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Thespian
Sergeant
442 Posts
    
Lethbridge, Alberta
 | | 04/10/2006 1:26 PM |
| Taking a look at how many creatures are fearless (or equivalent) in the different factions and this is what I get:
LG - 21
CG - 9
LE - 30
CE - 35
In terms of being able to access units that do NOT leave the board due to a dice roll, I think you can see a correlation between the number of fearless creatures and what the current meta holds for dominance.
Anyone else surprised to see this? Is fearless the biggest factor in terms of being able to field a competative warband??? | |
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 04/10/2006 1:35 PM |
| | No. Having a good morale save is important, but being fearless is hardly a requirement for competitiveness. How many fearless creatures are there that are actually considered competitive? Many of them have poor hit points, are overcosted, or otherwise have a lack of abilities to ensure their usability. | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 04/10/2006 1:38 PM |
| I think the correlation you referred to is coincidental. Particularly in the case of CE, most of their fearless pieces are ineffective undead creatures. Most of the top CE figures in play are not fearless.
Helmed Horrors for LE and Maruts for LG (among others) are very important pieces, but a look at recent top finishing bands reveals that non-fearless units (Chraals, HGBs etc) are still holding their own.
So, I think the phrase "all-important" is strecthing it.
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ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Foxman
Sergeant
417 Posts
Calgary, AB, Canada
| | 04/10/2006 2:28 PM |
| | Break each number down and only list "competitive" fearless pieces - then consider whats happening... | |
It would be very unlikely for unlikely events not to occur.
- J. A. Paulos "Innumeracy" | |
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Thespian
Sergeant
442 Posts
Lethbridge, Alberta
| | 04/10/2006 5:10 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Foxman
Break each number down and only list "competitive" fearless pieces - then consider whats happening...
Granted, this will be very important to the question, but I think you have to also look at what sorts of figures get shafted because of the fact that MANY of the competative warbands (those with frenzied berzerkers, Justice Archons, Helmed Horrors, Maruts, Golems, etc) have a fearless critter in them.
The Warpriest of Moradin would be an AMAZING teir one piece if the field didn't have as many fearless figs to contend with. Things like the Kumat, Chimera, Large Bronze Dragon, Balor, Purple Dragon Knight, and the Vampire Aristocrat would all be much better figures if the number of fearless figs were kept at a minimum. Right now, I don't think there are ANY teir one warbands that contain ANY of these figures since they automatically have a bad matchup against things that are fearless.
Likewise, pieces like the Cleric of Dol Arrah ends up being far more valuable because it can grant other figures fearless. This also means that it gets better and better with the more soldiers that are released.
It comes down to ChristopherGroves said about reliability. If you can be more reliable, why wouldn't you? Would you rather play with a 3 pt goblin warrior or an undead, fearless Skeleton? If I can choose between a Helmed Horror and an Efreeti...I am going to go with the Helmed Horror every time (even for the 3 extra points) because I know my 45 points isn't going to run away after taking 35 measly points of damage from being smashed by a Hill Giant Barbarian.
The only reason why Chaotic Evil doesn't absolutely DOMINATE every tournament is because their key figures are NOT fearless. They will have a chance to run away, even though it is a lot less of a chance with the wardrummer now. If you are lucky enough to not fail a morale save playing Chaotic Evil, it means that you must have won. I have rarely seen them loose by chewing through every hitpoint they have. With Helmed Horrors and Maruts....you can count on every one of those 95/75 hitpoints to keep you around.
Then you look at poor little Chaotic Good....with their saving grace - a Frenzied Berzerker, and you you wonder why they are not as competative at the moment. Not that the Lion of Talisid helped much with this......9 fearless figures (includes one with bravado?!) doesn't leave much chance for any of them to be tournament worthy.
If they make a piece fearless, they give it a chance to become playable. Nowadays, if it doesn't, it better move 8, hit for 30 damage and have a 2:1 ratio of hitpoints, it is not going to be considered.
One piece of possible evidence....the Spirit Folk Fighter. under command of a beastmaster (like GFD) it hits at +9 for 15 magic damage. Packed together with 40 hitpoints and a speed of 7 for a tidy 19 points really should give it a tier one status, no? But we sure don't see them tearing up the metagame! All it takes it one hit from Rikka or a Goliath Barb or a Red Sam and it scurries off the map like a rat that has seen the daylight..... | |
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Thenameless
Warlord
11768 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 04/11/2006 1:58 AM |
| Fearless is not a factor. Those numbers mentioned are skewed by many useless undead creatures. Here are some non-fearless tier 1 pieces:
Orc Champion, Hill Giant Barbarian, Chraal, Githzerai Monk, Duergar Champion, Red Samurai, Tiefling Captain, Couatl
...and some fearless tier 1 pieces
Frenzied Berserker, Marut, Helmed Horror | |
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Janos M.
Underboss
1015 Posts
Hamburg / GErmany
| | 04/11/2006 4:22 AM |
| | Fearless is factor if building a warband, but it's not the biggest. For me it's a bonus. | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 04/11/2006 4:22 AM |
| | I think fearless is one of the most interesting features.Many of the most useful creatures have it like frenzied,helmed,marut,quaggot,wardrummer,cursed..... | |
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 04/11/2006 5:33 AM |
| A lot of players think the wardrummer is worth over 19 points because it adds/subtracts 4 from morale checks. Having your entire warband fearless is clearly more effective than (+/-) 4 to the save.
Note; Warpriest of Moradin may be Tier-1 inspite of some opposing warbands having lots of fearless figures. It does have both Init+6 & a lot of usefull spells.
I watched a WPoM/Marut warband, wipe out a dual HGB warband in 4 turns last night. 2 sacred watchers routed the commander, while a buffed (AC:28) Marut blocked the HGB's.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
| 
Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 04/11/2006 6:59 AM |
| Fearless is nice, but it falls way behind hit-rate, speed, HP and damage.
The # of really effective fearless units is actually quite small.
If fearless was indeed all important, we'd see alot more all undead bands. In truth fearless is really just a compensation for the low HP on most undead figures. Take the Death Knight, fearless but with only 65 HP, admittedly overcosted but highly effective. In this case fearless merely makes up for the lack of the extra 20 or 30 HP it would have if it were alive. The same holds true of the Mummy Lord, Vampires, Wights and Zombie figures. These don't rout, they get blasted off the map after they get hit enough.
LG actually with a combination of high saves and very high Commander levels has many units that are nearly fearless, only failing 15% or 20% of the time. Along with BOLD and Fearless this faction routs less (% wise) than the Evil factions that theoretically dominate the world meta game. The slower speeds allow for the pieces that do rout to come back into play because they can't get to the exit.
CG may lack the number of Fearless units, yet their units are able to take more damage than the other factions so an extra hit worth of HP should keep them on the board a round longer. Where this fails is the abysmally low levels of this faction coupled with the weak AC. Your Spirit Folk routs because he saves at 4+CMDR rating unlike the Gold Dwarf Soldier (same set, similar cost) who saves at 8+CMDR rating. Thats a big difference.
AS for CE, they are just like CG. Massive HP and low saves/AC. The only reason that CE shows so many fearless units in your breakdown is this is the "Monster" faction. Non-competitive, undead, RPG figures designed so Dungeon Masters can torment their players.
LE, well LE should have some fearless units. It fits the evil monster flavor. Most of the fearless units are undead, so they suffer, like the Death Knight. Horrors are a rare exception, as constructs, with LOTS of HP. But frankly constructs are lawful creatures so that's that. We will probably see more like them. Tellingly, very few of the toolkit figures for LE are fearless.
As for fodder, 3 point Goblins over 3 point skeletons, it depends on the rest of the band. And at 5 HP, a hit is a hit, your dead either way.
The numbers are about right across the factions. No I'm not surprised by the numbers. Fearless is important in certain instances and for certain strategies but it is no more important than any thing else that balances into warband construction. | |
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