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Foxman
Sergeant
417 Posts
    
Calgary, AB, Canada
 | | 03/28/2006 12:09 PM |
| As a two-titan warband it seems a fairly solid core but without to many points left over for foder/tech.
How does this build look? anything you would change?
Orc Warrior CE 3 x2
Timber Wolf ANY 5
Abyssal Maw CE 5 x2
Tiefling Captain CE 21 Cmdr 4
Hill Giant Barbarian CE 78 x2
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198 points/8 Activations
Pros/cons of Dual HGB? | |
It would be very unlikely for unlikely events not to occur.
- J. A. Paulos "Innumeracy" | |
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nedleeds
Warrior
240 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 12:24 PM |
| Sounds trite but I'd say find a way to fit the Wardrummer. Maybe drop the Tief -> Drow Sarge. Increase the number of Orc Warriors, I don't see how the Maws will ever get involved.
HGB x 2
Drow Sarge
Wardrummer
I guess that only leaves room for 3 Orcs :p 7 activations is no fun but the HGB could score VP on the first turn, on it's way to deliver the pain. | |
Champion of Zarak - Evil Half-Orc Assassin | |
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Sean-Khan
Commander
2723 Posts
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DinoBen
Sergeant
412 Posts
Based outta Games of Berkeley, CA
| | 03/28/2006 3:07 PM |
| I mentioned this briefly on another thread, but it seems to pertain to this thread more.
Anti-HGB = Warpriest of Moradin. Find an effective way to eliminate the Double HGB's commander via Sacred Watchers, Rikka, Gith Monk, etc. Then, even with a WarDrummer the HGB's are having to make a morale save every time they are damaged! You don't have to kill them, you just have to make them run away, and with speed 10 it won't be too difficult to get them off the map.
Thoughts? | |
Champion of all things Athasian
"Don't sing it - Bring it!" | |
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Temperance
Sergeant
522 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 3:13 PM |
| | My thoughts exactly, DinoBen. I'd throw in the Dire Wolf as a possibility. You're essentially throwing the commander assassination pieces to their doom, so might as well do it with a cheaper piece like the speed 10 Dire Wolf. Sacred Watchers are good, tho'. | |
Champion of the common Flying Monkey (Fez optional)
Peter Lee on the WotC board
BAD WOLF
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 3:24 PM |
| While a Warpriest of Moradin my be a good foil for a dual HGB band, that doesnt help you much. I mean unless you know for sure they are running a HGB band, he wont do you much good, in my opinion. So many fearless peices in the metagame kind of nerf his ability to do much. Also there's quite a few commanders that arent easy to take down, Human Blackguard, Orog, etc.
While its fine to point out a counter to a certain band, most of the time this will mean nothing. A lot of the counters that ppl use just arent very viable when taking on many other bands. And in this way, I find them useless. Are you going to go to a tournament, etc with a band thats made to do well against one kind?
Now maybe other ppl feel the Warpriest of Moradin is a good peice against other bands, but in my mind I dont think so. He costs way too many points without a great ability to do much in my opinion. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 3:28 PM |
| You can play the Warpriest..and then PRAY that no one brings Helmed Horrors, Marut, Aspect of Moradin or any other number of the fearless and/or non-squishy commander, but it won't be that effective.
Basically, with a Warpriest band, unless you face the HGB's in round 1, you will be in trouble. They are a lot less likely to lose with a good player piloting them, then a Warpriest band is. Which means after round 1, they are playing the 1-0 crowd, while the warpriest band is facing off with the 0-1ers. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
United States
| | 03/28/2006 4:41 PM |
| I think a weakness of a dual HGB band is other CE bands. Consider a fairly standard CE Quad from the good old days: Eye of Gruumsh, Red Samurai, Orc Champion and Ogre Ravager. If all of them manage to base one HGB and get in one successful attack, they do a total of 115 points (with a smite). Now it's true that basing a HBG can be a risky proposition for any of these pieces, but, in the next round, any two of these four can take out the HGB, so, if he cannot drop two of them, he's in trouble.
The second HBG might live through this, but, he might not--it's going to depend upon who wins initiative. And, if the Quad band wins, any one of these four pieces can finish off the HGB in two hits. The remaining three can probably take one move and get to the other HGB to put serious hurt on him too.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 4:46 PM |
| | The only problem with that, V., is that on the round of engagement you are going to lose one of those hitters. The Hill Giant Barbarians have the speed, accuracy, and general attack bonus required to move in and eliminate either the Red Samurai or the Orc Champion. Also if you are running those four you will have to give up either the Orc Wardrummer or the Tiefling Captain, and thus deal with the usual problems with morale saves or initiative ratings. The Ogre Ravager isn't very efficient against most LG or LE bands these days either. | |
I am not gone. | |
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John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 4:59 PM |
| DinoBen,
that is great idea! I also thought about the Warpriest but my mind stopped short when coming up with a good LG assassin.
Rikka would be perfect, but then we'd have to include the couatl. That's nearly half of a warband devoted to commanders.
Sacred Watchers may work. Just takes a couple of unlucky Incorporeal checks by the opponent. I can't believe I didn't think of the sacred watcher.
Gith Monks may work too. We only really need 20 damage. One of the current strongest dual HGB bands uses the drow sergeant. A good unavoidable strike that bypasses conceal makes the game look good. The problem would be that we still need the Giants to fail morale at +12 to saves. Oh well. Enough attacks, and it should be good. | |
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John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 5:06 PM |
| I completely agree with Doubt.
I think HGBs are being underestimated immensely. The power of HGBs rests in the fact that over 3/4s of the band lie in just two activations. How do you respond to that? (even if you are the last to activate).
How do you respond to two HGBs moving in at speed 10 and attacking with MR2? By charging with your two Helmed Horrors or Duergars for 30 damage vs the 80 damage they just did to you pre-engagement?
It's especially hard to protect your quad beaters before engagement if you're playing on Teleport Temple, where they can hit from all angles.
Even against bands supposedly built to stop them, they do rather well. The supposedly "bad matchups" are still near 50/50.
(Actually to be fair... piloted by players more skillful than myself, the odds against HGB using certain antiHGB bands are probably closer to 60/40. [)]
I tend to make dozens of mistakes when I get excited.)
~John | |
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Foxman
Sergeant
417 Posts
Calgary, AB, Canada
| | 03/28/2006 5:30 PM |
| The Warpriest of Moradin doesn't seem that great of an anti-HGB piece to me. He'll be a magnet for both HGB's to go after, and his effect only works IF the WoM is within 6 squares of any enemy AND that enemy doesnt have its own comander within 6 squares. If you see the WoM coming you should be able to plan that in your warband placement and stratgy...
Myself I don't own and orc wardrummer at the moment - but I do have 2 HGB and a tiefling captian - just trying to figure out the best way to use that... | |
It would be very unlikely for unlikely events not to occur.
- J. A. Paulos "Innumeracy" | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
United States
| | 03/28/2006 5:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
The only problem with that, V., is that on the round of engagement you are going to lose one of those hitters. The Hill Giant Barbarians have the speed, accuracy, and general attack bonus required to move in and eliminate either the Red Samurai or the Orc Champion.
I know, it's gonna come down to initiatives--which isn't what I prefer to do. I'm not advocating playing quad, I just think that a dual HGB could lose to a quad about as easily as it could win.quote:
Also if you are running those four you will have to give up either the Orc Wardrummer or the Tiefling Captain, and thus deal with the usual problems with morale saves or initiative ratings.
Agreed.quote:
The Ogre Ravager isn't very efficient against most LG or LE bands these days either.
Yep. It's saves are pretty good though, and, depending upon what else ends up out there, it's not a bad piece. Again, I'm not running anything like the old CE Quad (my son still loves to try to though). I think that it has lots of good matchups though.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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DinoBen
Sergeant
412 Posts
Based outta Games of Berkeley, CA
| | 03/28/2006 6:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by True_Blue
While a Warpriest of Moradin my be a good foil for a dual HGB band, that doesnt help you much. I mean unless you know for sure they are running a HGB band, he wont do you much good, in my opinion. So many fearless peices in the metagame kind of nerf his ability to do much. Also there's quite a few commanders that arent easy to take down, Human Blackguard, Orog, etc.
While its fine to point out a counter to a certain band, most of the time this will mean nothing. A lot of the counters that ppl use just arent very viable when taking on many other bands. And in this way, I find them useless. Are you going to go to a tournament, etc with a band thats made to do well against one kind?
Now maybe other ppl feel the Warpriest of Moradin is a good peice against other bands, but in my mind I dont think so. He costs way too many points without a great ability to do much in my opinion.
I have run effective Couatl / CoDA bands in the past that had Rikka and two Justice Archons. It would not be difficult to alter that band to a Couatl / WoM warband with Rikka, a Justice Archon and a Githzerai Monk filled out with Sacred Watcher / Warforged Scout tech. Though it may not fair as well against Fearless Titan bands, I feel this band or something like it would hold up well to a number of other tournament worthy bands.
The Moradin's War Cry is an extremely useful commander effect, but it isn't the only reason to include the WoM. Commander Rating 6 and Close Wounds are both very useful as is a +1 to AC and Saves for the whole warband. You would have to pilot this warband well to keep the HGB's off your WoM before you gacked his Commander, but well piloted on the right map (which you are likely to have with your high Commander Rating) and you should be competitive vs. all challengers, especially dual HGB. | |
Champion of all things Athasian
"Don't sing it - Bring it!" | |
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frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 6:32 PM |
| With speed 10, reach 2, and massive damage output, the HGB can reap huge profits off of the slightest mistake an opponent makes. This is only magnified if the fight occurs on the Teleport Shrine, due to the increased mobility and options it provides.
IMO, dual HGB bands are very anti-CE. Weak commanders become much squishier, and harder to protect especially on the Teleport map. The main quad hitters can potentially route after one hit, and most are dead after two hits. They make take down one if the timing works out, but I think the second HGB has a definite advantage.
I ran this band at a tournament last weekend and placed first with a 4-0 record:
HGB x2
Tiefling Captain
Cursed Spirit
Gravehound
Map: Teleport Shrine
Link to my tournament report: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17717
Granted, the CG matchup was heavily in my favor. The other bands however, were good builds (somewhat experimental, the same as my build) with good pilots. I think another big factor in this bands success was the format - I think the triad format (assault with bounty especially) is perfect for this type of build. | |
Champion of Remorhaz, and the Mighty Goblin Frog Riders | |
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elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 03/28/2006 11:05 PM |
| Loyal earth elementals aren't bad assassins on the teleport temple. Even burrow four is enough to get almost anywhere they want to be.
quote:
Originally posted by John05
DinoBen,
that is great idea! I also thought about the Warpriest but my mind stopped short when coming up with a good LG assassin.
Rikka would be perfect, but then we'd have to include the couatl. That's nearly half of a warband devoted to commanders.
Sacred Watchers may work. Just takes a couple of unlucky Incorporeal checks by the opponent. I can't believe I didn't think of the sacred watcher.
Gith Monks may work too. We only really need 20 damage. One of the current strongest dual HGB bands uses the drow sergeant. A good unavoidable strike that bypasses conceal makes the game look good. The problem would be that we still need the Giants to fail morale at +12 to saves. Oh well. Enough attacks, and it should be good.
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Janos M.
Underboss
1015 Posts
Hamburg / GErmany
| | 03/29/2006 2:38 AM |
| | As some one mentioned the HGB needs the Wardrummer so you better include one... | |
My Haves and wants:
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Janos_M.
Champion of Elan Psions
Proud Owner of the "Aura of cursed dice" | |
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