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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
    
 | | 03/26/2006 4:11 PM |
| So, numerous people replied that CG could use a good melee figure. Robb took it a step further, quoting him from the WotC boards that he would "Make a piece called Reasonably Priced CG Beater, in the 35-42 point range." It's a common theme, and probably correct. CG's main-line melee figures are disappointing. The Berserker is powerful but self-destructive, and most other choices in the faction are disappointing on some level. If they weren't disappointing, they'd get played more. So CG needs a better melee piece in the 30 to 50 point range, roughly.
Everyone knows what the ideal stats are for such a figure. Needs to have at least 65 HP, Speed 6, AC 18 or better, and hit reasonably often for 15 or 20 Magic damage. Making it work with D&D RPG Mechanics is the issue.
I think I've got it. Following RPG rules for items/treasure/etc., I can make that work on a Level 9 character in CG. The Paladin of Freedom variant class (See "Variant Classes" in the Unearthed Arcana, or the same section in the D20 SRD) fits the CG alignment, and a Level 9 Human of this class on a 25 point ability array is able to come up with something like this. Bear in mind this is 'Prototype', and loaded with everything I could fit on it D&D RPG-wise without breaking level limits. If you can find ways to simplify this, please do!
Paladin of Freedom
"But as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" - Patrick Henry
"lol, n00b" - Likely response if the internet existed in the 1770s.
Faction: CG
Cost: ## Points -- Suggestions Welcome
Level: 13
Speed: 6
AC: 20
HP: 75
Melee: +15/+10 (20 Magic)
Abilities:
Independent
Smite Evil +10 [][][][]
Lay on Hands 20 []
Aura of Resolve (As Fearless, except for morale saves caused by damage)
Immune Confusion, Dominate, Incite
Some notes on RPG mechanics effecting the Skirmish stats: The abilities section is admittedly a little complex; the Paladin of Freedom's immunities aren't quite the same as an LG Paladin's. Aura of Resolve along with the Immunities were an attempt to simulate his Immunity to Compulsion. This is about as close as I can get it and reflect his ability to fail the "Morale Save at Half HP" -- Unlikely but possible, since the PoF isn't genuinely Fearless like an LG Paladin.
Independent is on there to represent his using a feat slot on Improved Initiative. It's 'in flavor' for the creature. I suppose one could also throw in Initiative Booster (+2 to Init checks) to better represent it, but that might violate the "Keep things simple" credo of Skirmish mini design and might raise its cost.
The melee damage and attack ratings come from a +1 Greasword, Weapon Focus, pre-cast Divine Favor (see Mounted Paladin for a similar use of this), and Power Attack. The end result is someone who can hit for 20 damage. I could drop the melee attack to +14/+9 (20 Magic) and pick up Blind Fight, which would help against Duergars, but is yet another Ability on the card.
Having four Smites comes from Level 5 Paladin plus the Extra Smiting feat. Turn Undead was left out because the Paladin has no business trying it in a Skirmish; it's wasted points.
Major Cost Reduction potential: The creature can be dropped to Level 8, losing 2 Speed, 5 HP, at least 1 AC (maybe 2), and making its attack rating much higher but dropping its damage to 15 Magic by revoking the use of Power Attack. This could easily lower its cost by a lot. I'll leave it up to someone else to work out the specifics on this, but the modifications could easily be done.
So, is this on the right track? It's a non-Barbarian (so it gets a decent AC), hits hard, hits semi-reliably, and has some useful immunities. Or would the weakened version in the paragraph above be about right instead? | |
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|
taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 03/26/2006 4:37 PM |
| I think his abilities are very close to the warforged barbarian, and would wind up priced in the high 40's or low 50's.
He needs speed 6, so however you lower him, don't lose that, or this piece will never see play (especially in CG). 15 magic is still very playable, although the cost should be somewhere in the 30's by that point. | |
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 03/26/2006 4:53 PM |
| | Being in CG I'd suggest losing 2 maybe 3 smites, 2 ac, and 3 levels. Thatd put him in a nice upper 30/lower40s slot. | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 03/26/2006 5:18 PM |
| Going to 15 damage is easily, casually done. Remove Power Attack, add Blind Fight. You end up with Blind Fight and a Melee Attack of +17/+12 (15 Magic) or +16/+11 (15 Magic) depending on how you arrange the RPG Feats. Makes him both more useful and less useful against Duergar Champions at the same time; needs 3 hits to force morale instead of 2, but won't likely miss the Conceal.
As far as dropping AC, levels, etc. go: That's RPG mechanics. You could do this, but you'd severely weaken the character. The only sensible way to lower AC by 2 is to give him a Barbarian level, making him PoF 8, Barb 1. Or even PoF 7, Barb 1. This would still get us back to 20 Magic damage however, so it gets us right back into the high cost area. Any other method of accomplishing this requires some absolutely silly design choices on the RPG end.
Dropping the Level by 3 requires making him a Level 4 or Level 5 character; Paladins get Save +4 built in as a class feature, like how Fighters get bonus feats. To get this low you'd either need to strip a very important class feature, change the class outright (A CG Fighter could do this; they don't get Save +4), or lower this thing's levels to the point where it wouldn't have 65 or more HP. | |
- Irrationally Fanatical Champion of Pegasus-mounted cavalry
- Proud member of Team Low Tier Beasting: I play CG as my main faction!
- Garland, TX 2006 Qualifier Champion
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|
Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 03/26/2006 5:28 PM |
| | It would be too costly, given that it would have a price bump for AC 20 and Save 13 in a Chaotic faction. Conceal 6 and a low save with Bold would be better for a Chaotic Good mini. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 03/26/2006 6:55 PM |
| That would be a cool figure and all, but I would much rather have a hitter with speed 9 or better, even if its at the cost of 2-4 points of AC.
I have been thinking for a long time that what CG needs is something like a Longstrider Ranger that can do more damage, even if it's some sort of smite(+10 or more). Even something like a Half-Giant Psychic Warrior with more hit points would be good. Maybe it could have sort of temporary speed burst (like hustle) so you can threaten half of your opponents warband when they can't even reach you in a double move.
I feel that a CG hitter should require a little more "finesse" than a similarly priced CE hitter, which will allow the faction to keep some form of identity while still having effective melee figures. | |
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Knight of the Elf Duskblade
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|
elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 03/26/2006 7:23 PM |
| Got to say that I agree with Scruffydude. What you're posting looks like an excellent piece... at the high forties in points and in Lawful Good.
Compare the piece to Rikka:
Faction: CG
Cost: ## Points -- Suggestions Welcome
Level: +8
Speed: -2 no fly
AC: +4
HP: equal
Melee: adds a second attack at equal damage
Abilities:
Independent (an addition)
Smite Evil +10 [][][][] (an addition)
Lay on Hands 20 [] (superior to Rikka's Cure Serious Wounds spell because it's a special ability rather than a spell)
Aura of Resolve (As Fearless, except for morale saves caused by damage)
Immune Confusion, Dominate, Incite (probably better than the combination of DR, SR, and minor energy resistances).
Not Unique (also a major consideration)
+8 levels, +4 AC, the second attack, independent, and the four uses of smite evil would have to add a lot of cost to the mini vis a vis Rikka.
It's also worth comparing the piece to the Justicator:
Level: +3
Speed: not flying (but presumably small based too)
AC: -2
HP: -5
Melee: Attack -2, damage +5
Abilities:
Independent (an addition)
Smite Evil +10 [][][][] (three more uses (and smite evil is probably a bit better than smite chaos since chaotic evil+lawful evil is more minis than chaotic evil+chaotic good)
Lay on Hands 20 [] (an addition)
Aura of Resolve (As Fearless, except for morale saves caused by damage) (an addition)
Immune Confusion, Dominate, Incite (not quite as good as paralysis immunity)
The extra uses of smite evil, extra damage, and lay on hands, easily make up for the other differences from the justicator. Noting the extra three levels and aura of resolve make this figure straight up better.
So, what kind of a figure might be good in CG? I would think that something along the lines of a XenDrick champion: fast and requiring finesse, but with the ability to do both ranged and melee damage and some kind of a situational damage boost would do the trick.
And, to tell the truth, I don't think the figue would need to be between 30 and 50 points either. A 20 something pointer like the XenDrick champ or a sixty or seventy something point mini along the lines of the hill giant barbarian would also do well for CG. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 03/26/2006 7:23 PM |
| With all those abilities it'd have to be excrutiatingly high costed. Something more mainstream would be likely lower level, lower AC and without all the special abilities. I'd be okay with it as a solid piece like the Warforged Barbarian with perhaps a little less somewhere in the mix. In fact the WFB would be perfect if it was about 8 points less. It'd see a lot of play and be a very solid piece.
R~ | |
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| 
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 03/26/2006 8:06 PM |
| True, but under 45 costwise the WFB would be seriously playable. It wouldn't be FB land or nothing else.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 03/26/2006 8:47 PM |
| This is why I like the 'put too much on, and then strip things away' approach to game design. There are a few ways to cut down this piece's defense. One could 'Special Case' their Save +4 away or cut it to just a Save +2, making it somewhere in the Level 8 to 10 area. I suppose it'd fit the design paradigm. After doing that, stripping away a level, removing about 4,000-5,000 worth of items...I got this:
Paladin of Freedom
CG, ## Points
Type: Medium Humanoid (Human)
Level: 10 (RPG level 8, +2 from class features)
Speed: 6 (Boots of Striding and Springing)
AC: 18 (Base 10 + Full Plate)
HP: 70 (Con 14 + Improved Toughness)
Melee: +16/+11 (15 Magic)
Abilities:
Blind Fight
Paladin of Freedom Traits (see previous posts)
Smite Evil +10 [][]
Lay On Hands 20 []
Of course, other lines of thought included a 20-29 point figure. I agree with that notion; it'd be nice to see some better ones here. The Elf Swashbuckler doesn't quite cut it, and the Half-Ogre is only really useful in specific cases or alongside a Brass Samurai. Xen'Driks are alright, I suppose.
As far as a 70ish point titan like the Hill Giant Barbarian...that could be interesting too. LG has Marut, CE has Hill Giant Barbarian, LE has... ...well, I'm sure they have something in this category. Would someone care to try their hand at a 70-80 point "melee titan" for CG? | |
- Irrationally Fanatical Champion of Pegasus-mounted cavalry
- Proud member of Team Low Tier Beasting: I play CG as my main faction!
- Garland, TX 2006 Qualifier Champion
My trading thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19725 | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 03/26/2006 8:50 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Pegasus Knight
Going to 15 damage is easily, casually done. Remove Power Attack, add Blind Fight. You end up with Blind Fight and a Melee Attack of +17/+12 (15 Magic) or +16/+11 (15 Magic) depending on how you arrange the RPG Feats. Makes him both more useful and less useful against Duergar Champions at the same time; needs 3 hits to force morale instead of 2, but won't likely miss the Conceal.
As far as dropping AC, levels, etc. go: That's RPG mechanics. You could do this, but you'd severely weaken the character. The only sensible way to lower AC by 2 is to give him a Barbarian level, making him PoF 8, Barb 1. Or even PoF 7, Barb 1. This would still get us back to 20 Magic damage however, so it gets us right back into the high cost area. Any other method of accomplishing this requires some absolutely silly design choices on the RPG end.
Dropping the Level by 3 requires making him a Level 4 or Level 5 character; Paladins get Save +4 built in as a class feature, like how Fighters get bonus feats. To get this low you'd either need to strip a very important class feature, change the class outright (A CG Fighter could do this; they don't get Save +4), or lower this thing's levels to the point where it wouldn't have 65 or more HP.
But they do not convert exactly from RPG to minis each time. For example the Duergar Champ is level 8 on the RPG side but has a save 10, dwarves traditionally have the +4 built into their saves but they cut it by 2. While converting from RPG to skirmish is a good way to do it, you don't have to let it handcuff you. | |
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| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11768 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 03/26/2006 8:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by scruffydude7
I feel that a CG hitter should require a little more "finesse" than a similarly priced CE hitter, which will allow the faction to keep some form of identity while still having effective melee figures.
That's essentially the point with a CG piece. The trick is trying to balance its finesse ability(ies) against the raw power of the CE beater. What if we were to tack on the Steelheart's shot to the rest of the Goliath Barbarian? You could make the opponent come to you with a decent shot, and once engaged, you'd still have a nasty melee element to deal with - I'd like to see this piece go head-to-head with an Orc Champion. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
|
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 03/26/2006 9:01 PM |
| Really, there are two ways to go about this.
One, create another unit that CG can use. A melee fighter, whatever.
Two, create a commander or other creature that can bring many others back to the fore-front. Witness the Warforged Scout, Bodyguard and Orc Wardrummer.
Imagine a 50-ish point commander that boosted shifters somehow (gain fearless? gain saves? gain damage output?) with a decent-enough commander rating.
Imagine a mid-40s commander that had a decent enough rating and you could mix in 3 Warforged Barbs and still hit 7 or 8 acts.
Imagine a commander that gave units that started near it Skirmish +5 or +10 (extra damage if you move before attacking)
Any of these would catapult CG back into serious tournament contention. | |
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| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11768 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 03/26/2006 9:20 PM |
| | True, the commander/synergy approach is a good one. Many of CG's hitters are so close right now, that it would be a shame to create one that is head and shoulders above the rest. Instead, more synergy would be nice, so that we can keep playing our older favourites. | |
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|
Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 03/26/2006 10:03 PM |
| | Commander synnergy is a fun thought. The Inspired Lieutenant may be on to the right track here; it has inverse synnergy; it helps melee figures despite primarily being a spellcaster. Maybe something along those lines for CG? | |
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| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11768 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 03/26/2006 10:17 PM |
| | If CG ever falls too far below the other factions in terms of competitiveness, the easy fix is a commander with "spellcasting followers gain perfect targeting". Imagine a Pyromancer with this, or even an Archmage being able to target an insulated commander with Mord Sword? | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
|
jedijon
Sergeant
474 Posts
| | 03/27/2006 3:25 PM |
| I'm not sure if this is dead or sleeping, but I'll interject either way.
While I still feel that ways to give CG movement (through walls, higher speeds) is their flavorful niche versus more ranged capability and 'all-around' spellcasting (because both of those are more situational than they are tactical vis-a-vis the HEBI--just base the poor pansy!), let's try these two minis on for size.
Ambushing Assasin CG 35 Pts Rare
Lvl 7
Spd 8
AC 14
HP 55
Melee Attack: +16 (30)
Type: Elf
Special Abilities: Cleave, Stable Footing
Quick Cast, Melee Reach 2
Spells: 4th-dimension door []
All-seeing Archer CG 19 pts Unc
Lvl 5
Spd 8
AC 14
HP 40
Melee Attack: +8 (10)
Ranged Attack: +13 (20)
Type: Elf
Special Abilities: All-seeing (this figure's ranged attack is
not affected by anything that blocks line of sight)
Precise Shot, Selective shot 2
What we're really trying to do here I think is determine the archetype of CG--it can't just be CE in another wrapper can it? Well, we've still got to adhere to the principles of explosive, short-term very SCARY damage from pieces without lawful staying power.
The rare fighter piece had a TON of mobility, DD into place and whirl, or run up whirl and DD out since you're not lasting the round if you don't win init.
Rather than just insane speed though--we've got to get this faction more of an ability to apply damage where they want to. ONLY then can we mess around with the whole spell-casting mess and find a point value in an established warband archetype that you can just swap an equivalent spell-caster in that still has a similar effect as the piece it replaces.
In a CE band, we're looking about 215-240 potential damage a round. The above minis allow us to create a highly mobile warband with a slightly higher potential, and a slightly lower survivability than current CE offerings. The archer especially can be worked into tons of places. I'm sure if anyone responds they're going to scream BROKEN!! It's only 4 more points than the graycloak/steelheart. And yet CG is at the bottom of the tourney heap because it still hasn't found its "flavor" (read EFFECTIVENESS utilizing the game mechanics of DDM) after all this time. Rather than a support archer to kill the now non-existant fodder CG needs a small and mobile piece that can deal appreciable damage when and where it sees fit. The steelheart is a step in the right direction because archers need to MOVE, hence 1 attk. They also need to be able to hit where they want, hence the ability to magically see through walls and target the closest or second closest enemy. But enough about that, let's move on to some builds--
With Ryld (obviously you want Init since your pieces will be dying like flies!)
Ryld
Frenzied B
A. Assasin
A. Assasin
A. Archer
Elf Archer
6 activations (another reason for Ryld)--appx 235 DMG total
IM
A. Assasin x3
A. Archer X3
Celestial D. Badger
8 activations - appx 255 DMG total
To get back to the original proposal by Pegasus Knight, I'm not sure I like the paladin of freedom. While he seems to be accurate to the spirit of D&D, he just doesn't excite me in the game. When I play CG, I want to be all over the place. I want to have minis that are harder for my opponents to play against than they are for me to play WITH--because they can be anywhere striking anyone--striking terror into the hearts of evil doers :)
Well, anyway--that's my take on what would be a fresh new face for CG for me FWIW They're not based in the RPG--I could hardly even craft a second level character, let alone tell you if these minis are 'possible' given the current 3.5 rule-set and supplements. | |
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|
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 03/27/2006 4:09 PM |
| Of course, I really want to try something like this ...
Warchanter
Half-Ogre Barb x2
Goliath x2
And either
Rikka
Wiz Tac
Or
Pyromancer
Half-Ogre Barb or Xen'drik Champ + filler
Biggest problem w/ the Warchanter is the vulnerability to assasination ... and the easiest way is with breath weapons / lines. The large bases from the HOBs help that somewhat, letting you be 6 away (so they get the cfx) but not within 6 for the eventual cone. WizTac + Rikka can be fun, but you're still at risk from some serious assasination.
You can also mitigate the elemtnal assasination w/ the Pyromancer (immune-whatever on the Warchanter and resist-whatever on the PyromanceR).
You should have enough bases to keep a flyer from landing and hitting the Warchanter.
Of course, you're still toast if you see another WizTac.
I wish being in command still meant something ... if we were doing 8, maps but still had the rushing/speed two in place I'd seriously play something like this. | |
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Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 03/27/2006 4:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jedijon
Ambushing Assasin CG 35 Pts Rare
Lvl 7
Spd 8
AC 14
HP 55
Melee Attack: +16 (30)
Type: Elf
Special Abilities: Cleave, Stable Footing
Quick Cast, Melee Reach 2
Spells: 4th-dimension door []
You gueesed it right, I'd call both of these outright broken on a first glance.
The assasin might be a bit more balanced of the two, and it might even be a little too fragile. Save 7, AC 14 and HP 55 on a 35+ point cost piece is asking for trouble. The main Problem with this piece is how horrendously broken it gets with Brass Samurai. With a good player manouvering the Samurai, teleport + move one square + whirlwind is just crazy. Take out the melee reach 2, and the Stable Footing (Its fast and teleporting, it doesnt need anymore help to move around) and it seems pretty balanced. Like a more offensive version of Rikka.
quote:
Originally posted by jedijon
All-seeing Archer CG 19 pts Unc
Lvl 5
Spd 8
AC 14
HP 40
Melee Attack: +8 (10)
Ranged Attack: +13 (20)
Type: Elf
Special Abilities: All-seeing (this figure's ranged attack is
not affected by anything that blocks line of sight)
Precise Shot, Selective shot 2
The main problem with the Archer is the wording on all-seeing. As written it would allow shooting through anything, including blocking terrain. Not to mention 20 damage is a little over the top on a ranged figure, especially when costing less than 20 points. Its rare enough to see melee beaters below 35 points do that much damage these days. A more reasonable damage would be something like 10 magic + 5 'element'. And still, a single fast+durable unit basing this will make it cry. I'd say lower the damage, take All-seeing away and replace it with Sidestep, and it would be pretty ok. | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
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jedijon
Sergeant
474 Posts
| | 03/27/2006 4:46 PM |
| You know what's funny--I forgot to add the whirlwind on the Assasin. In my build, it's supposed to come standard. That creature is essentially a very versitile living spell. You'll rarely get more than one attack with it, so you need to make it count. Broken? Not IMO.
Same goes for the archer. These are two minis that start with a bang and end with a whimper. If playtesting on the archer shows it's a problem, then give it Melee DMG 5--everybody bases archers anyway. . . they're supposed to shoot, and shoot hard, because they'll only have one or two shots if they're a real threat to your warband. I could see 15 DMG if it was magic--but let's push the limits here. We're talking (presumably) about tier I contenders, not minis that are simply ports of what's out now. I'd rather drop the hit-points on the archer to 25 than take away the 20 damage. Seeing through walls WAS intentional. I intent to try these against a QUAD, and LE's champs soon to see with my own eyes whether concepts of this nature are broken or fantasy tier I pieces CG should get. | |
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|
Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 03/27/2006 5:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jedijon
Seeing through walls WAS intentional.
Ok, not to sound like a bastard or anything, but it just doesnt make sense. I mean shooting arrows through tens of feets through solid stone, not to mention seeing through it is... stupid.
I'm not saying this game should be the most realistic one out there, but give me a break! | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
|
JohnnyFive
Warrior
207 Posts
| | 03/27/2006 9:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Really, there are two ways to go about this.
One, create another unit that CG can use. A melee fighter, whatever.
Two, create a commander or other creature that can bring many others back to the fore-front. Witness the Warforged Scout, Bodyguard and Orc Wardrummer.
Imagine a 50-ish point commander that boosted shifters somehow (gain fearless? gain saves? gain damage output?) with a decent-enough commander rating.
Imagine a mid-40s commander that had a decent enough rating and you could mix in 3 Warforged Barbs and still hit 7 or 8 acts.
Imagine a commander that gave units that started near it Skirmish +5 or +10 (extra damage if you move before attacking)
Any of these would catapult CG back into serious tournament contention.
In addition to those, how about a Bard who's essentially a Wardrummer-esque piece who can buff CG's terrifically low saves?
On the whole "35-45 point melee" front, I would be happy if they'd make a piece who was, statistically speaking, a close relative to the Zakya Rakshasa- a good, reliable, efficient mini like that would definitly open up new avenues for CG. | |
Champion of the Elf Duskblade | |
|
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 4:29 AM |
| What I wouldnt mind to see is a good blocker for archers, something that can hold the enemies put. I'd go like this;
Elven Skirmisher
Faction: CG
Cost: 35-40? points
Level: 8
Speed: 8 (Light armor + Boots of S&S)
Ac: 20 (High Dexterity + a good, magical light armor like Mithril Chainshirt + a large shield)
Hp: 65 (Needs to be durable enough, yet dont want HP weighing down the point cost)
Melee +14/+9 (10 magic + Electricity) (Assuming Elf with Dexterity 18, 8 levels of fighter, Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse with ...lets say +1 Shocking Elven Warblade (Or whatever that sword from Races of Wild was called.))
Abilities:
Stand Still (Moving creatures hit by this creature's attack of opportunity stop moving and skip the rest of that turn)
Unnatural Grace (Allies ignore cover from this creature and get no penalty for shooting into melee if this creature is adjacent to the target) (Bad wording, but I couldnt think of a better one)
Here we have a perfect blocker for archers and spellcasters. With a good speed it can easily base enemies, it does reasonable damage with a rarely seen element type. After it bases an opposing melee unit, it will be a pain to get rid of it. With the high attack bonus, moving past will quite risky. Unless you have a really high AC, you pretty much have to beat it down before you can move on.
It looks a bit better than a Duergar Champ, but it lacks the conceal, so I'd say cost is around 35-40.
This miniature would fill both the need for an archery blocker and a mid-cost beater while still having the CG flavor of speed and grace.
Looks-wise it would be a "heavily" armored male elf with a shield, silvery armor and a large sword. After all we have enough Leather Armor + Bow/Two weapons elfs around. [)] | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 4:49 AM |
| I'd like to see if the designers can carve out the 20-25 pt niche for competitive CG "hitters." The Xendrik Champ is one such mini. But I can see them doing an Invisible Blade. For instance, from the Complete Warrior (but scaled down in level):
Invisible Blade
Cost 26
lvl 9 (6+3)
AC 17
Spd 8
HP 50
Melee +14/+9 (5 magic)
Ranged + 13, range 6 (5 magic)
Mobility
Sneak Attack +20
Improved Feint [] (Replaces move; target figure is considered flanked for your next melee attack)
I'd play that for around 25 points.
Perhaps we can then look forward to a day when the Moon Elf Fighter and 5-6 25-ish point figures can just wreak havoc on the battlefield.
I had another idea for a mid-20s cost "beater" but can't remember. Maybe it will come to me tomorrow. | |
Champion of Neogi
Completed Trades/Transactions: sttmxn, Krush, jgsugden, Ayrychx2, Venport, Tysac
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 4:58 AM |
| Two things would do "it" for CG.
1) A commander that granted Sidestep (Psisteph's idea). This would bring back the HEBI and give most ranged minis a 2nd life. It would also breath new vigor into the FB, Rask and all the sneak attackers that don't get this already.
2) A commander that granted Spring Attack. This would make the already intriguing Longstrider a tourny viable peice make the Med Air Elemental more than just a nuisance and make the Xen'Drik a viable threat through a whole match. This would give the FB a new, and terrifying, operation. It would make the 1/2 Giant PW viable (and who doesn't want to use him) and put some oomph into all the single attack minis that this faction has left in the bottom of the bucket.
Both are commanders. So like theNameless said all our old figures won't be obsolete.
Both CFXs are IN FLAVOR for the faction, i.e. movement effects that require "finesse" to use.
Neither is more powerful than say a Dragon Totem Hero or Brass Samurai. Especially if they are costed about the same.
I do like the idea of a Shifter Dmg. booster.
I still want a CFX for CG that reads like the Red Wizard. (this won't fix the faction though) | |
Two trades completed!! (Krush,Hides From Hurricanes)
Champion of the Aaracokra
Herald Of Snig Goblin King | |
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Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 5:52 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Feathers
I'd like to see if the designers can carve out the 20-25 pt niche for competitive CG "hitters." The Xendrik Champ is one such mini.
And the Half-Ogre Barbarian is a second one. IMO, those two fill the niche pretty well at the moment. | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 1:04 PM |
| My take on a piece in this range (say 30 ish)
CG Cavalry (Valenar horsemen, or some such thing).
Start with the MDP, (which can be recruited to CG anyway)
1. Drow becomes elf. Lizard becomes Horse
2. Wallwalker goes away.
3. Speed up to 10.
4. Two attacks for +10/+5 (10+5energy)
5. Keep reach 2. Keep AC.
6. Keep mobile attack.
7. Add 5 hp and one level.
8. Price it at about 28.
OR Talenta Scout (Rogue/Ranger type)
1. Drow becomes Halfling. Lizard becomes dino.
2. Keep Wallwalker
3. Speed Stays at 8
4. Two attacks for +10/+5 (10 magic)
5. Reach Goes away.
6. Keep mobile attack. Keep AC, HP and level.
7. Add mobility.
8. Add Sneak Attack (+5).
9. Add construct foe (+2 to hit, +5 damage vs constructs)
9. Price to taste. I think around 30.
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Let it be. | |
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Helzapoppn
Warrior
258 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 1:59 PM |
| I like the Shifter Commander and the Valenar and Talenta cavalry ideas.
But then I'm an Eberron snob (but even I felt that four Warforged in one set was excessive). | |
Champion of Iconics & the Apparatus of Kwalish (Constructs with Drivers? Brilliant!)
Dungeons of Dread Called Shot: Yeah, right | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 4:10 PM |
| | Tried: I'd go for that Valenar Cavalry thing, but I love cavalry/mounted pieces in general. Another possibility is perhaps a "Nomad Archer", similar to the mobile ranged attackers others suggested earlier. A guy on a horse with a composite shortbow could pull this off pretty well; Speed 8 with Shot on the Run would do it, I bet. | |
- Irrationally Fanatical Champion of Pegasus-mounted cavalry
- Proud member of Team Low Tier Beasting: I play CG as my main faction!
- Garland, TX 2006 Qualifier Champion
My trading thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19725 | |
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 5:14 PM |
| I'd considered the archer thing.
As of this date, archers tend to suck, and mounted archers might not be an excuse. I had considered giving the figs ranged attacks, but these would really simply be "red herrings" - ie, abilities you would use that would actually lower the impact of the piece itself (which is, in my mind, supposed to be some sort of mid-level hitter.)
But that's only my opinion. I could be wrong. Again. | |
Let it be. | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 03/29/2006 6:09 AM |
| | The Halfling Dino rider is a sure thing somewhere down the road. We just don't know the stats yet. | |
Two trades completed!! (Krush,Hides From Hurricanes)
Champion of the Aaracokra
Herald Of Snig Goblin King | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 03/29/2006 6:40 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Low Key
What I wouldnt mind to see is a good blocker for archers, something that can hold the enemies put. I'd go like this;
Elven Skirmisher
Faction: CG
Cost: 35-40? points
Level: 8
Speed: 8 (Light armor + Boots of S&S)
Ac: 20 (High Dexterity + a good, magical light armor like Mithril Chainshirt + a large shield)
Hp: 65 (Needs to be durable enough, yet dont want HP weighing down the point cost)
Melee +14/+9 (10 magic + Electricity) (Assuming Elf with Dexterity 18, 8 levels of fighter, Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse with ...lets say +1 Shocking Elven Warblade (Or whatever that sword from Races of Wild was called.))
Abilities:
Stand Still (Moving creatures hit by this creature's attack of opportunity stop moving and skip the rest of that turn)
Unnatural Grace (Allies ignore cover from this creature and get no penalty for shooting into melee if this creature is adjacent to the target) (Bad wording, but I couldnt think of a better one)
I like this alot. A well balanced offering, But wouldn't the AC burn you cost wise? I like the Electricity added to the attack, that would be usefull but enough borderline units have immunity that it's not out of hand. Finally a real use for Stand Still [:D]. Unnatural Grace is a great way to de-nerf tha archers, the low (5) damage is enough of an impediment nowadays.
I'd play it at 36 points in a heartbeat.
I like Feather's Invisible Blade as well but would see it at more like 29 to 33 points. Is sneak attack +20 on any thing else, short of Ulmo I cant think of any unit that is that damaging.
Improved Feint is a neat idea, this has deffinate potential as a finesse special ability.
These are a nice alternative to a new "beater". This faction has plenty of almost good units that could be beaterish. I'd rather see a commander that makes an old figure competitive than a CG version of a Duergar Champ (which would cost like 47 points in CG).
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Two trades completed!! (Krush,Hides From Hurricanes)
Champion of the Aaracokra
Herald Of Snig Goblin King | |
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