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Jesster
Sneak
94 Posts
    
 | | 03/29/2006 6:20 PM |
| One thing I haven't seen emphasized much is how difficult it is to take full advantage of the teleporters and yet still keep you figs under command. This makes this map favor bands that are good at taking advantage of out-of-command enemies.
As an example, I recently played on this map in a sealed league event against a friend of mine. At one point, he ran his fully healthy wartroll around a corner and out of command to try to pick off a fig I had camping on a teleporter. Normally, this wouldn't necessarily be a very bad move, but when you consider that I had a Warpriest of Moradin camping on another teleporter elsewhere, it turned out to be a big mistake. On my turn I popped in my warpriest, putting the troll under his command effect and fired a deific vengence at him. Now he only took 5 damage from the spell, but found himself making a morale save with no command bonus only a few steps away from the exit.
That was 5 damage to completely eliminate a wartroll.
I'm going to agree with those saying this map slows play. There are just so many possibilities both in the way you move your figs and the way your opponent moves, trying to account for them all and plan your strategy takes a lot of thought. This is most noticeable in the first couple rounds of the match.
-=The Jesster: Gatchaba Goose=- | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
United States
| | 03/29/2006 6:30 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
The difference of bonus to initiative is rarely so much that it can swing winning map init to one player that easily. If one player only has Snig and the other Ryld sure that's pretty extreme but it's as extreme as it gets really. Most games are nowhere like that and have a difference of maybe 3-4 at most. So it's all about the roll anyway.
I agree. At a tournament that goes 6 or 7 games though, if your init. mod. is only +3 and you end up facing a lot of +5 or higher init. mods., you're probably only going to win 2 or 3 times.quote:
One thing I've noticed is Incorporeal and Burrowing creatures have an interesting advantage when manuevering around the Teleport Temple. Thankfully there's not that many that are seriously effective. Just something else to think about. Most incorporeal creatures can move and attack the opponent on their start area first turn. Burrowers can't but they can get to just about anywhere they want on the map.
R~
I'm telling ya, my Sacred Watcher x5 plus Ulmo band is going to rock. [)]
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Kalrin
Sneak
90 Posts
| | 03/29/2006 9:17 PM |
| I'll start off by saying I'm not a good player, but here are my thoughts on the Teleport Temple.
I will practice and learn how to play well on it. This is because I like the concept, and I think I might just have a chance at being good on it. That said, once I am good on it, I'll stop using it so that I can be friendly to new players.
I'm actually torn though. It is possible when someone wins map initiative to choose the opponents map (and thus possibly not use the TT). I'm not sure if this would be insulting to the new player, or a nice gesture. I suppose I'd as the new player which they would prefer and state that it wouldn't be me going easy on them, just that it would be me trying to level the playing field due to the nature of the map.
Secondly, once I get good on this map I won't be a slow player. Part of this involves counting distances before I sit down at a table to play someone. I've always felt that measuring distances is part of preparing to play on your map, and generally I try to have my first turn pretty well scripted. So, when I learn this map, I'll memorize distances to help speed up my play, hone my instincts (so that I can make the right decision quickly). This should make me a fast player then, and help improve the quality of the game :). | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 03/29/2006 11:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
I'm telling ya, my Sacred Watcher x5 plus Ulmo band is going to rock. [)]
Dave
[/quote]
While not exactly right, I was thinking of something featuring these pieces on it with a Cleric of the Order. Pop that +3 on Ulmo, then the SoF and send him to town. If something happens and you mistakenly leave your Cleric exposed, Ulmo still has a solid save chance. It has construct issues still, though. | |
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zdrake
Warrior
279 Posts
Albany, CA (near Berkeley)
| | 03/29/2006 11:03 PM |
| My observations so far (I've only played twice on it and lost both times):
1. Yes, this map does require you to mentally re-adjust in a huge way.
2. Definitely favors bands that don't rely on commander effect synergy or spatial proximity.
3. "Camping" teleporters seems to be a standard opening move.
4. One setup area of the map has closer teleporters. This seems to me to be an advantage.
5. The standard tactic seems to be to try to cut off parts of your enemy warband, and then teleport in your hitters and smash the isolated enemy figures.
6. Some teleporters are "safer" in that they are not chargeable from other teleporters. Others are more vulnerable.
I'm wondering if this map might favor abilities that allow more than two activations per round (e.g. Moon Elf Fighter's tactics, Squad Activation), because you could quickly converge on an isolated enemy figure and cut off nearby teleporters. With only two activations per turn, you can usually either isolate or engage, but not both.
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 03/30/2006 7:23 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Jesster
One thing I haven't seen emphasized much is how difficult it is to take full advantage of the teleporters and yet still keep you figs under command. This makes this map favor bands that are good at taking advantage of out-of-command enemies.
As an example, I recently played on this map in a sealed league event against a friend of mine. At one point, he ran his fully healthy wartroll around a corner and out of command to try to pick off a fig I had camping on a teleporter. Normally, this wouldn't necessarily be a very bad move, but when you consider that I had a Warpriest of Moradin camping on another teleporter elsewhere, it turned out to be a big mistake.
Absolutely, Warpriest of Moradin rules on the teleport map. During the prrelease I had a hard time for the first 3 turns while the WPoM walked (speed:4) towards the nearest teleport square. But imemdiatly he reached it I routed an undamaged HGB.
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 9:22 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by zdrake
I'm wondering if this map might favor abilities that allow more than two activations per round (e.g. Moon Elf Fighter's tactics, Squad Activation), because you could quickly converge on an isolated enemy figure and cut off nearby teleporters. With only two activations per turn, you can usually either isolate or engage, but not both.
The trick w/ the Moon Elf Fighter is keeping folks w/in 6 for the commander effect. My impression is that the map doesn't help bands that rely on the commander effect very much ... at least not until the combat eventually clumps. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
United States
| | 03/30/2006 9:25 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
My impression is that the map doesn't help bands that rely on the commander effect very much ... at least not until the combat eventually clumps.
Speaking of which, any comments from the peanut gallery as to how Quad Helmed Horror has performed on this map (not that you'll get to choose it all that often)?
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
United States
| | 03/30/2006 9:47 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Well, given that Helmed Horrors survive only 3 hits from a HGB I'm not sure they are too happy on the HGBs favorite map.
Excellent point.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
| 2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 1:11 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Well, given that Helmed Horrors survive only 3 hits from a HGB I'm not sure they are too happy on the HGBs favorite map.
"Only" 3 hits? How many Tier-1 pieces survive more than 3 hits from a HGB?
To survive three hits from a HGB:
-- If you're Large and have DR, you need 95HP+
-- If you're Medium or smaller and have DR, or Large with no DR, you need 110HP+
-- If you're Medium or smaller with no DR, you need 125HP+
Take a look at the toolkits, and you'll see there are only a handful of units that fit these critera. I'm not saying Quad Horror is great vs HGB, I'm just saying you're setting the bar pretty high. | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 1:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Jesster
As an example, I recently played on this map in a sealed league event against a friend of mine. At one point, he ran his fully healthy wartroll around a corner and out of command to try to pick off a fig I had camping on a teleporter. Normally, this wouldn't necessarily be a very bad move, but when you consider that I had a Warpriest of Moradin camping on another teleporter elsewhere, it turned out to be a big mistake.On my turn I popped in my warpriest, putting the troll under his command.
That was 5 damage to completely eliminate a wartroll.
These kinds of mistakes shouldn't distort anyones views on the maps and how it effects being under command. Its just not going to happen against anyone who realizes how bad the Warpriest of Moradin's effect is for them.
Someone playing a tight game who understands the map will not have any problems keeping LOS. Its no worse than something like Fane of Lolth or Mithral Mines. | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 1:56 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Well, given that Helmed Horrors survive only 3 hits from a HGB I'm not sure they are too happy on the HGBs favorite map.
The HGB's should average about 2 hits (ballpark number) a turn on the horrors = 80 damage. 4 HH's should dish out 90-105. HH has 380 HP to chew through, Giants about 280 (or less if they route). Of course damage potential goes down as figures drop, but I would say the horrors would be pretty happy with the match up on any map but the dragon shrine. | |
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Jesster
Sneak
94 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 5:51 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by bshugg
These kinds of mistakes shouldn't distort anyones views on the maps and how it effects being under command. Its just not going to happen against anyone who realizes how bad the Warpriest of Moradin's effect is for them.
Someone playing a tight game who understands the map will not have any problems keeping LOS. Its no worse than something like Fane of Lolth or Mithral Mines.
I agree that a skilled and well-prepared player will not fall for such a tactic so easily. My point was that facing a piece like the WarPriest of Moradin on this map greatly reduces your tactical options, since you don't want to risk losing a key fig this way. Thus this map to some degree favors pieces that can take advantage of out of command figs.
Since the change to the speed 2/rushing rules, it is no longer always necessarily a good idea to make sure every creature is in command at all times. Spreading out your warband can in some situations give a great tactical advantage, and IMHO nowhere is this more true than on the teleporter map, as the more teleporters you control the more you limit your oponent's movement options. By running a piece like the warpriest, you make it very difficult for your opponent to claim control of more than a couple teleporters without risking losing them to the warpriests comander effect. Obviously, the warpriest is less of an issue if you have fearless creatures to work with, but there are other creatures that have ways to take advantage of out-of-command enemies that don't involve morale saves.
I just thought it was a factor worth mentioning.
-=The Jesster: Gatchaba Goose=- | |
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DinoBen
Sergeant
412 Posts
Based outta Games of Berkeley, CA
| | 03/30/2006 6:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
Absolutely, Warpriest of Moradin rules on the teleport map. During the prrelease I had a hard time for the first 3 turns while the WPoM walked (speed:4) towards the nearest teleport square. But imemdiatly he reached it I routed an undamaged HGB.
I won on the Teleport Temple map w/ a WoM as well, but suffered only moving 4(8) spaces. Is there a way anyone can recommend or think of to "speed up" the WoM besides playing with a Couatl that has brought in a Mephling to cast fly on him? | |
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Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 7:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Well, given that Helmed Horrors survive only 3 hits from a HGB I'm not sure they are too happy on the HGBs favorite map.
More correctly, Helmed Horrors only survive 2 hits from a HGB. The third hit destroys them. (Of course, HHs are one of the few cheap pieces that can't rout, can survive 2 hits from a HGB, and don't care about lucky crits.)
To survive 2 HGB hits (not crits) a creature needs:
Large size (or larger), DR (or similar), 65 hp.
Large size, 75 hp.
DR, 75 hp.
85 hp.
Off the top of my head, here are some creatures that meet those criteria: Chraal, Celestial Pegasus, Rikka, Warforged Barbarian, Dragonne, Wemic, Ogre Ravager, Justicator... | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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