| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
| | Author | Messages | |
Zoeskyfarm
Warrior
176 Posts
    
EDMONTON - CANADA
 | | 04/08/2006 11:00 PM |
| With all of the chill touches out there now with the release of war drums the only unaffected undead is the Nightwalker. Many undead are incorpreal and if you fail your moral save your running though walls to the exit and your ofen caught off gaurd and cannot see your commander. Being fearless is a great build to any warband. But is it still worth the trouble being undead with more and more threats of chill touches and turn undead. I find myself using the undead less and the living fearless more. Perhaps this months epic card with bring more balance back for the undead with the aspect warband building.
Has any one played with the Epic Aspect of Nurell yet? How did it go? | | | |
|
PepperWhisperRady
Sneak
143 Posts
| | 04/08/2006 11:07 PM |
| im a bit new but i think turn undead isnt that great, its a moral save.
the zombie white has a save of 10 so hes not really in danger eather... and i should know im the champ of the zombie white, read my signature
PepperWhisperRady | |
Da kewl king of kewl kewlness... who is kewl!
The champion of the Assassin Vine! | |
|
Zoeskyfarm
Warrior
176 Posts
EDMONTON - CANADA
| | 04/08/2006 11:13 PM |
| | Would you use a Zombie White or a Blood Ghost | | | |
|
Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 04/08/2006 11:47 PM |
| Undead have a number of problems.
1) No Constitution. This results in a very big penalty to their hitpoints. Not good.
2) Slow speed. Undead generally top out at speed 6, with a few notable exceptions.
3) Weird attacks. Most powerful undead have some sort of special attack. A ghast can paralyze you, a wight or vampire will drain life, etc. These sorts of things are beginning to be costed better, but were hard to balance originally. As a result, most undead are inefficient.
Those three things: low hitpoints, slow speed, and inefficient costing, are not absolutely necessary for every undead. Case in point, see the ZWD, Direguard, Deathlock, etc. They just make it somewhat hard to make them into beaters. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
|
Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 1:57 AM |
| Epic Aspect of Nerull losing his inflict crits is bad for undead bands. I'm wonder if there was some fear of the EAoN healing ZWDs and doing major point denial, but that doesn't sound remotely unbalanced.
Anyway, there is some undead that could work well. ZWD is a great meat shield and blocker.
Skeletal Equicephs are good low-cost hitters. However, with the advent of Large Duergars, they lost their punch.
All the major undead hitters (Death Knight, Mummy Lord, etc.) are too expensive and very fragile for their cost.
So I guess they never had it. The only undead I can think of as even tier 2 or higher are:
Lord Soth
Lich Necro
Warrior Skeleton
Wolf Skeleton
Zombie White Dragon
And none except Warrior Skels belong in tier 1. | |
Champion of Neogi
Completed Trades/Transactions: sttmxn, Krush, jgsugden, Ayrychx2, Venport, Tysac
| |
|
scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 04/09/2006 3:29 AM |
| | Don't forget Cursed Spirits and Sacred Watchers. Incorporeal undead will most likely always have a place in strong warbands. | |
Champion of the Revenant
Knight of the Elf Duskblade
Complete Trades: Oni, Kidkach, Melrune, callidusx3 | |
|
Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 3:46 AM |
| Doh! How could I forget Cursed Spirits. Call it senility. Yes, Cursed Spirits should be on that list and join the War Skel as a tier 1 type figure.
Sacred Watcher at first glance definitely looks promising. But too early to tell I think. | |
Champion of Neogi
Completed Trades/Transactions: sttmxn, Krush, jgsugden, Ayrychx2, Venport, Tysac
| |
|
iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 04/09/2006 6:44 AM |
| | Sometimes I play the aspect nerull+death knight or mummy lord combo.I play a lot the beholder+lord soth combo.The first does not work very well but It can work nice if you play right and the second works very well.Another good undead piece is the cursed spirit and i think its almost one of the most powerful undead minis and very dangerous with wardrummer,umber hulk,troglodite...And the zombie withe dragon is a nightmare for your rival. | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
|
BunnyPuncher
Sneak
171 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 10:42 AM |
| | Don't forget the gravehound. He's the undead I use most frequently. | |
Champion of the Huge Green Dragon *cough* Cyan *cough* Bloodbane *cough* | |
| 
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
United States
| | 04/09/2006 11:07 AM |
| The Lich Necromancer has been piloted with great successfulness by some players (though he no longer will be).
Lord Soth has been in some great bands (though, I suspect, his day in the sun may be coming to an end).
Right now, the best undead pieces to use are tech pieces: Cursed Spirit, Wolf Skeleton, Gravehound, Sacred Watcher, etc.
A few, such as the Warrior Skeleton, and perhaps some other low-cost pieces, can turn out to be excellent activation fillers for the last two or three activations in a band, if the right synergies are built into the band.
But, for now, undead bands, do not have it.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
|
Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 12:27 PM |
| | Sacred Watcher is either tier 1 or very close to it. The amount of them you seen in LG warbands these days seems fairly high. Killing them is a pain, they are mobile for an LG piece and do decent damage. At least I like them. [)] | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
|
PepperWhisperRady
Sneak
143 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 2:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zoeskyfarm
Would you use a Zombie White or a Blood Ghost
I personnally would use the zwd, and no its not because im the champ of it, well ok it is.
it does'nt have as good attack as the bgb, but has way more hp, an actually decent ac and has flight so you can do everyones favorite sport... commander hunting! | |
Da kewl king of kewl kewlness... who is kewl!
The champion of the Assassin Vine! | |
|
Lord_rock
Underboss
2023 Posts
Portland OR
| | 04/09/2006 4:24 PM |
| Undead never had it...i tried and tried and tried...they are terribly terribly costed...c'mon they mummies into mommies...to compensate for their resiliance they should have had double hp and still dr...at their costing times that would have made them astronomically expensive but i have faith they'll do more and do them much better...lots of things are getting a hp boost and undead should get treated the same soon or at least be cheap as hell...we'll have to see a new vampire, mummy, ghoul/ghast, and deathknight soon...they are staples and should reappear soon...i personally hope to see Varuna, mummified minotaur of Legend eventually but would like more mundane versions sooner rather than later...loved that idea for the creature comp not long ago...
chill touch isn't so prevelent...the only critter that has it that sees lots o tourny play is the Zakya...it will increase his value slightly but people are still playing hill giant barbs even though there are many giant foe/bane creatures...we just need well costed undead...
original mummy 25pt ish
death knight 45ish
mummy lord 37ish
| |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
|
Berzerker_of_Chaos
Skirmisher
33 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 4:28 PM |
| | You people are crazy undead are amazing what with all the amunities they have. I give you that alot of them are over pointed but oh well and as for the zombie white dragon its an amazing piece what else an take 130 points of damage for 37 points its a walking shield. I even run it with orcs just so that not one orc has taken damage by the time they go ballistic on the opposing army. And ZWD are the great anti beholder. Even when an opponent uses a chill touch most zombie that are worth keeping stay around and alot of undead just cant dish out the damage but thats why they have all their special abilities. | |
| |
|
zdrake
Warrior
279 Posts
Albany, CA (near Berkeley)
| | 04/09/2006 5:55 PM |
| Except for the pieces already mentioned, I don't think undead ever "had it". Yes, there are some tier 1 "tech" pieces: cursed spirit and sacred watcher (I consider this tier 1, but others are taking a "wait-and-see" attitude). But the "all(or mostly) undead band" has not emerged in the same way that the "all(or mostly) monk band" became a genuine threat with the appearance of the Githzerai Monk.
I was a huge fan of the Zombie White Dragon for a long time. I loved how he is just a huge meatshield that is often just not worth it for your opponent to spend the time to kill it. And I love its ability to neuter beholders, but I don't see them as much any more. And ultimately I agree with the toolkit author who opines that it's probably better to spend the 37 points on another hitter. I found Zombie White Dragon helped me beat players who weren't as good as me, but made it hard to beat top level players playing top level bands.
I'm not sure about the Nightwalker in epic, as I don't really follow the 500 point meta-game. | |
Champion of Acererak the Demi-Lich (w/ Epic Card)
D&D minis gathering in Berkeley, CA at Games of Berkeley (every other Tuesday, and sometimes every Tuesday.) | |
|
Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 6:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker_of_Chaos
You people are crazy undead are amazing what with all the amunities they have. I give you that alot of them are over pointed but oh well and as for the zombie white dragon its an amazing piece what else an take 130 points of damage for 37 points its a walking shield. I even run it with orcs just so that not one orc has taken damage by the time they go ballistic on the opposing army. And ZWD are the great anti beholder. Even when an opponent uses a chill touch most zombie that are worth keeping stay around and alot of undead just cant dish out the damage but thats why they have all their special abilities.
What's an "amunitie"? [)]
The Zombie White is a meat shield, but it's offense is poor with slow attack. It has uses, but Beholders aren't much use in 200 these days either. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
| |
|
Damien the Bloodfeaster
Sergeant
885 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 04/09/2006 8:22 PM |
| The ZWD serves best in 500 points, where beholders are still not uncommon in LE warbands.
I think there's also a place for the Vampire Aristocrat in 500 points. Combined with a wardrummer, Huge Red Dragon or Ogre Ravager, Cursed Spirit, Trog Barbarian, etc., and Warduke, you have the makings of a possible instant-kill effect, at a steep save penalty. Even warbands with Iron Golems, Maruts, etc. generally have non-fearless pieces, and many of these figures are fast enough to slip by the front line and target more vulnerable units.
Of course, the VA is a commander, and so not eligible for the Epic Aspect of Nerull's warband building. But still...
Lich Necromancer was decent at one time, though never I think Tier 1. As I recall, he was often run with a Clay Golem or two. | | | |
|
elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 10:29 PM |
| I don't know that chill touches and turn undead are that big a deal. First, only LG (IIRC) has any turn undead in significant numbers of figures and the only known competitive pieces that pack it are the cleric of order (one use and big enough to turn real undead), the village priest (again one use--but only just enough for a cursed spirit), cleric of Yondalla (turn undead 1, 1 use IIRC), and Jozan (also CG, but only turn undead 1).
Thinking about it a bit more, the cleric of Corellon (CG) also had it IIRC but that's hardly dominating the metagame these days.
Of the new pieces, the frost dwarf probably isn't worth worrying about, but the combat medic (turn undead 7) and Zakya Rakshasa (unlimited chill touch) are. Still, they're both unproven and thus far, the hill giant barbarian and the relatively low save have been keeping the Zakya Rakshasa out of widespread use (at least I think that's what's doing it).
For evil undead (most of what's discussed thus far), I think evil undead slayer on the sacred watcher is a MUCH bigger problem than turn undead. | |
| |
|
Zoeskyfarm
Warrior
176 Posts
EDMONTON - CANADA
| | 04/09/2006 10:35 PM |
| | wow all very good points thanks for all the advice this forum rules | | | |
|
Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 04/10/2006 3:29 AM |
| ZWD is nice and all, but its too easy to ignore these days. 10 damage attack of opportunity really isnt all that dangerous. And since we see far less low HP fodder these days the breath weapon isnt so usefull either.
Best used in epic as a Beholder shield. | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
|
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
| |
ActiveForums 3.7 | You must be signed in to participate in the
games. |