iluvxtina
Underboss
1500 Posts
    
Spain
 | | 04/03/2006 12:46 PM |
| | -Last weekend we have a little tournament and I must admit that I had one wardrummer in my warband and a drider (here he,s not banned).But I have to admit I didnt expect to see that everybody that had a CE warband had one.Everyone had a wardrummer in her warband!!everyone who play CE!!!Oh,man how boring.In your meeting point its the same?And I question myself:Wich will be the future of this creature? | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
|
Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 12:56 PM |
| | He is an automatic include, even moreso than the Inspiring Marshal in CG or the Couatl in LG. The only people who don't play him seem to be those who don't own a wardrummer or don't play Chaotic Evil. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
|
rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 12:58 PM |
| Basically, until there's a compelling reason not to include one, I'll have one in every CE warband that I field. If I can't include the Wardrummer, I'll scrap the concept. He's that good.
Also, when building my warbands, when I consider opponents, I'll assume that any CE warbands that I run across will have a +8 morale save (Tiefling and Wardrummer). | |
Rhane
"The focus is sharp in the city..."
Have/Want List
Reference thread
Avatar Thread
| |
|
rondom
Skirmisher
42 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 1:10 PM |
| Everyone seems to think he's great. Which is rather surprising, since just a little maths shows he's probably not cost effective.
He may make a CE warband more reliable, but he doesn't make it (much) better - not by his 19 pts cost in general. So I'm surprised (and pleased) if I meet him. | |
Rondom
Remember - if you can use all your figures it's 'Full' - if not it's 'Restricted'. Anything that cycles figures out of use in a planned timetable is 'Planned Obsolesence'. Never accept your enemy's terms! | |
|
froffenhoffer
Sergeant
702 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 1:13 PM |
| how often do you see him used for countersong- when i play games I never see it move of its starting point, as the other two beats are used.
| |
Champion of Wildshaped druid in with natural spell!
Thus said froffenhoffer
The Official through the heart, and im to blame archer. | |
|
robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 1:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by rondom
Everyone seems to think he's great. Which is rather surprising, since just a little maths shows he's probably not cost effective.
He may make a CE warband more reliable, but he doesn't make it (much) better - not by his 19 pts cost in general. So I'm surprised (and pleased) if I meet him.
I think you need to play CE more often before you say he's not point effective. 19 points isn't a lot and yes it limits the overall beater forces but that's the idea. Seriously if it was any cheaper it'd be broken.
As it is I expected the Wardrummer to be one of the most used pieces in CE for a long time coming. It's just that strong a piece for the faction that needed the boost. Now if only CG gets something so it can remain playable.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
|
Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 1:54 PM |
| The Wardrummer is darn near an auto-include. If the ability to make CE beaters reliably stay on the board and pass all sorts of harmful saves isn't "cost effective" at 19 points, how's "Making LG no longer virtually Fearless, and making CG all but guaranteed to rout" sound for the cost? I'd field that if CG had it. Having Countersong as well is just a nice bonus. Fearless ensures this piece will stick around.
He's a powerful offense piece and defense piece, just not both at once. Getting rid of him as far as LG and CG are concerned requires an investment of at least 31 points. CG can send Rikka, Longstrider, or a Pegasus to do it, LG can send a Gith Monk. Either way, you're committing 31, 32, or 34 points to defeating 19 points; mathematically speaking you've handed the CE player an edge, but if you don't do this, you hand them a bigger advantage still. If only the Longstrider Ranger had taken Orc Foe; it'd be perfect for this situation.
Does he need to be banned? Probably not. Is he extremely frustrating to keep running into as CG, even with a counter employed? Yes.
Simply put, he's CE's Couatl. You're going to see him in a vast majority of tournament-level CE bands for a while. | |
- Irrationally Fanatical Champion of Pegasus-mounted cavalry
- Proud member of Team Low Tier Beasting: I play CG as my main faction!
- Garland, TX 2006 Qualifier Champion
My trading thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19725 | |
|
Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 1:57 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
quote:
Originally posted by rondom
Everyone seems to think he's great. Which is rather surprising, since just a little maths shows he's probably not cost effective.
He may make a CE warband more reliable, but he doesn't make it (much) better - not by his 19 pts cost in general. So I'm surprised (and pleased) if I meet him.
I think you need to play CE more often before you say he's not point effective. 19 points isn't a lot and yes it limits the overall beater forces but that's the idea. Seriously if it was any cheaper it'd be broken.
As it is I expected the Wardrummer to be one of the most used pieces in CE for a long time coming. It's just that strong a piece for the faction that needed the boost. Now if only CG gets something so it can remain playable.
R~
Seconded
19 points is *very* cheap. It's ridiculously good for it's cost, and it's hard to think of a CE warband that couldn't significantly benefit from one. Yes and even if that means dropping or downgrading a hitter.
CE's problem was always that it had rubbish commander ratings. The Tiefling was so dreadfully overused, because your other options at the time included using a beater/commander (Gruumsh/Slaad) using a expensive Commander 2/3 piece, or paying a lot of points for the way-too-squishy DCOL. Now you can run an Eye of Gruumsh or a Drow Sergant (or whatever) as your prime omamnder, and not have to worry in the slightest about low commander ratings. If the Drummer was just +4 mc it would still be very very good, but the fact that it increaces *all* saves by +4 helps overcome the traditional achilles heel of the CE faction. What is the CE achilles heel now? I can't think of one.
In my mind it might even be broken now. It's better than couatl-good, and if I had a penny for every warband concept I've scotched/altered *just* because of the couatl.. and with the Drummer you're getting it for 19 points instead of 40 odd. | |
| |
|
Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 2:19 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Pegasus Knight
Simply put, he's CE's Couatl. You're going to see him in a vast majority of tournament-level CE bands for a while.
Honestly, most of my LG warbands lately haven't been including the Couatl. While the Couatl is a nice piece, there are plenty of other options open for LG at this time. | |
I am not gone. | |
|
rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 2:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Honestly, most of my LG warbands lately haven't been including the Couatl. While the Couatl is a nice piece, there are plenty of other options open for LG at this time.
Wow, that's weird. There's some weird font problem with my browser. It looks like Jesse described the Couatl as "nice" and said there are other options. I must have a virus or something. [)] | |
Rhane
"The focus is sharp in the city..."
Have/Want List
Reference thread
Avatar Thread
| |
|
orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 3:06 PM |
| | I'm now officially converted to the LG Justice Archon cause. | |
My Trading Thread | |
|
Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 3:51 PM |
| quote:
Everyone seems to think he's great. Which is rather surprising, since just a little maths shows he's probably not cost effective.
He may make a CE warband more reliable, but he doesn't make it (much) better - not by his 19 pts cost in general. So I'm surprised (and pleased) if I meet him.
you sir.. I believe you are smoking crack cocaine on a regular basis!!
yes, thats right! I said it.
The Wardrummer is incredibly efficient. I really like the intimidating beat after Ive used the resistance beat to make my BW save and MC.. switch over to intimidating and shazzam, you run away from me! and that is as good as a kill alot of times. | |
Minis... Serious Business
Completed Trades (18 ) | Pending Trades (0)
Ebay seller to Avoid –Fantasy_Quest_Dist
| |
|
millygoat
Warrior
297 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 4:25 PM |
| Yeah, wardrummer is crazy nice. Sure, you sacrifice some offense, but he just adds such a level of flexiblity to the band. Facing enemy spells/abilities on the approach, +4 to all your saves can be huge. +4 to your morale can bring a risky proposisition into a much happier range.
On the offensive side, if you can manage to ice the enemy commander, switching to -4 morale beat is huge. A failed morale at that point is as good as a kill, and CE has always been quite the faction for commander assasination with it's high speed heavy hitters.
Can I see a CE band without a drummer, yeah, pure offense is always an option. However, I for one think most of the time giving up a few points of direct offense for a bit of tech can be a marvelous thing, and it's hard to imagine a more flexible better nugget of tech than the wardrummer.
| |
Jason Kean
Champion of the Entropic Reaper
Strong Advocate of the Lich Necromancer (Viva Lichdom!)
Winter Fantasy Vintage Winner (go go umber-hulk pull) | |
|
Herald of Winter
Rav950
Warrior
340 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 4:35 PM |
| | What they *should* have done with the Wardrummer is make his effects susceptible to countersong. That would be sensible (given the nature of countersong as an ability) and fair. A lot of people are also a little stunned by the Wardrummer not needing to be within 6 squares for save effects to work. As a piece, it feels like it might not have been fully tested. Bannable? Possibly. Its not as ugly as a Drider, but it puts a little too much strength in the wrong places for CE. | |
Thanks for the memories. :) | |
|
Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 5:29 PM |
| I have two big problems with the Wardrummer.
First, there is NO way of efficiently countering it. It can definitely be killed. But you have to devote a heavy hitter to it for at least two rounds of attacks to get rid of it.
Second, CE now has no real weaknesses. Balduran did some research last year into CE's saves and mostly found it to be a myth. Even before the Wardrummer CE had better saves than CG. Now it is almost as good as LE or LG. It has excellent attack bonuses, damage, speed, and the high hitpoints are better than AC. The only thing CE doesn't have is ranged attacks, which are essentially useless now anyway. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
|
Markdragon
Sneak
143 Posts
| | 04/03/2006 6:31 PM |
| The rule change that really helps the wardrummer is the cut to 8 figures. Since you are replacing 5 fodder (OWs most likely) with him you are only paying 4 more points. Now imagine building a 12 figure CE band with a wardrummer + 4 fodder. Your options really decrease and I wonder if he was designed/balanced for the 12 figure rules. But since both the 8 figure and wardrummer were release at the same time problably not. I think he would be more interesting if he had range 6 and/or countersongable (as others have mentioned).
(sorry for the repeat post) | |
| |
|
Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 04/03/2006 11:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by millygoat
it's hard to imagine a more flexible better nugget of tech than the wardrummer.
LOL & very true.
~~
It will be interesting to see what comes in WoDQ, if there will be anti-drum beats tech.
I agree with Rav950 about countersong should work against it.
I think you can kill off or disable the drummer far easier than a 35+ pt piece though. With incredibily weak saves it's bait for stun and other effects. | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
|
Zyla
Underboss
1193 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 1:13 AM |
| | Problem is if the Wardrummer had a range of 6 with all its drumbeats, it wouldnt have enough HP to be within 6 of where the combat is taking place, and get killed way to fast. | |
| |
|
kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 1:15 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zyla
Problem is if the Wardrummer had a range of 6 with all its drumbeats, it wouldnt have enough HP to be within 6 of where the combat is taking place, and get killed way to fast.
Only countersong has a range of 6. The other 2 affect all allies/enemies on the map. | |
| |
|
Zyla
Underboss
1193 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 1:16 AM |
| | Yes i know, i was pointing out if all the drumbeats had a range of 6 instead of no range limitation, it would be killed too fast to be worth using. | |
| |
|
XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 04/04/2006 10:41 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ack
The Wardrummer is incredibly efficient. I really like the intimidating beat after Ive used the resistance beat to make my BW save and MC.. switch over to intimidating and shazzam, you run away from me! and that is as good as a kill alot of times.
Constructs, Undead & FB's don't run away, ever.[:D]
Now if a Wardrummer could "intimidate" a HH, I would certainly agree it was cost effective. But the next time I see it do that will definitely be a first.
As is, I'll vote "It's really not worth 19 points". | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
|
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10429 Posts
United States
| | 04/04/2006 10:49 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by rhane
quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Honestly, most of my LG warbands lately haven't been including the Couatl. While the Couatl is a nice piece, there are plenty of other options open for LG at this time.
Wow, that's weird. There's some weird font problem with my browser. It looks like Jesse described the Couatl as "nice" and said there are other options. I must have a virus or something. [)]
My machine must be infected too. Or, perhaps, the aliens have landed and replaced Jesse with someone else.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
|
lynchpt
Sergeant
929 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 11:02 AM |
| I am firmly in the camp of the Wardrummer being worth his 19 points, but I think he is only moderately undercosted. Or perhaps it's better to say that he is aggressively costed as any figure must be to be a tier 1 type figure.
That said, I also don't consider him an auto-include in all CE bands. The wardrummer costs just enough to make it impossible to include him in certain band concepts. For example, I used Tiefling Captain, Hill Giant Barbarian x2, Quaggoth Slave, Hyena, Orc Warrior x3 at my last tournament. The tiefling and 8 activations were the key requirements for the band's design, so the wardrummer was left out. I went 4-1, and the loss would still have occurred even if I had used the Wardrummer (I rolled a 3 on morale and immediately had my first HGB run off the board).
I think the Wardrummer is good enough that you should always consider putting him in a band, but don't be afraid to leave him out.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
|
kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 11:20 AM |
| Well, the 2 people who don't feel the Wardrummer is worth his points seem to both be from the UK. It's easy enough to imagine that the meta is different enough there that it may not be worth it to them.
I disagree, but that's a personal opinion [:D]
In the US/Canada, there have been too many tournaments which have been won by the HGB/Wardrummers, or at least made a strong showing in the top 25%. I don't think it's a fluke | |
| |
|
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
Chainmail Bikini
Skirmisher
14 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 11:33 AM |
| What do you mean he isn't worth 19 points????
Let's do some math.
How much more would an Orc Champion cost if its level was changed to 11 rather than 7? 4 pts? 5 pts?
How much more would an Eye of Gruumsh cost if its level was changed to 12 rather than 8? 4 pts? 5 pts?
How much more would a Red Samurai cost if its level was changed to 13 rather than 9? 4 pts? 5 pts?
How much more would a Hill Giant Barbarian cost if its level was changed to 12 rather than 8? 8 pts? 10 pts?
How much more would an Orc Warrior cost if its level was changed to 5 rather than 1? 1 pts? 2 pts?
How much more would Ryld cost if its level was changed to 12 rather than 8? 4 pts? 5 pts?
How much more would a Mounted Drow Patrol cost if its level was changed to 11 rather than 7? 2 pts? 3 pts?
Add up this point cost increase for including 7 other figures in your band who's level has basically just increased by four. That should easily add up to more than 19 points. Now factor in the option of switching this to morale save -4 and/or countersong.
The 19 point cost is clearly worth it and the fact that everyone plays him should be final proof. To say otherwise means you haven't thought about it enough. | |
| |
|
DinoBen
Sergeant
412 Posts
Based outta Games of Berkeley, CA
| | 04/04/2006 12:38 PM |
| As stated earlier, another (one of the many) feature(s) that makes the Orc Wardrummer so appealing is his versatility. Mostly the Wardrummer has been used to boost the morale saves of CE beaters.
But the Wardrummer is more versatile than that. Using his Intimidating Beat, couplese with Cursed Spirits, Troglodytes and Ogre Ravagers, you could drop your opponents Morale saves to (what is that?) by 8? Now say you were crazy enough to run an Aspect of Bane... And Intimidating Beat has synergy with some pretty nasty CE commanders, the Vampire Aristocrat and Balor topping the list.
The cream to this entire crop is that in addition to either raising or lowering Morale saves, he also presents Countersong to CE, almost for free! And, as stated earlier, he's Fearless w/ 35 HP, so if you want to take him out, you've gotta commit a beater or two to just that task, and when you're facing CE Heavies like Orc Champs or Red Samurais, you need your own beaters elsewhere.
I second the motion, right now there isn't a CE build that couldn't benefit more from spending 19 points on an Orc Wardrummer than spending those points elsewhere. [}:)] | |
Champion of all things Athasian
"Don't sing it - Bring it!" | |
|
XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 04/04/2006 12:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chainmail Bikini
What do you mean he isn't worth 19 points????
Let's do some math.
.... and the fact that everyone plays him should be final proof.
"Final Proof" by how popular the figure is.
Is that how you prove mathamatical probabilities ?
| |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
|
Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 12:53 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Maybe the UK folks will keep to that line until the end of the month. They've got a big event coming up ... just like folks here may ... er ... not communicate in the same fashion before their qualifier, perhaps we're seeing a bit of that?
[:p]
Hoy! look here! I think some of us like the War Drummer! It's just that some people *wink wink* *nudge* *point* *point* think that Helmed Horror still conquer all [:D]
We shall see | |
| |
|
alepulp
Underboss
1538 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 04/04/2006 1:29 PM |
| I've tested and tested CE with and without the Wardrummer - they may not be able to scare away a HH, but they can give the CE beaters longer to beat them off the map.
The European Championships will be fascintating - who's setting red herrings going, where smoke screens are being fanned and where double bluffs were being played.
I just hope that people will forgive successful feints in the name of the game.[^] | |
One of these days WoTC will update their tournament page when I'm in the top 5... they never seem to do when I'm in that bracket :(
My Collection My DDM Website And My Trade Refs Be a part of the UK DDM Forum
| |
|
Herald of Winter
Rav950
Warrior
340 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 2:22 PM |
| | Save +4 isn't just making your morale saves. It means stunning attacks fail. Breath weapons do 10-15 damage to your 70+hp piece. Gauths only get to use their fire ray with any consistency. Its very, very strong. The intimidate drumbeat is a great add to press your advantage, but its the save +4 that all CE players are including it for. Its been likened to the Couatl for CE, and I'd call that assessment pretty accurate. | |
Thanks for the memories. :) | |
|
True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 2:36 PM |
| A lot of times its really hard for me to switch to Intimidating Drumbeat or Countersong. The +4 to *all* saves it just too good, I'm afraid to switch and then really need it. Only in a real rare situation would I switch from the +4 to saves. I've done Countersong once, because 2 Aspect of Kords whirlwinding on me was not a fun thing. But seriously, as Rav950 said, its the +4 to saves, being able to be anywhere and have it affect your allies, and having 35 hp's of fearlessness, is what makes this unit a must have. I seriously cant imagine not having him in a CE warband. While you might be able to fit in another hitter without him, with him you are practically *assured* your hitters arent routing. I'd rather have 3 hitters who I know almost for sure arent routing, than 4 units who have close to a 50% chance of routing each.
Granted even an OC can rout with a +15, but its pretty dang unlikely. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
|
Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 2:58 PM |
| I like the Wardrummer, but I think the designers really ran the numbers when costing him.
Here's the thing: If you have 4 Orc Champions and a Tiefling, the OCs have a morale save of +11. That means they make morale saves 60% of the time, and in the long term, that means you'll have 2.4 of them left after they all make the morale save.
If you have 3 OCs, a Tiefling and a Wardrummer, they have a morale save of +15. That means an 80% chance of success, but in the long term, that still means the same 2.4 of them make their morale save.
So, with the Wardrummer, you have the same number of Orc Champs after the morale save, but you have one less before it. Can you make up the missing offense? Maybe, since you have 20 more points to spend, and you have the +4 to other saves to help you out as well.
So if you're fitting the Wardrummer is by reducing your support, that's good. He's probably better support than what you had. But if you're fitting the Wardrummer in by reducing the number of hitters, then you're going to have to work pretty hard to make up for it. | |
Champion of the Rakshasa. Check out my Mini Terrain Maker, or my new Dungeon Map Maker (under development). | |
|
True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 3:33 PM |
| Its not just Morale Saves tho. Its every kind of save. This means stuns, paralysis, Breath Weapons, Morale Saves, etc. I think too many ppl are focusing on the morale saves. +4 to all saves, without line of sight, and he has 35 fearless is just *awesome*. I would almost say there isnt a more efficient peice. Even the drider I think is less of a peice than this one.
You may have the numbers right about how many hitters you end up with in the long run, but my hitters with the Orc Wardrummer will have more HP's(because of saving against more BW's, etc) and they will have a better chance at things like Stuns from Githzerai Monks, etc. And all of this, for 19 points.
*shrug* I'm not saying he should be banned or something like that. But I do hope more thought goes into the peices. While I do want competitive peices, i friggin *hate* must have peices. I seriously think you'd be a fool not to have one of these in your CE bands. I know for sure other CE bands will win, but this guy just helps out every single band out there. You get so much more by including him, thus your chances of winning overall increase. And thats what ppl want.
I'm pretty sure I remember reading where one of the designers said that they assign a point cost to the figure, and then like play 3-4 games(or something like that) and then adjust if they think they need to. Dont remember where I read it at, probably the WotC boards. But if this is true, I think they need to play a few more games with some of these peices. This peice seems to have gotten a little bit too much. And a *lot* of other peices just seemed to have gotten crap. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
|
Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 3:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Benimoto
I like the Wardrummer, but I think the designers really ran the numbers when costing him.
Here's the thing: If you have 4 Orc Champions and a Tiefling, the OCs have a morale save of +11. That means they make morale saves 60% of the time, and in the long term, that means you'll have 2.4 of them left after they all make the morale save.
If you have 3 OCs, a Tiefling and a Wardrummer, they have a morale save of +15. That means an 80% chance of success, but in the long term, that still means the same 2.4 of them make their morale save.
So, with the Wardrummer, you have the same number of Orc Champs after the morale save, but you have one less before it. Can you make up the missing offense? Maybe, since you have 20 more points to spend, and you have the +4 to other saves to help you out as well.
So if you're fitting the Wardrummer is by reducing your support, that's good. He's probably better support than what you had. But if you're fitting the Wardrummer in by reducing the number of hitters, then you're going to have to work pretty hard to make up for it.
Im not going to delve into your math or logic, but Im finding that pieces are being properly priced for skirmish more and more. Theres Skirmish viable stuff at an appropriate cost and theres RPG stuff that isnt priced well. One of the first comments that wasnt "this is broken" or "this piece SUCKS!" about the HGB was "hey, it really feels like its worth 78 points". I want to see MORE of that. I want 2 78 point pieces to be able to go either way vs 4 39 point pieces. see what im getting at? | |
Minis... Serious Business
Completed Trades (18 ) | Pending Trades (0)
Ebay seller to Avoid –Fantasy_Quest_Dist
| |
|
Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11587 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 04/04/2006 4:16 PM |
| | While the Orc Wardrummer is a very good piece, I don't think that it is as much of a requirement as the Inspiring Marshal was during the Inspired Frenzy days. CE has other competitive warbands without the Orc Wardrummer. Back then, and even up to now, CG is nothing without the IM - he makes the CG hitters viable, and gives the archers a boost. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
|
Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 4:23 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ack
Im not going to delve into your math or logic, but Im finding that pieces are being properly priced for skirmish more and more. Theres Skirmish viable stuff at an appropriate cost and theres RPG stuff that isnt priced well. One of the first comments that wasnt "this is broken" or "this piece SUCKS!" about the HGB was "hey, it really feels like its worth 78 points". I want to see MORE of that. I want 2 78 point pieces to be able to go either way vs 4 39 point pieces. see what im getting at?
I agree. I think they're getting better at costing pieces. And part of the reason why the Wardrummer is so cool is that there are very few cost-effective "tech" pieces in CE aside from the Wardurmmer. The cursed spirit, maybe. The Drider, definitely, but we all saw how that went. I'd like to see more pieces in CE (or all factions really) that are as effective as the Wardrummer. | |
Champion of the Rakshasa. Check out my Mini Terrain Maker, or my new Dungeon Map Maker (under development). | |
|
Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 6:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Thenameless
While the Orc Wardrummer is a very good piece, I don't think that it is as much of a requirement as the Inspiring Marshal was during the Inspired Frenzy days.
Yes, but part of that is the fact that CG really only had two worthwhile bands from Aberrations until Angelfire. Go-Go barbarians and Inspired Frenzy, and both of them played roughly the same. You wouldn't use an Inspiring Marshal in an all archer band, for example. Or if Drizzt had been a little better or the GFD gave +5 damage instead of the critical modifier.
But with the wardrummer there isn't really any CE warband I can think of that can't use him. He helps out the Vampire Aristocrat, Balor, Death Slaad, Red Samurai (intimidate for the BW, then switch to the bonus), really almost anything you can think of.
I'm not saying that he is broken or should be banned. I just think that he is somewhat unhealthy for the game. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
|
Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 7:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gristlemane
[quote]Originally posted by Thenameless
But with the wardrummer there isn't really any CE warband I can think of that can't use him. He helps out the Vampire Aristocrat, Balor, Death Slaad, Red Samurai (intimidate for the BW, then switch to the bonus), really almost anything you can think of.
I'm not saying that he is broken or should be banned. I just think that he is somewhat unhealthy for the game.
Hmm, while he's still good with Slaads or Samurais, remember that his intimidating drumbeat doesn't lower all enemy saves, just morale saves. Does that change your opinion any? | |
Champion of the Rakshasa. Check out my Mini Terrain Maker, or my new Dungeon Map Maker (under development). | |
|
Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 04/04/2006 11:08 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Benimoto
Hmm, while he's still good with Slaads or Samurais, remember that his intimidating drumbeat doesn't lower all enemy saves, just morale saves. Does that change your opinion any?
No. The reason he is nice for the slaadi is that he gives you decent saves without having another commander. If it worked with the deadly rend the wardrummer would just be sick. For the samurais you want low hp opponents (gold dwarf soldier, etc.) to fail their morale.
I do wish it were +4/-4 for just morale or +2/-2 for all saves though. That way the effect is either limited in effect (so you can still hit the orcs with paralysis, BW's, etc.) or by degree. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
|