memphisto
Warrior
213 Posts
    
 | | 03/28/2006 10:40 AM |
| Before Wardrums was released, there was plenty of speculation about the Teleport Temple map. Some felt it was broken from the start. I'm curious to see if some people still think it's broken, or if opinions have changed about this map.
Does it show up at your local tourneys? Are people having a difficult time preparing warbands which can compete on this map? Even though I haven't played on it since the release, I still find myself prepared for the contingency that my warband might have to fight on it. If I don't think my band can hack it, then I scrap the build and move on to something else. This brings up another question: has the teleport map kept some of you from playing certain pieces/bands, simply because you don't believe in their viability on the Teleport Temple map?
Since the release tournament, I haven't seen it where I play, so I'm curious what others are finding. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
United States
| | 03/28/2006 10:53 AM |
| I'm not seeing very many players choosing it as their map of choice. I'm still seeing the Drow Outpost as the most commonly chosen map.
In 500-point play, I'm seeing a nice variety: lots of people like ToQP, lots like Hellspike, and I've seen more Field of Ruin than I personally prefer. But, I haven't seen much of the Teleport Temple here either.
My own guess is that it's not broken or I'd see it a lot more often.
That said, I keep practicing with it because it it's unpopular, it will be an advantage to me to be able to use it.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 10:58 AM |
| I see a lot of the better players here choosing it.
I also see lots of tournament reports with it being the map of choice.
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 11:05 AM |
| I think it is a very useful map with plenty of oppurtunities for leverage, but it is far from broken. It almost encourages a different style of play from many of the other maps, and I am looking forward to what other sorts of maps that WoTC is going to release that create similar shifts. I used it for a dual hill giant band this weekend, and in those games that I won map initiative I was able to outmanuver my opponents and avoid losing any major pieces.
I have done a similar thing to you in regards to warband building, and any band that I think would suffer greatly on the map (such as Marut/Couatl/Bodyguard and most of my Aspect of Moradin ideas) is removed from my list of potential warbands.
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I am not gone. | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1366 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 11:05 AM |
| | Locally, I'm not seeing it, but on Vassal and in tourney reports, it's showing up consistently. I don't think it's broken. It favors speedy warbands that don't need to stay together for synergy. | | | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 03/28/2006 11:18 AM |
| It shows up fairly often at our local tournaments, seeming to be the map of choice for a player or two. That being said on any given night there's a wide variety of maps being used.
Personaly I haven't started to alter my warband choices because of the map, I try to build warbands that will be competative on any map.
It's a fun map to play on, usually making for some quick action paced skirmishes once players are familiar with the rules. | | | |
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2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 11:18 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
I have done a similar thing to you in regards to warband building, and any band that I think would suffer greatly on the map (such as Marut/Couatl/Bodyguard and most of my Aspect of Moradin ideas) is removed from my list of potential warbands.
Why do you feel Aspect of Moradin is weak on Teleport Temple? | |
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NightMoor
Sergeant
448 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 11:22 AM |
| | Teleport Temple is very much a CE-hitter map. Orc Champs, Red Samurais, Eye of Gruumshes - they all loooooove that map, since their speed allows they to converge on any target from any angle. I wouldn't be surprised to see CE players bringing that map. I do understand why it hasn't been taken so often thus far - people are too scared and inexperienced with it. Once people start to get the hang of the map, expect it to be one of the main maps of choice for a fast CE band. | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1366 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 11:23 AM |
| | My guess is that it's a speed issue. | | | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 11:24 AM |
| Not so much that he is weak, just that he is less strong than I would like. You can't reach a teleporter in the first round unless you get the right side (which is in no way garaunteed). If you are building an anti-Hill Giant/CE build (something like Aspect of Moradin + 3 Justice Archons) its pretty easy to eliminate one of the Justice Archons before your opponent can get to use them. Similarly, if you time it right its possible to move in, eliminate one, and then fall back into a defensive position before your opponent has time to react. Also with a majority speed 6 warband, there are lots of locations that you won't be able to reach thanks to your low speed.
I don't think Iron Golem + Marut is even worth consideration on the map, because of the slow speed of the Iron Golem. I suppose there might be some other builds that work a bit better with the Aspect of Moradin, but I haven't found them or heard about them yet, so in the event that those emerge I reserve the right to change my stance. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
United States
| | 03/28/2006 11:29 AM |
| I keep wanting to try the GAS (Gith Monk + Young Master) bands on this map. The incredible speed is very nice.
I have noticed, though, that extending commander effects is a little harder on this map if you let yourself go crazy and start sending your pieces all over the place.
I was thinking of trying YMx2, GMx3 to counter this. But, I figure it's too mnay points wasted on commanders.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Avatar of the Tank
Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 03/28/2006 11:30 AM |
| | I dislike that 1 side is much closer to 3 teleporters (w/in 12) than the other side is. | |
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Helzapoppn
Warrior
258 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 11:30 AM |
| In Michigan I've seen the Teleport Temple used a lot.
I'm moving away from it, because it's very...fickle. I've been burned by it as often as I've been helped.
Worse than the teleporters themselves is the centrally-located exit. Anything with speed that routs is more likely to run off the board than on maps with exits off to one side. | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 11:49 AM |
| It is very good. Much better than it should be. It has too much of an impact on the actual game play for a competitive map. It polarizes the format into bands that are really good on the teleport map, and ones not so good on it. The only thing really keeping me from ranting about it is that its so fun to play on! That will tire quickly though if it gets overplayed too much.
The other thing I dislike about it is that its a competitive filter. It greatly widens the gap between good players and average players, and almost makes it unwinnable for beginner players against both other groups. Knowing how to abuse the teleporters greatly reduces the amount of luck in the game when there is a disparity in player skill. Winning games on occasion is what drives beginners into becoming competitive players. The teleport map adds another (huge) hurdle for them to master. More likely it will frustrate them and drive players away. I saw this happen many times over with some of the abilities in Mage Knight (magic lev, bound and charge) and I watched it drive players from the game. Anything that lets you break the fundemental rules of the game (figures only move X, can't move and full attack, etc) needs to be watched very closely for play balance. I think the teleporter map is pushed into the unbalanced side for breaking the basic rules of the game. Especially for something that costs you 0 points of your warband to utilize.
At my last event the only reason I didn't select it was because I wanted to test a new warband. Playing with that prominant map to game play would skew my results. I would win or lose games not on the strength of my band, but on who screwed up first on the teleporters.
I'm wondering if it would be better if they were unstable teleporters and only worked 50/50. That way you would still have an interesting effect but couldn't always depend on them for your strategy and build bands to abuse it. | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 12:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
I'm not seeing very many players choosing it as their map of choice. I'm still seeing the Drow Outpost as the most commonly chosen map.
Dave
I believe you didn't see the Kalamazoo guys play it last week as they didn't want to really deal with the headaches it brings for a casual/fun event. I know Josh and Jason both think very highly of it, and Elliot did play it. I choose the Outpost as a neutral "safe" option as I was more interested in my band's results on its own. | |
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Wish
Sergeant
399 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 12:04 PM |
| | I love it for casual play. It's a lot of fun zipping units all over the board. But for competitive play, I'm not really a fan. The first two rounds take about 40 minutes, with no attack rolls. Then somebody commits a piece to an attack, and a huge brawl results that drags in almost every piece on the board. Bleh. I think this would have been a fantastic map under the old rules with the Speed 2 rule. That would have made for some strategic battles. | | | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 12:22 PM |
| I've not played on it but I've looked it over and watched a few VASSAL matches and my impression is the same as bshugg, wish, etc.
- It is a skill-polarizing map. Whereas before I could count on winning games due to tile placement against less-skilled folks I could probably do the same w/ the Teleport Temple
- It does skew my warband choices considerably (speed 7 anyone?) toward more independent and non-commander-reliant choices with that quick rout path in the middle and the apparent tendency to get pulled out of cfx range quickly.
- It does seem to slow the game down during the first few rounds ... it hasn't yet reached Drider-like slowness ... yet. The need to compute distances from all destination teleporters for the key enemy units, your units, check LOS to commanders, etc. could develop into a problem.
- It does look like a heck of alot of fun. | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 12:27 PM |
| I have yet to run into a problem with people taking too long on the map. All the games have been right about the average rounds.
Also, I am all for things that reduce the luck and increase the skill needed in the game. Competitive tournaments aren't necessarily the right place for beginners to cut their teeth, in my opinion.
Maybe I'm different, but playing to get better and try and beat some of the players is why I continued to play, not because my dice got me one lucky win over a better player. | |
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nedleeds
Warrior
240 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 12:40 PM |
| | Seems to me that it's built for the Wardrummer. Without worry about keeping LOS for MC you can send out hordes of Champs/Sams/HGB from every angle. Even lone Timber Wolves can head out to snag VPs and have a prayer of making a MC. In addition it seems to hose the LG bands which are spoilers to the CE-beating. | |
Champion of Zarak - Evil Half-Orc Assassin | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 1:32 PM |
| The thing about the Teleport Temple is that it can be advantageous and a huge disadvantage at the same time. If your opponent is more able to take advantage of the manueverability than you are then it gives them a tactical edge. That fact alone makes it difficult to use and most players would rather use a map they can predict or know will be easier to control the game play against a wider variety of opponents and their warbands.
R~ | |
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DinoBen
Sergeant
412 Posts
Based outta Games of Berkeley, CA
| | 03/28/2006 1:39 PM |
| I've also been worried about the effect this map may have on noobs or even on veterans who don't have the time to skirmish daily (or even weekly [V]). As said before, like "learning" ideal tile placement, "learning" this map will often be the key to victory. This is unfortunate for players who really enjoy the game, but don't have the time to devote to learning the intracacies of each map and their metagame advantages and disadvantages.
Each map has their own learning curve, the Teleporter Temple's just seems that much higher. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
United States
| | 03/28/2006 3:08 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by bshugg
quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
I'm not seeing very many players choosing it as their map of choice. I'm still seeing the Drow Outpost as the most commonly chosen map.
Dave
I believe you didn't see the Kalamazoo guys play it last week as they didn't want to really deal with the headaches it brings for a casual/fun event. I know Josh and Jason both think very highly of it, and Elliot did play it. I choose the Outpost as a neutral "safe" option as I was more interested in my band's results on its own.
I actually wondered about that. Makes sense.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 03/28/2006 3:33 PM |
| The teleporter map is very fun to play on, but...
I am very disturbed as to the affect this map will have on serious tournaments. I agree with those that say this map gives the experienced player an advantage over the casual player. That is a problem for the tournament environment.
The bigger concern is the amount of time spent on the first few rounds. In a major tournament with high stakes on the line - I predict any matches using this map to be slowed down to a crawl. Both opponents will sit on the teleporters and try to out wait or out think the opponent. Neither will want to commit to making the first mistake. The game will be decided on who makes the first mistake and who doesn't, most likely. The game will go to time and be decided on points. Maybe its just me and my opinion but all the games I've played on this map (6 now) are getting slower and slower on the first two rounds. I can easily see in a one hour major tournament only getting 3 or 4 rounds in with this map. That is not good. Maybe time will tell and prove me wrong. I sure hope so because I would hate to lose players over something as trivial as a map. I'm not advocating a ban of the map but I wouldn't be surprised if it eventually happened. | |
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Prez
Skirmisher
10 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 3:48 PM |
| | it should be noted that doubtofbuddha clobbered me on the teleport temple- i think it, more than any other map i have seen, reflects a player's mastery of adapting their unique playstyle and strategy to a map. Because he prepared and figured out how to use the map to his advantage, I got creamed. | |
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DinoBen
Sergeant
412 Posts
Based outta Games of Berkeley, CA
| | 03/28/2006 6:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Prez
it should be noted that doubtofbuddha clobbered me on the teleport temple- i think it, more than any other map i have seen, reflects a player's mastery of adapting their unique playstyle and strategy to a map. Because he prepared and figured out how to use the map to his advantage, I got creamed.
Which again, is my worry. Those with time to spend on Vassal, etc. will have an exceptional advantage, with this map in particular. Not that there's anything wrong with the player whose practiced hardest winning the prize. Rather, a new player, or a player at their first tournament, won't know what hit them. That can spoil a players appetite for continued play. It's all part of the game I suppose, but I find it disconcerting that such an element exists in DDM. | |
Champion of all things Athasian
"Don't sing it - Bring it!" | |
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2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 6:33 PM |
| I agree that Teleport Temple gives an experienced player a big advantage over a newer player. But certainly no more of an advantage than the Mushroom Tangle tile did before the era of maps.
In fact TT has significantly less of an impact, since the new player has a shot at not even playing on it, thanks to the map initiative roll. Back when we were using tiles, a new player would have no way to avoid getting Tangled by an expert player.
My point is that we're moving toward a more level playing field, not less. | |
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Wish
Sergeant
399 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 6:53 PM |
| | I missed most of the tile era, but it took me all of about 3 games to figure out that getting boxed into my start tile with a tangle and spike stones cave really sucks. By the time the next tournament with tiles rolled around, I had thought through counter strategies and was prepared. It wasn't that hard to make sure I had multiple acceptable avenues off of my start tile. I won't claim any tile placement expertise, but the basics are pretty simple once you've seen how it works in competetive play. The teleporter map is a whole lot more complex than the mushroom tangle tile. You can't just sit down for a few minutes and figure it out. You can, however, figure out the rudiments in a couple games. I think it's worse than the tiles, as far as the learning curve is concerned, but I'm not sure it's so much worse as to warrant banning. The only way I think it will get banned is if experience shows that it dramatically slows down play at the qualifiers or championships. | | | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 7:00 PM |
| I'm by no means a great player, but so far, I've been good enough to capitalize on this map. Before going to the my first tourney after WarDrums, I sat down with the map, and...uh...well...played with myself. If I hadn't done that, I think I would have made many of the mistakes that I saw made by other players who were seeing it for the first time.
Basically, I set up and waited for my opponents to make mistakes. They would invariably send 1 creature through the teleporter, and then I'd block it, cutting his creature off and destroying his army piecemeal.
Once you learn this particular nuance, you can be successful on this map.
As far as speed, in my limited experience, it hasn't seriously slowed the game. | |
Rhane
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Janos M.
Underboss
1015 Posts
Hamburg / GErmany
| | 03/29/2006 2:56 AM |
| I agree with most of you and to answer the orginal question:
I think the Teleport Temple isn't broken, but it favors some players and warbands a lot.
I played on it and I have to say, the more I play on it the less time I need to know what to do, after my opponent used his 2x turns per phase. | |
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 03/29/2006 6:31 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
quote:
Originally posted by WishThe only way I think it will get banned is if experience shows that it dramatically slows down play at the qualifiers or championships.
Precisely. This was ultimately the reason behind the Drider ban ... didn't fit thematically, it was too efficient, whatever. In reality games crawled to a halt as you worked through the different permutations. Teleporters could do this; time will tell.
There are 2 partial solutions to that.
Common tactic on the teleport map is to sit on all nearby teleport squares. Which lets your other units teleport out. But prevents your opponent teleporting in. And virtually eliminates your opponents need to think about teleports, they can't do any that are usefull.
The other is, play sacred watchers. Between the combination of flying through walls & teleporters. The answer to the question "what squares can they reach ?" Is usually "All of them".
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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XenoZephyr
Underboss
1083 Posts
| | 03/29/2006 9:17 AM |
| | Slightly off-topic but something to think about is that we have 3 more maps coming out next month. Its possible that one of these maps could very well disfavor warbands that are favored on Teleport Temple. That would swing everything back around. | |
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memphisto
Warrior
213 Posts
| | 03/29/2006 9:46 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XenoZephyr
Slightly off-topic but something to think about is that we have 3 more maps coming out next month. Its possible that one of these maps could very well disfavor warbands that are favored on Teleport Temple. That would swing everything back around.
I don't think it's really off topic. Even though I didn't explicitly state it, part of my interest in starting this thread was to see how people are viewing this map in context with the past (tiles, drider, etc.), and what the future might have in store (forest, more teleporters, etc.). And, I do believe that in 6 months time there will be map(s) that put Teleport Temple into a vastly different perspective. I'm looking forward to that. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
United States
| | 03/29/2006 10:41 AM |
| One fair question, then, is, "Is the teleport temple map a good choice for warbands with an initiative of +6 or higher?"
Let's say (it might not be true) that Inspired Frenzy would be great on the Teleport Temple, but, with "only" a +4 to initiative, there's a fair chance you won't get to pick your map at a tournament. So, should you try to build a Ryld-commanded Frenzy band instead? Probably not--now you're getting the map, but it's no longer great for your band.
Let's say (it might not be true) that you're playing a Human Blackguard band that is great on the Teleport Temple. With a +6 initiative, you have a good chance of winning map, so you're happy with this arrangement.
I wonder if the best bands for the Teleport Temple, back when the designers designed this map and knew what pieces would be available at this time, have low commander ratings and so aren't as likely to get the map anyway.
Just a thought. What I mean is, the combination of map and band type could already be balanced based on the likelihood of the map being selected.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 03/29/2006 11:02 AM |
| I don't know that an Inspiring Marshall is required for Frenzieds on the Teleport map. It could still be useful, but may not as required.
I'd have to try it out and see what happens.
Even the +4 from the Marshall is equal to or greater then many of the warbands seeing play lately (+2 Drow Sgt, sometimes +0 Marut/Couatl, +4 Tiefling or +3 Tiefling (although usually sub-optimal)
I played on Teleport Temple all 3 games last night with my +2, as 1 player had it as his choice as well, and the other 2 had +0 and +3. | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1366 Posts
| | 03/29/2006 11:35 AM |
| Good point, Dave. It seems, so far, that folks are building solid bands that will also do well on the TT, as oppposed to designing solely for the TT.
As an aside, I've found the Frenzied Berserker to be terrible on the TT. | | | |
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XenoZephyr
Underboss
1083 Posts
| | 03/29/2006 11:55 AM |
| | Yes, that's a good point about having to win the Teleport map, but from looking at the tournament reports and such it seems that +4 Initiative is a pretty solid number. Shuluth comes in a 5, and a couple of bands have used the Half-Orc Paladin or a higher LG commander, but from what's currently being played only Ryld has a real better chance of winning init, and I don't even see him showing up that much lately either. | |
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 03/29/2006 12:40 PM |
| | It favors speed thats for sure, and I do look at how a band will do it on it qualify for me to play it. I don't think its broken yet, but I do think this discussion is good and needs to keep up at this level (polite etc) periodically. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 03/29/2006 1:58 PM |
| The difference of bonus to initiative is rarely so much that it can swing winning map init to one player that easily. If one player only has Snig and the other Ryld sure that's pretty extreme but it's as extreme as it gets really. Most games are nowhere like that and have a difference of maybe 3-4 at most. So it's all about the roll anyway.
One thing I've noticed is Incorporeal and Burrowing creatures have an interesting advantage when manuevering around the Teleport Temple. Thankfully there's not that many that are seriously effective. Just something else to think about. Most incorporeal creatures can move and attack the opponent on their start area first turn. Burrowers can't but they can get to just about anywhere they want on the map.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Grey Dragon
Sneak
75 Posts
| | 03/29/2006 4:08 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
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The other is, play sacred watchers. Between the combination of flying through walls & teleporters. The answer to the question "what squares can they reach ?" Is usually "All of them".
I second the sentiment. Teleport Temple is probably the single most Incorporeal-friendly map in the game. How many other scenarios allow you to reach your opponent's Start Area on the first turn-- with a single move? Watchers own this map like nobody's busines. | |
"Life is short. Death is shorter."-- motto of the Halfling Assassin Squad | |
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