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Jerry_Damage01
Sneak
146 Posts
    
 | | 04/09/2006 9:16 PM |
| | Ok, the general concensus I get amongst the boards is that Quad Horror is not a great band. From all the playtesting I've done, I've come to the conclusion that they only have 1 bad matchup and that's the Coutl/Marut bands. Against HGBs, they have a high AC and 380 fearless hit points. Agasint Chraals, they have flight so they can attempt to assaninate the commander. Anyways, what I'm asking is for the reasons about why this warband is not on people's list of things they fear because I'm not seeing it. | |
Champion of the Aspect of Damage
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| D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 9:24 PM |
| If I'm going to play a HH warband, I'm generally going to play a triple because it's more flexible and adaptable. To me, this is very important in a large tournament, where you will likely run into several unexpected warbands that could easily be a bad matchup for your all-eggs-in-one-basket approach.
Compared to a triple, a quad sacrifices at least one of the following:
- Solid commander rating (ability to get your desired map and win key inits)
- Quantity of activations
- Ability to bypass DR
- Speed 8 for improved assault point acquisition
- Auto damage, in the form of cones or lines
- Tech (slides, stun cones, etc.)
I'd rather have a slightly-less-beefy warband that has a few tricks up its sleeve. That's why I have played the triple the last two times I've played HHs.
Now, that said, several folks have piloted quad HH warbands successfully in medium/large tournaments. I'm not saying they *won* the tournament, but they did pretty well. Evidence shows triples generally placing higher than quads though. | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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NightMoor
Sergeant
448 Posts
| | 04/10/2006 12:30 AM |
| This is an easy question to answer. Mind you, Quad-Horror is a very good band, and a tough customer to face. It also has a multitude of nice qualities, such as maneuverability and incredible consistency.
But, its damage potential is somewhat low compared to what a hitter-based band, like CE, can put out. Orc Champs kill HHs in four hits, whereas it takes 6 hits for a HH to take out a Champ (despite the Champ being a much cheaper figure and now having excellent morale saves thanks to the Drummer).
Against certain other bands, like LG sporting a Couatl, or any army using figures that are resistant to either Fire or non-magic damage, the HHs lose even more damage potential and frankly might not kill very much for their points (whereas they are worth a lot more victory points to kill versus just about anything they can expect to face).
Really what you're doing when you take a Helmed Horror is paying 10-12 extra points for survivability, so you're paying for some great defensive power as well as some good maneuverability. Whereas for 12 pts cheaper you can get almost identical attacks (and arguably better magic damage) from a Duergar Champion, the Helmed Horror gains a ton of life, immunity to a ton of bad stuff, and the ability to fly. So it's a choice of "to splurge or not to splurge".
I think one, or even two, Helmed Horrors, can be extremely good, but I would absolutely hesitate to play three or four - at that level all you are doing is magnifying your weaknesses without gaining all that much in return. Besides, LE has so many outstanding units, both in hitters and tech, that it's hard to justify taking nothing but the Horrors. | |
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 04/10/2006 8:23 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by NightMoor
But, its damage potential is somewhat low compared to what a hitter-based band, like CE, can put out. Orc Champs kill HHs in four hits, whereas it takes 6 hits for a HH to take out a Champ (despite the Champ being a much cheaper figure...
4 hits at 60% & 35% tohit.
6 hits at 95% & 85% tohit.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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EldritchSoul
Warrior
324 Posts
| | 04/10/2006 9:41 AM |
| quad horrors is a very tough band. the problems with it lie less within the band itself and more with the matchups it can face. marut+couatl is only one example, dragon shrine and anything with DR is also a sufficient nerf. Realistically, though, anything with DR or resistance/immunity to fire also reduces damage potential to the point where you're looking at a LONG battle.
In LE, for 180 points, you can have 5 chraals or DCs, as well as quite a bit of support. the damage potential is just as high, and has a smaller likelihood of getting nerfed. despite their fragility, oftentimes, they're the better choice. | |
Champion of Dracotaur- Vindicated!
T32 | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 04/10/2006 11:10 AM |
| | The helmed horror warband is not a great one?Oh,man,Its one of the most powerful...You can mix helmed horror,duergar champion,chraal and large duergar for a very fun a solid team.The best is abuse of the Helmed,using 2 or 3 of them.And with the gauth,they can do massive damage.Theyre great,indeed. | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
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tahjn
Sneak
142 Posts
| | 04/10/2006 12:00 PM |
| In my experience if you run more than 2 HHs you are in for a load of trouble from just about everything for the reasons mentioned already. You lose activation control and a good commander. I personally find only one of them to be more than adequate. I think that he is designed to be a special mission piece. Commander and fodder hunting mainly, while I use 2 Duergar Champs and a Zakya Rakshasa to deal 45-90 magic damage a turn(or more if they get crits)
The Zakya also has the added bonus of being able to turn undead (those pesky Sacred Watchers that seem to be more and more prevalent in Lawful Good bands.
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 04/10/2006 12:03 PM |
| 2nd place in the SoCal tournament suggests they are better "special mission" peices.
I also piloted a Tri-HH band to first place at a local event last week. They are a solid warband. | |
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lalato
Underboss
1546 Posts
Urbana, IL
| | 04/10/2006 12:05 PM |
| I agree with what others have stated here. However, if I were building a quad horror band, I would go commanderless. If I'm going to go for it, I'm going to go all the way. That said, I wouldn't play quad horrors in the first place... just sayin' [)]
--sam | |
I'm in Urbana, IL | |
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CTSparky
Sneak
128 Posts
| | 04/10/2006 12:31 PM |
| my $.02
I like a mix of hitters instead of all HH's. I generally use 1 HH, 1 Zaky for the turn and the initial hit, and 2 DC's for secondary hits. This allows a good amount of damage with good to hits, while diversifying the typs of damage. I also tried removing 1 DC for a chrall and it helped for the breath weapon to clear fodder, but I'm not sure if i want to do that again.
on a side note. I'm surprised that many people did not choose the dragon shrine map when playing. I'd figure with the amount f HH's out there they would pick a map that helps cancel them out. | |
I have yet to be Guyf'd. But I have been f'ed. | |
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alepulp
Underboss
1538 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 04/10/2006 1:14 PM |
| I tested several variants of 3xHHs and the 4xHH variant, in all its forms, never really satisfied me. Simply because in its various forms it gave away something. It was either in the form of fodder, activations, initial tile points or simply being able to adapt. I agree 100% with Guys notes above on this.
I've played 3HH against 4HH quite a few times, in various forms, and 3HH has tended to win. (well... 100% so far - and in some cases *some* luck). | |
One of these days WoTC will update their tournament page when I'm in the top 5... they never seem to do when I'm in that bracket :(
My Collection My DDM Website And My Trade Refs Be a part of the UK DDM Forum
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 04/10/2006 1:47 PM |
| In the Underdark time frame, I tested/played 4HH extensively and believed it was probably the best band by at least a small margin. Because of changes in the metagame and map availability, even though HHs no longer need a commander to move freely, I believe the 4HH version is somewhat weaker than heretofore.
I observed the phenomenon you mention, alepulp: When 3HH plays 4, the 3HH team usually has some strong damage enhancing tech like Bigby's slapping hand or slide. Going by the odds, 4HH will eventually beat down 3HH. But while this attrition is going on, the 3HH team can usually turn the scales by getting 2-6 extra attacks via spells and the initiative advantage letting mortally wounded HHs get their last two attacks off.
Pat Lynch
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Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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Gorgasim
Sneak
66 Posts
| | 04/10/2006 1:58 PM |
| | Ive always wanted to face a quad horror band with my 2x steel pred band. Man would that be funny. | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 04/10/2006 2:07 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gorgasim
Ive always wanted to face a quad horror band with my 2x steel pred band. Man would that be funny.
The only problem with that approach is that you only get one shot at that matchup during each tournament - round 1. After that, the Steel Preadators go in the loser's bracket and the HHs march up into the winner's bracket[)].
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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Gorgasim
Sneak
66 Posts
| | 04/11/2006 12:33 PM |
| | But the meta game is filled with helmed horrors! the only thing that really scares me is high hp/dmg pieces like the HGB. Otherwise with a little luck i can have some fun:P | |
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doranur
Warrior
180 Posts
| | 04/12/2006 3:58 AM |
| | quad horror is a fine band, and if you want to run it, it's a band i'd guess is qualifiable (able to come in the top 4). the real question is why give up everything that comes with a commander, especially the really nice options available? if you can prove you run the band better with 4, play with 4. most people will take the benefit of the rakshasa or dark naga however since it will help thier game. | |
-Doranur
join the revolution! down with round/turn fascism! viva la resistance! | |
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