Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
    
United States
 | | 03/30/2006 9:52 AM |
| The subject says it all. For those acronymically challenged, here's my question spelled out.
Band 1 (GAS)
Young Master
Couatl
Gith Monk x3
Filler
Band 2 (HGBx2)
HGB x2
Commander
Wardrummer
Filler
Can Band 1 reliably beat Band 2? If not, can Band 1, w/o the Couatl and with another Gith Monk, reliably beat Band 2?
Even four criticals on a HGB won't kill it. Two won't even make it make a morale save. After the criticals are all used up, it's a matter of the Monks hitting the Giants more often, but the Giants hitting the Monks (a LOT) harder.
My own guess is that the HGBx2 band has the advantage.
Dave | |
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elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 10:12 AM |
| 1. I think band 3:
Young Master
CoDA
Gith Monk x3
Filler
actually has better odds against dual HGBs. Since the HGBs will morale check the monks on every hit, you want something more than commander 3 to keep them on the table--especially with the possibility of intimidating drumbeat.
As for the actual, odds, I'm not sure. Hill giant bands depend not only on the giants staying on the table but also depend upon the giants remaining productive. Even with the resistance drumbeat, the hill giants still need to roll a 6 in order to save against the stun. That's good odds for one stun, but when you're talking three stuns and a morale save in a last activation/first activation situation, the odds are something like 58% that the giant will be stunned and close to 70% that the giant will either be stunned or routing. Then if the other giant misses in the engagement round, things are not looking good for the giants at all. On the other hand, the giant still has fairly good odds of making all of those saves or at least making the ones that would take him off the board. And if the giants make their saves, things don't look good for the monks. | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 10:40 AM |
| This is one of those matchups that could go either way. It really depends on the Giants' Morale and Stun saves, and how often they can hit the AC 25 of the monks. I think the 4 monk variety has a much better chance than the 3 monks...adding the Lanter Bearer effectively gives them AC 27 vs. the Giants.
I'd say that the giants have the edge vs. 3 monks, but 4 monks have the edge vs. the giants. | |
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LeClaire
Warrior
225 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 11:19 AM |
| | But droping the Couatl or CoDA for another Gith is just putting more of your eggs in one basket. What happens when that band goes up against a Marut or HH heavy band? You usually need to use your Stunning Attacks against the constructs just to get the extra damage via YM. Sure you've used some going after the support staff, but those constructs aren't going away any time soon unless you beat them to dust. That fourth monk costs you virtually every bit of your wiggle room, point-wise. | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 11:25 AM |
| Well remember that a dual HGB band with a commander and wardrummer is going to come out to be 196 pts right there. You have enough room for a 3 pt peice. If you take away a commander, you get a little bit more support, but now your morale saves are at +12. Thats still pretty up in there air right there. I hate trusting in the guys to make their saves with only a 60% chance.
I think on average you would have one Giant fail in a game, if you dont have both a commander and wardrummer. I'm not sure if its better to have both, or just go with the wardrummer. I'm not a fan of only having two hitters, no matter how hard they hit. But that sure is a lot of HP's you'd have to eat through, not so easy. | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 11:45 AM |
| HGB x2 - 156
Drow Sgt - 172
Orc Wardrummer - 191
Orc Warrior x3 - 200
7 acts, 200pts
HGB's morale saves at +14 under command. | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 1:12 PM |
| | wow I totally forgot about the Drow Sergaent. I guess it would work out like that. Still doesnt give you much more than the HGB, but anything is better than nothing. And the OW's would be hitting for 15 dmg, not bad. | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 1:33 PM |
| The orc warriors won't be hitting at all.
I think the HGB has decent match ups against 3 gith bands, but a good 4 gith band will mangle them. The extra commander rating or couatl doesn't add anything to the match up and weakens your offense overall.
The version I run:
YM
4 Gith monk
Aramil
2 fodder
Will either have a close game, or a slaughterfest against the giants. All based on if the giants make thier stun saves. If they fail 1 it should be close, if they fail more than 1 it will certainly be a loss. The Giants still only have a 50/50 shot to hit the monks on their best attack. It doesn't matter if they route after one hit, they still should only be hitting one every other round. If they are stunned for any rounds it will be ugly for the giants. | |
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SneakyJoeKDB
Sergeant
593 Posts
Utah
| | 03/30/2006 1:47 PM |
| | Which band would consitently win? I would have to say neither. Both bands can win depending upon how the dice are rolled. The monks have high ac can they be hit? Eventually. on the other hand can the monks stun attacks neuter the giants? Eventually, Because odds of the stuns are more unlikely and odds of the giants hitting are unlikely, I think this matchup comes down to who has the lucky dice. | |
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Draxle
Sneak
127 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 1:53 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by bshugg
The orc warriors won't be hitting at all.
I think the HGB has decent match ups against 3 gith bands, but a good 4 gith band will mangle them. The extra commander rating or couatl doesn't add anything to the match up and weakens your offense overall.
The version I run:
YM
4 Gith monk
Aramil
2 fodder
Will either have a close game, or a slaughterfest against the giants. All based on if the giants make thier stun saves. If they fail 1 it should be close, if they fail more than 1 it will certainly be a loss. The Giants still only have a 50/50 shot to hit the monks on their best attack. It doesn't matter if they route after one hit, they still should only be hitting one every other round. If they are stunned for any rounds it will be ugly for the giants.
And of course to counter that arguement, if the giants do hit on their first two attacks now it's the monks that have to make thier morale saves. They still have a 25% chance to route, and the second hit always kills. It's going to come down to the player running the HGB's rolls every time. Bad rolls on stun saves, monks have a chance. Good rolls on tohits/saves and monks are slaughtered. Also this type of game has no tactics other then the basics. As the Monk player you don't want/can't afford to go after the drummer or commander as that would reduce your attacking force to 2 or 3 monks depending on which version your playing. Also if your YM gets taken down quickly, or even made to route you are even in worse shape as your morale is 50/50 and your going to be making at least 1 per round usually.. (again all depending on the save and tohit rolls of the HGB player.) The days of the Gith Monk's assassinating the commander and then running to waste time are gone. Now the weakness of the Gith Monks are really shown. Also, with AC21 and 55 hps.. the young master is a huge target and with the HPs of the HGB I'll take a couple of AOO's to take out the YM and neuter the Gith Monks a bit.
Drax | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 1:54 PM |
| I think saying a 4 Gith Monk warband will mangle a 2 HGB warband is a bit much. It really comes down to the morale and stun saves as was already stated. Being stunned a round or two may get them beat on solidly but even with the YM they need a lot of stunning attacks to do enough damage to kill even one HGB. Getting one to rout is a bit more viable. Still it's going to take some effort and a little luck that half your monks won't be routed in the first round of combat.
R~ | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 03/30/2006 2:13 PM |
| With 4 Gith Monks vs 2 HGB that's two stun saves per giant per round on the average. If a Giant is stunned after activating then he will be sitting there for almost two rounds worth of attacks doing nothing. I think Bshugg is correct. Maybe mangle is too strong of a word but a definite win most of the time.
It isn't very difficult for four speed 10 monks to block a large base figure that can't fly from reaching the commander in the rear. The Young Master should be safe for awhile. Not to mention giving an aoo to a monk offers him a free chance for an additional stun attack as it is now a different turn. | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 2:22 PM |
| It's a bit harder to both defend the Young Master and still have an offensive game, on the Teleport Temple though, which seems to be the map of choice for the HGBs
Be an interesting game, I think coming down to rolls. 1 crit for the HGB's changes the whole makeup of the game. A crit from a monk? Not so much. | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 03/30/2006 2:28 PM |
| ------
1 crit for the HGB's changes the whole makeup of the game. A crit from a monk? Not so much.
------
I should hope not, considering they get an auto crit for free. :P | |
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3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 2:29 PM |
| Well they both have the same speed. It's not unbelievable that the HGB with reach can sit 11 squares away from a Gith Monk and certainly possible it will get first strike more often than not. It's not foregone either way but if both HGBs get the first attack more often then two monks could be gone just as quickly. If they save vs. the stunning attack and win inititiave next round the game could be over or almost over if they the last two monks as well. The chances are always there but monks just die that much easier than the HGBs.
R~ | |
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BoloBaby
Sergeant
640 Posts
Fort Mill, SC
| | 03/30/2006 2:36 PM |
| Dump the Couatl for (get this! *smirk*) one Dwarf Artificer and (hehe) one Dwarf Wizard.
When your strategy is to swarm the big guy with Gith Monks, those Bigby's Slapping Hands can come in pretty darn handy, especially in the early game when you have stunning attacks left.
The Dwarf Artificer ups their AC, hopefully increasing survivability against the hard hitters and also provides some tech against Marut/HH/other constructs.
Just a thought. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 2:41 PM |
| Bringing a Tiefling instead of a Wardrummer helps in the 4x Gith matchup. Dagni calculated at our last tournament that full attacks with both giants (four attacks) gives about a 30% chance of an autokill on a monk if you are critting on a 19-20. Add to that the chance of at least one "regular" hit and you're not that bad off. And honestly I don't see the monk player going after the Tiefling with two HGB on the table.
Overall I do think the matchup still favors the monks, though.
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legend
Skirmisher
36 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 2:54 PM |
| gith monk x4
young master
cleric of moradin
6 points of filler
This team should destroy the HGBx2 bands. the cleric hands out +2 AC to 2 of the monks making them even harder to hit. you should be able to kill off one of the HGB in 2 rounds after that you should have 2-5 stuns left and no unavoidable strikes. So you are hopefully able to stun the HGB and pound on him for a round or 2.(you also have 2 range 6 stuns from the cleric of moradin) You might lose a monk or 2 but nothing all that serious. | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 3:11 PM |
| Keep in mind...if they see a Warpriest, they can choose to use your map instead of the teleporter.
Then, slow down enough to double move the Wardrummer up and then start up the countersong, denying A) the Warpriests Cfx and the Young Master's cfx. | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 3:23 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kgradert13
Keep in mind...if they see a Warpriest, they can choose to use your map instead of the teleporter.
Then, slow down enough to double move the Wardrummer up and then start up the countersong, denying A) the Warpriests Cfx and the Young Master's cfx.
He said Cleric of Moradin, not warpriest. | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 3:40 PM |
| My bad, so used to people claiming that the Warpriest is the answer to HGBs, I skimmed it
Although vs Monks, using the countersong may not be horrible anyway, just to save some damage and +s to hit. Have to try it out. | |
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 3:53 PM |
| | Normally a particular hill giant has a 45ish% chance to make the save vs. a barrage of 3 stunning attacks. Without the +4 to saves that percentage drops to 15%. I don't think using countersong is really an option, since I think making the stun saves is far too important to ignore in favor of reducing the damage. | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 4:35 PM |
| Personally I think the HGB's would do a lot better than what ppl are giving them credit for. I've never seen the two bands go at it, but I have a feeling that the HGB cut put some hurting on them. I really think its a good matchup though. I realize how much stuns can hurt the HGB's, but it ends up being all about the rolls. The HGB can morale check each Gith monk with one hit, and then its up to their rolls, etc. I'd love to see a few games played out, not just one.
It seems a lot of ppl come on here and show the results from one game and then seem to think thats how it will always go. Hopefully we'll see multiple instances of these bands facing eachother, and results from them. | |
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 4:37 PM |
| Yeah, its one of the match-ups I want to test. I just think that the math looks promising at least for the monks. :P
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 4:39 PM |
| | Even though the Giants will struggle to hit, and need 2 hits to drop a Gith, I'd say matchup favours them. +12 saves are pretty good, and even 3 YM powered autohits is *only* (haha) 90. Figure in that the Giants are as fast as the monks, and getting a Giant near a YM wouldn't be particularly tricky (especially on that irritating temple). 4 Giths allows sending one Gith off to splatter the drummer (or putting 120 and 4 saves on 1 giant), making the proposition more tempting. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 5:26 PM |
| I still say it's all about good rolls. Anything sub-average will send Giths routing or stun Giants. It really will depend on who gets off their attacks first and who hits and causes a problem (i.e.: stun or morale). Mathematically running the numbers isn't dependable in this case.
R~ | |
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DinoBen
Sergeant
412 Posts
Based outta Games of Berkeley, CA
| | 03/30/2006 5:53 PM |
| Warpriest of Moradin + GAS
Stun his commander (or kill it outright!).
Stun his Wardrummer (or not).
Start forcing Morale saves w/ every hit.
Buh-by HGBs.
As always, dice rolls may vary... ΖD] | |
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D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 03/30/2006 8:04 PM |
| Superficially, it seems like the HGBs would be more negatively affected by luck than the monks would, particularly when compared to the 4x monk warband.
One blown HGB save (morale or stun) incapacitates a larger portion of its warband than one blown Gith Monk save or one successful HGB attack. | |
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Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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BoloBaby
Sergeant
640 Posts
Fort Mill, SC
| | 03/30/2006 8:58 PM |
| I still think the Dwarf Wizard is a worthwhile addition to the band. Once the monks have swarmed a target, you greatly increase the chances of stunning or killing the giant off before it gets another chance to attack with Bigby's Slapping Hand.
In a 3 monk band, that could be 3 more early attacks and stun attempts. In a 4 monk band... well, that's even better.
Also, I like the fact that the HGBs - with Furious Spirit - will be coming to you. The controller will want them in the fight quickly, so you don't really have to worry about slower pieces (like Dorf Wizard) catching up. Those HGBs will be on a tear across the board or using the teleporter map to get to you quickly. So, in HGB vs GAS matchups, you don't need to worry about your slower units being left out of the fight.
Thoughts? | |
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D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 03/31/2006 12:33 AM |
| | I diagree about the relevance of Furious Spirit with respect to forcing HGBs to be aggressive. HGBs have 155 hit points. Several rounds of furious spirit damage is pretty irrelevant in many/most matchups. | |
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BoloBaby
Sergeant
640 Posts
Fort Mill, SC
| | 03/31/2006 12:50 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
I diagree about the relevance of Furious Spirit with respect to forcing HGBs to be aggressive. HGBs have 155 hit points. Several rounds of furious spirit damage is pretty irrelevant in many/most matchups.
Yeah, on second thought, you are probably right about that. Furious Spirit is probably only more relevant on something like the Dreagloth.
Although I do see some rookies sweating the Furious Spirit damage, so it could still factor.
Furthermore, I've noticed several HGB bands are choosing the Teleporter map. Again, that is probably to overcome Furious Spirit damage.
Ultimately, it pays to make the HGBs come to you. Why rush across the battlefield to engage? (Victory points aside... 'cause they could waste some time chasing around your 10 move tile grabbers.) If they WANT to take 15 or 20 damage before engaging your Monks, I say great! A 10% self-inflicted reduction in hit points just means you are 20% closer to a morale save. :) | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 03/31/2006 1:21 AM |
| I choose the teleporter map because it forces your opponent to worry about which direction you are coming from. The furious spirit is very minor. It also allows for a full attack and then retreat to force things to come to you, if the situation doesn't look promising.
Or an attack, rout/kill something and then port and move to base something else.
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
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alepulp
Underboss
1538 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 03/31/2006 4:32 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
I diagree about the relevance of Furious Spirit with respect to forcing HGBs to be aggressive. HGBs have 155 hit points. Several rounds of furious spirit damage is pretty irrelevant in many/most matchups.
We were testing a build of Eye of Gruumsh x 3, Wardrummers x 2, Tiefling Captain, Hyena and Timber wolf vs a dual HGB band. The funny thing about the furious spirit is that at 155 HP one hit from each Eye will not cause an MC, nor will 6 hits kill it. However, one round of furious spirit will drop it to the magical 150 HPs where it will have to make an MC and, after a full round of attacks, it will die.
The Eye build is interesting in its own right also. | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 03/31/2006 10:13 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
The Giths only need average rolls. The HGBs need good rolls. Play the matchup 10 times, all else being equal, and I think GAS wins 7 or more. That's pretty much "mangling," yeah.
+14 vs AC25 = 11
I don't think a 50/50 shot of forcing a morale check each turn on thefirst attack is requiring "good" rolls. Sounds like an Avg roll to me.
Once again, I think it comes down to rolling. On the teleporter map, if the HGB player can go last then first, and roll "avg" he can potentially remove 2 Gith monks before they ever make it to combat.
I think with equal players, it's not a 70/30 split | |
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Thespian
Sergeant
442 Posts
Lethbridge, Alberta
| | 03/31/2006 11:19 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kgradert13
quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
The Giths only need average rolls. The HGBs need good rolls. Play the matchup 10 times, all else being equal, and I think GAS wins 7 or more. That's pretty much "mangling," yeah.
+14 vs AC25 = 11
I don't think a 50/50 shot of forcing a morale check each turn on thefirst attack is requiring "good" rolls. Sounds like an Avg roll to me.
Once again, I think it comes down to rolling. On the teleporter map, if the HGB player can go last then first, and roll "avg" he can potentially remove 2 Gith monks before they ever make it to combat.
I think with equal players, it's not a 70/30 split
I think that if there was ever a call for the artificer, this would be it....Dropping the roll needed to a 9 on a d 20 is HUGE. | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 03/31/2006 11:25 AM |
| @kgradert13
I have yet to see a HGBx2 band with a commander and a wardrummer hit 8 activations so even if they go last that is only one HGB acting at the end of the round, then two at the start of the next round. That isn't nearly as good as two HGB acts then two more HGB acts. | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 03/31/2006 12:04 PM |
| If you can get a HGB on a teleporter, it isn't as important that he go last in a round though. He can still get to most places on the map and make an attack with the first activation.
On that map, going first would be far more important. | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 03/31/2006 12:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Thespian
I think that if there was ever a call for the artificer, this would be it....Dropping the roll needed to a 9 on a d 20 is HUGE.
Like I said above, the 4 monk variety lets you add a Lanternbearer which effectively does the same thing (I know its not exactly the same). This is an alternative that still gives you max activations with 4 monks. | |
Rhane
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