to other CE beaters. Elemental Immunities are a Big Deal, especially in a faction that lacks competitive pieces that have them. It will completely nerf the Gauth (for 1/2 the cost of the Large Red Dragon) and not suffer against any other highly competitive pieces, at least no more than the Red Sam.
While it lacks HP and damage it more than makes up for this lack with speed, AC (high for CE), and immunities.
If it were costed at 30 points it would be in every single CE band. In many it would appear in multiples. It would be a No-Brainer to include with little to trade off for its inclusion. The +10/+10 (with reach) alone would be worth it in this Faction at that cost.
This was a good idea for an article, I look forward to the others.
A question though. Does any one here believe that the early figures are a little too well costed (by and large)?
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Tooninki
Warrior
272 Posts
Finland
| | 03/24/2006 4:11 AM |
| | Well i know nothing of repricing older minis but what if someone would give LFE something like Cold foe (same as fire foe) and/or Fire burst as special ability?! Would that make him competitive? | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 03/24/2006 2:07 PM |
| The next step would be for people to consider building some mock warbands using the altered version of this figure at the various prices discussed.
I'll be doing so tonight ... and I'll try to get people to let me try it out on Monday night at my regular DDM league night. | |
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