bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
    
 | | 03/27/2006 4:08 PM |
| This weekend I got to dust off an old Harbinger figure and give him a spin in a 200 pt constructed tournament. I had a sneaking suspicion that he had become much more valuable under the new rules and with all the new figures available for his faction.
Everyone agrees that the Tiefling Captain is an extremely efficient figure. For his point cost he offers a great commander rating, decent commander effect, and relative sturdiness for 21 pts. He has always outranked the other 21 point commanders from Harbinger because of his effectiveness. Nowadays LE has taken the top spot away from CE due to extremely cost effective hitters, great fodder, and powerful support choices. LE could benefit from the Tiefling if it was an available option.
When building a Quad hitter warband the other day, I picked out the 4 melee figures I wanted to include, then checked to see what commanders were available. Once you choose 2 Helmed horrors, an Efreeti, and a Duergar Champion you only have 35 points left to spend. In that you need a commander, an effective way to get tile points, and to be able to fill out to 8 activations. All the common choices (rakshasa, Blackguard, Dark Naga) were too much forcing me to search lower. Snig is a common option, but not very useful as a commander. That’s when I rediscovered the Half Orc Fighter. I had used him before in a Fire Giant band, and once in a red wizard +4 Cultist of the Dragon band, but never chose him for anything serious. He was too slow and too fragile for a format where if you lost your commander, you often lost the game as you lacked the maneuverability to fight effectively. Also there just never used to be anything good to use with him.
So I put together this design:
Half Orc Fighter
2 Helmed Horror
Efreeti
Duergar Champion
2 Timber Wolf
Goblin Skirmisher
I played it in a small 8 man Triad tournament to a 3-0 finish. I will defiantly be trying it at other events as well.
The main advantage of the Half Orc fighter is he lets you win on quality as well as quantity. He offers a decent enough commander rating with level 10 guys, and his commander effect is incredibly useful in the current format of mostly lawful bands. For a very efficient cost you get to dedicate more of your points for better fighters than what your opponent can play against you with their more expensive commanders. Also with the extra points you save, you can overcome one of the biggest weaknesses of Lawful Evil bands. They have a hard time getting and keeping assault points on the first turn of the game. With the Half Orc, I could fit the 4 fighters I wanted AND run two speed 10 tile grabbers. I didn’t have to run the often inefficient and sometimes worthless kobold miner that everyone seems to be fond of these days. The kobold (like the orc warrior) has lost a lot of stock switching from 12 activations to 8. Now you can often only fit 2-3 kobolds, which sometimes don’t earn you any tile points yet always end up costing you lost activations when they wander to a place you don’t want them at.
The strengths of his commander effect is due to the current metagame being played. +2 to attack means my 3 biggest hitters are frequently flanking for +20/+15 on attacks, and my efreeti can still get a +14/+9 when fighting from behind cover of attackers in front of it with melee reach. Basically I rarely miss against higher AC guys while my opponents still have trouble with my high AC.
The Half Orc Fighter has some weaknesses for sure. Speed 4 is pretty bad. The Half Orc is very fragile, and his commander rating of 3 is slightly below the average of 4 that people play these days. Depending on the band, the advantages he brings can greatly outweigh these drawbacks. He can still reach the center of the board on turn 3, or combat if it takes place on turn 2. Often you can move him before your fighters on the first turn of engagement meaning he is where you need him to be for combat. His fragileness is taken care of in that your opponent has to worry about 4 highly maneuverable hitters before reaching him. Often its just not worth them trying to reach him to eliminate him. In my band, most of the time after the Duergar has made his morale save you can even charge the Half Orc in to combat, as the Efreeti stays clear of combat casting scorching rays and produce flames the first few turns until everyone else is heavily engaged. He should rarely take any damage unless you are losing the match.
I posted this to give the little guy his shot of fame. He’s been hiding in the bottom of the play box for so long. Give him a chance to shine for once. Also I wanted to complement the designers on bringing another old figure back into playability. They have done a great job with this lately. Rakshasas, Black Guards, Umber Hulks, Young Masters and Human Commoners around the world thank you for this!
| |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
|
iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 03/27/2006 4:14 PM |
| | The half orc fighter has been always a good choice for LE hitters warbands in my opinion.With the helmets and chraals he empower your warband a lot.His cost is very low and as a second commander do a decent job.Everybody agreed that his commander effect is one of the most useful if your warband have chraals,helmets,duergars...Yes,a good one,indeed. | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
|
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 03/27/2006 4:19 PM |
| So, people who pay attention to things like the toolkit will notice that he is included. This means that bshugg is a slacker [:D]
...
but also absolutely right and insightful. I lobbied long and hard for the Half Orc Fighter to be included in the kit. It may not have much meaning to some folks, but who else would you have command your Beholder and dual Gauths? Where else do you get a +3 init and morale saves for those guys? And who else would you really have command your five Duergar Champs? (well, maybe the Underboss) ...
I will keep one around until another good option for under 25-points and commander 3/4 comes available for LE. | |
Triangle DDM Skirmish Group | My Email | 45-ish trades and counting | Stuff for Trade
* * * Show your brother some love and click here * * * | |
|
Sulaco
Underboss
1605 Posts
| | 03/27/2006 4:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by bshugg
Everyone agrees that the Tiefling Captain is an extremely efficient figure. For his point cost he offers a great commander rating, decent commander effect, and relative sturdiness for 21 pts. He has always outranked the other 21 point commanders from Harbinger because of his effectiveness. Nowadays LE has taken the top spot away from CE due to extremely cost effective hitters, great fodder, and powerful support choices. LE could benefit from the Tiefling if it was an available option.
Rather "Everyone agrees that the Tiefling Captain is an extremely efficient figure. For her point cost she offers a great commander rating, decent commander effect, and relative sturdiness for 21 pts. She has always outranked the other 21 point commanders from Harbinger because of her effectiveness." Tiefling Captain is female.
And if anyone is in need of a Half-Orc Fighter I have like 20 of the damned things. | |
Champion of the Gelatinous Cube. Nemesis of Gnomes and Dinosaurs.
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. ~ Terry Pratchett | |
|
frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 03/27/2006 5:06 PM |
| | He's roughly 60% of what Urthok gives you, for 60% of the cost... so hes kind of like the "discount bargain Urthok" or "poor mans Urthok". If you can't afford the point cost for Urthok, and you can live with CR 3 and +2 attack CFX, then you're good. He is perfect if all you are looking for is a commander to give your already decent hitters +2 to attack. If you are worried about survivability - for morale saves on low level creatures, or you need to tie a Chraal to him - then he may not be the right guy... but what he does for the points he costs is good. | |
Champion of Remorhaz, and the Mighty Goblin Frog Riders | |
|
Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 03/27/2006 5:22 PM |
| | I've always had a soft spot for the Half-Orc Fighter, because a) he was the commander in my Harbinger starter and b) he was the only one in that starter that could hurt the Hound Archon that was also in there. :P | |
"Why am I all sticky and naked? Did I miss something fun?"
-Vindicated champion of Tordek, Dwarf Champion | |
|
bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 03/27/2006 5:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
So, people who pay attention to things like the toolkit will notice that he is included. This means that bshugg is a slacker [:D]
You mean people actually read that for advice? Its about as useful as fortune cookie fortunes! [}:)]
Also he still doesn't work for beholder +2 gauth. Thats still awful. I'm presenting him for inclusion as being useful in a GOOD band.
| |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
|
Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 03/27/2006 5:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fry
I've always had a soft spot for the Half-Orc Fighter, because a) he was the commander in my Harbinger starter and b) he was the only one in that starter that could hurt the Hound Archon that was also in there. :P
He was my first commander as well. At some point I was quite convinced he must be broken, after all he does 10 damage! [:D] | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
|
EldritchSoul
Warrior
324 Posts
| | 03/27/2006 6:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sulaco
Rather "Everyone agrees that the Tiefling Captain is an extremely efficient figure. For her point cost she offers a great commander rating, decent commander effect, and relative sturdiness for 21 pts. She has always outranked the other 21 point commanders from Harbinger because of her effectiveness." Tiefling Captain is female.
And if anyone is in need of a Half-Orc Fighter I have like 20 of the damned things.
oh sulaco, when will you ever learn to actually contribute to a discussion? honestly, who gives a crap if the teifling is a he or she? the figure's effectiveness was what was commented on.
back to the topic on hand, the Half-Orc Fighter, I think that if we continue to see rising ACs and the prevalence of lawful factions, the melee attack boosting CFX's will probably all become more useful.
and sulaco, if you're passing out half-orc fighters, send some my way, i have several newer players who are always looking for more commander options. | |
Champion of Dracotaur- Vindicated!
T32 | |
|
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 03/27/2006 7:30 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by bshugg
quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
So, people who pay attention to things like the toolkit will notice that he is included. This means that bshugg is a slacker [:D]
You mean people actually read that for advice? Its about as useful as fortune cookie fortunes! [}:)]
Also he still doesn't work for beholder +2 gauth. Thats still awful. I'm presenting him for inclusion as being useful in a GOOD band.
Hee hee hee ...
Seriously though, that +3 is so much more useful than a +0 or +1. I'm surprised that more folks don't consider the HOF.
Would it be nice if it were as efficient as the Cleric of Yondalla, Cleric of Order, Drow Sgt or Tiefling? Sure, but it is solid enough. Does CG have a figure that fits the same mold? Closest would be the CoCL or IM and those are more points than you'd ordinarily like to spend... | |
Triangle DDM Skirmish Group | My Email | 45-ish trades and counting | Stuff for Trade
* * * Show your brother some love and click here * * * | |
|
nedleeds
Warrior
240 Posts
| | 03/27/2006 8:14 PM |
| | If the Wardrummer continues his rise to fame does anyone think the Skullsplitter will see the light of day ? 28 points for +6 to morale isn't too bad. He can keep up with Duergars with speed 6. The tyrannical part of his deal seems fine against CE where if you fail the MC you are going to lose anyway. | |
Champion of Zarak - Evil Half-Orc Assassin | |
|
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 03/27/2006 9:05 PM |
| | Well I'm considering him for one of my bands as well. I was thinking that he is a good LE band for low cost so you can get more hitters in a band. | |
Sean Banks
Champion of Elementals
Official Organizer
Gen Con 05 maxminis Event | Winterfantasy 06 maxminis Event | Gen Con 06 maxminis Event | Winterfantasy 07 Community Event | |
|
Lord_rock
Underboss
2023 Posts
Portland OR
| | 03/27/2006 11:22 PM |
| His first resurgance for me, though i didn't use him much even with harbinger, was as the back up commander for my hooked horror squad when they first came out...he was a good way to help boost thier att's to +16/+16 (and dark moon) or better depending on circumstances and could use him as back door gaurd until the raksasha ran out of spells...
if his commmander rating was one higher or if he had 10 more hp i think we would see him more often...too bad he payed way too much in harbinger for that 10 dmg...he could be a go to guy right now in the slot he fills...LE really needs a solid 20-30 commander 4ish option...snig is ok but a bit of a HARD SELL often...urthok fills his 34pts SUFICENTLY well...something that fills the mid point REALLY well is needed... | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
|
Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 4:14 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sulaco
And if anyone is in need of a Half-Orc Fighter I have like 20 of the damned things.
Right here baby, in my universe Harbinger figures are Mythological. I'll give Ya all the Orc Maulers Ya want. (Ok so thats if Ya want 3) [)] | |
Two trades completed!! (Krush,Hides From Hurricanes)
Champion of the Aaracokra
Herald Of Snig Goblin King | |
|
Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 03/28/2006 6:50 AM |
| | Actually, let me be the first to counter. I prefer the Hobgoblin Sergeant over the Half-Orc Fighter if you can spare the extra 2 points. If you really want the two speed 10 tile grabbers then obviously you can't spare 2 points in Bshugg's build and the Half-Orc Fighter is the best choice. But typically the Hobgoblin Sergeant is better. His stats are better all across the board and he adds Blindfight to the mix. His commander effect is the same or better unless you only have one attacker basing the opponent. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
|
The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
12477 Posts
The G Spot
| | 03/28/2006 7:22 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nedleeds
If the Wardrummer continues his rise to fame does anyone think the Skullsplitter will see the light of day ?
I certainly hope so. I have 24 of them. [:D] | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM | |
|
lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 7:57 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Actually, let me be the first to counter. I prefer the Hobgoblin Sergeant over the Half-Orc Fighter if you can spare the extra 2 points. If you really want the two speed 10 tile grabbers then obviously you can't spare 2 points in Bshugg's build and the Half-Orc Fighter is the best choice. But typically the Hobgoblin Sergeant is better. His stats are better all across the board and he adds Blindfight to the mix. His commander effect is the same or better unless you only have one attacker basing the opponent.
Chad,
I was looking closely at those two pieces yesterday, and I agree with you. By the time I got to your post, I was already planning on how I would state the case for the Hobgoblin Sergeant [:)]. If you are going to have 4+ hitters (and having lots of hitters is really the reason why you take a cheap commander), then the HS commander effect is actually better than the HOF. The difference is expecially notable against large titans like Maruts or War Trolls, where your Duergar Champs can be swinging at +18 or +19. Also, the HS is markedly robust than the HOF. An Orc Warrior is a credible threat to a HOF and two would be a big problem, while the HS can fight off fodder. An Orc Champ can take som AoOs and kill the HOF with one swing 80% of the time. After taking the hits to swing at the HS, he has only a 70% chance to hit and 65% chance to cause a route, for a total of about 45% (ignoring crits). That shift in odds will sometimes be enough to keep the HS unattacked and alive. Unless the 2 points are critical in some other respect, the Hobgoblin Sergeant seems like a better choice to me than the assuredly worthy Half Orc Fighter.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
|
Sean-Khan
Commander
2723 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 7:58 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Actually, let me be the first to counter. I prefer the Hobgoblin Sergeant over the Half-Orc Fighter if you can spare the extra 2 points. If you really want the two speed 10 tile grabbers then obviously you can't spare 2 points in Bshugg's build and the Half-Orc Fighter is the best choice. But typically the Hobgoblin Sergeant is better. His stats are better all across the board and he adds Blindfight to the mix. His commander effect is the same or better unless you only have one attacker basing the opponent.
I agree - I only consider HOF an option if I can't spare those two points. Depending on situation, even better option (for secondary commander) would be Mercenary sergeant. Again, 23 points, but also benefits of commander effects himself and with level 4 and 40hp is more survivable.
But sometimes you just can't spare those two points. | |
Vindicated AtG Called shot: 2nd Huge Red Dragon
My collected trade reference links
Star Wars tactical combat -project
My modelling/terrain pages
Suomen miniatyyrikeräilijät / Miniature collectors of Finland | |
|
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 10:16 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Conditional +something for 2 points more and still less than 35 HP to me isn't worth quite as much as the always-on +2 and death in the same single swing.
Maybe if I had two points to spare and I didn't want to upgrade a 3 pointer to an Azer, Timber Wolf or Blue.
Chris speaks my views on the Hobgoblin sgt. 1/3rd of the time he's going to have a weaker commander effect especially if your guys are spread out a bit, and he only can stand 5 more damage before forced to make a morale check. A morale check that he's probably isn't going to make anyways. Often those 2 points gets you a timberwolf or blue instead of a goblin skirmisher. Something that can have a real impact on the game earning you tile points or getting a lucky stun on a orc champ.
Where the Hobgoblin shines is when you have lots of little dorks that can add +1's to your big attackers and gang up on stuff. Something that doesn't really happen in 8 activation games with out using snig. Going that option eliminates your advantage of a cheap commander to fit in more quality attackers.
Playing a tight game you could probably often get the +3 on attacks (or higher) but lose some flexibilty in where you can place your guys and how you can use your fodder. That flexibility is very important as sometimes a properly placed goblin is what wins you the game. Because of this, I prefer the blanket +2 effect. It lets me place things exactly how I want to and still gain the benefit. Extra points for upgrades is a nice perk as well.
The Hobgoblin does increase in value under the new rules (except the 8 activation thing) and is a acceptable substitute if you don't have access to harbinger.
| |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
|
stephengroy
Underboss
1418 Posts
Tempe AZ Beeyotch
| | 03/28/2006 10:42 AM |
| | And the Half-Orc Fighter, like the Tiefling, is available in metal... | |
Waiting for Chainmail Equivalencies since 2005
| |
|
IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 2:02 PM |
| I think the 2 points we're talking about here are not tremendously important, at least not in all metagames, in the particular type of bands we're talking about here.
Consider, for example, the 5 duergar band:
duergar champ x5, hobgoblin sergeant
You have 12 points left, and only 2 activations. The one time I can really see making the swap is when you want to run a gravehound. Otherwise you can still get your two blues and/or timber wolves. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
|
Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 2:14 PM |
| I agree with the Half-orc Fighter. Ive used him.. he is very solid for the point cost.
Now.. onto more important matters - WTF!?!? 24 Skullspliters.. dude.. when I payed 2 dollars for a Phoelarch, Fenris told me I was sick and in need of help "spending good money on a PHOELARCH!!". 24 Skullspliters makes you.. seriously in need of medication | |
Minis... Serious Business
Completed Trades (18 ) | Pending Trades (0)
Ebay seller to Avoid –Fantasy_Quest_Dist
| |
|
D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 2:17 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by bshugg
He can still reach the center of the board on turn 3, or combat if it takes place on turn 2. Often you can move him before your fighters on the first turn of engagement meaning he is where you need him to be for combat.
BTW, that should be round, not turn.
http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17855 | |
-
Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
|
DinoBen
Sergeant
412 Posts
Based outta Games of Berkeley, CA
| | 03/28/2006 2:51 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ack
Now.. onto more important matters - WTF!?!? 24 Skullspliters.. dude.. when I payed 2 dollars for a Phoelarch, Fenris told me I was sick and in need of help "spending good money on a PHOELARCH!!". 24 Skullspliters makes you.. seriously in need of medication
Hey, lay off. You never know when you'll need a mob of angry lumberjacks for role-playing! [:D]
Of course, I'm the freak who picked up an auction for 10 Ambush Drakes cause I got them for about $1.50 each. In my defense I do use minis for role-playing, and Ambush Drakes are described as "pack hunters". They also have some pretty nasty game stats, even if they are horribly overpriced for skirmishing. My players are in for it cause they know they're gonna get hit with those drakes one day! | |
Champion of all things Athasian
"Don't sing it - Bring it!" | |
|
Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 6:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sulaco
I've been contributing to the DDM online community since before the game was even released, so I rally don't need a dressing down on "learning to contribute" thank you very much.
A good example of contribution to the DDM community is when one of the game's top players starts a great topic about using an often-overlooked figure in competitive play. He goes over his thought process for building the warband, why he included the Half-Orc, as well as the pros and cons of using it. Constructive discussion follows.
Responding to the post with something as trivial and off-topic as the gender of the Tiefling Captain doesn't contribute anything at all. So don't get huffy with EldritchSoul just because he called you on it. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
|
Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11768 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 03/28/2006 7:29 PM |
| | I always remembered that the Half-Orc Fighter offered decent stats for its cost of 21, but I thought the problem was always survivability. It only has 20 HP, and no concealment (which the Tiefling Captain has). Perhaps, it's coming on stronger because losing a commander is no longer as painful as it used to be? I would still choose Snig for a cost of 20 to gain those all-important activations. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
|
Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 9:00 PM |
| While i understand bshugg's point here, I still ride with the Hobgoblin.
I can't see how one could possibly rationalize 1/2 orc is better, unless it was a particular build where you needed those points to shoe-horn a piece in. The way I see it, for those two points,you get:
Ώ] Same commander rating and speed.
ΐ] +10 hp - this is BIG against a lot of area effects that do 20 or 25 - it means if you save, no MC. I can't see belittling 50% more hp.
Α] 2 better AC (this is big in the days of hard-hitting fodder)
Β] Magic Damage,
Γ] blind fight and
Δ] a single use ranged attack.
Ε] +1 level higher (or, treat this as +1 on saves if you like, compared to the 1/2 orc, and, last but not least-
Ζ]lose "orc" type (pesky dwarven cavers are everywhere!) [)]
What do I lose? +2 to hit? (which I can sometimes regain anyway...)
I'll take that in LE, particularly if I run horrors or duergar (or even efreeti.)
| |
Let it be. | |
|
bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 10:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sulaco
I've been contributing to the DDM online community since before the game was even released, so I rally don't need a dressing down on "learning to contribute" thank you very much.
Sulaco, I have been in the DDM community as long as you have. To put it as bluntly as you seem to enjoy doing. The majority of your posts do have the tone and content that Eldritch is calling you out on.
Mods, could you please do some post trimming in this thread? | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
|
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |