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lantern314
Sergeant
684 Posts
    
 | | 04/16/2006 1:08 AM |
| Let me start by saying I am a slow player. I try to play deliberately so that I make as few mistakes as possible. I do not ever try to limit the number of rounds in a game to gain an advantage.
I played on the teleport temple for the first time tonight. The game was very spread out and so there were a lot of options to consider since we never reached a point where everyone just threw up their hands and rushed the middle. My opponent was frustrated because we only played four rounds. Going back over the game, I think it was 5, but I wasn't counting, so I will defer to him on that matter. He told me, "you have got to learn to play faster. Spend some time studying the map or something," in a way that betrayed his frustration. He felt that that given another round he would have been able to kill my commander and win. My position is that if I hadn't known that the game was ending, I wouldn't have moved my commander to the position that allowed him to get hit. And even if I had, I would have taken out another one of his pieces and won anyway. But, that is peering into an alternate future and is neither here, nor there. I also know how I play pretty well and think that my pace was determined by the spread out nature of the game and the number of options, rather than unfamiliarity with the map. I was also playing aggressively enough to take out two of his 30+ point beaters, wounding another, and killing two of his tile grabbers, while just losing two tile grabbers, and a tech piece. I wasn't just sitting there.
My impression from reading posts here is that tournament games tend to run 4-7 rounds, which would put us at the low end, but not so bad as to get me griped at. Am I mistaken? | |
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demitroy
Skirmisher
39 Posts
| | 04/16/2006 1:24 AM |
| I'm assuming an hour for a round here, so take what I say with that in mind.....
4 rounds of play over an hour (assuming 8 activations each side) means 1 round every 15 minutes.... So with 16 minis in play on the first turn that works out to a minute per mini per round.
Figure in tile grabbers needing between 10 to 15 seconds on the first round (maybe second round as well depending on situation) and leaves an easy average of more than a minute on the "important" pieces.
Add in that you admit that you took out at least 4 of his pieces (leaving him with less activations to consider) and it would appear to me that you definitely took your time with your moves.
Does that mean that you were deliberately slowing play? Not at all. Especially with teleport map because of the possible plays that the map allows, but I can see an opponent being peeved when you figure that a minute for each piece to move (and that's without elminating anything) over an hour of play means a lot of time doing a lot of nothing. Especially when you figure in those pieces that don't move but spend an entire action attacking (should definitely take less than a minute each, which increases the average time spent on other activations).
I think the biggest slow down to the game right now is that fact that a lot of players (at least 80% of the players I've seen, which includes various qualifiers and championships) don't make the best use of the time they have. Plans for important pieces should be made while your opponent is in the middle of his/her activations which will allow yourself even more time to choose from possible plans to respond to your opponents actions..... Kinda like a chess game. Don't wait for the other player to move before planning your next move. Plan ahead and spend a couple of seconds verifying that your plan is still valid rather than having to start from scratch after the other player says, "I'm done"......
Kinda long winded, and not trying to say either player was wrong, but just pointing out a couple of things I noticed.
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lantern314
Sergeant
684 Posts
| | 04/16/2006 1:42 AM |
| I appreciate your response demitroy. Especially the bit about planning during your opponent's moves. That is something I was good at in Mechwarrior, but am not so good at yet in D&D minis.
I'm not sure if it changes anything about the original post (which is really about wanting my opponents to feel as if we had a good game and that I beat them fair and square, not by shorting them on playing time), but as I think about the match more, I'm convinced that we played 5 rounds, based on knowing what Shuluth was doing.
Round one-moved near the teleporter backed up against my start area (I think I was A)
Round two-teleported to the spot in the middle of the side closest to me (my start area was to my left). That was where he was based by hims Duergar Champ
Round three-Attempted to stun the Duergar and teleported to the spot in the far corner to my right where he was based by three of my opponent's creatures.
Round four-Stunned two of them and teleported back to the spot against my start area where he was first.
Round five-moved off the teleporter to base and attack his duergar which died that round. | |
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Ridureyu
Underboss
1622 Posts
| | 04/16/2006 1:47 AM |
| | The Teleport Temple games that i saw today all lasted the full hour with minimal casualties - like, one of them had only one death on each side. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 04/16/2006 1:59 AM |
| Teleport Temple is the new Drider. [)]
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 04/16/2006 2:05 AM |
| | I have never had a teleport game go to time. they generally start slow and end in a ton of slaughter at the end. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 04/16/2006 2:12 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
Teleport Temple is the new Drider.
I wasn't skirmishing in the Drider Sorcerer era, but there's no doubt that the Teleport Temple slows me down significantly. Considering the caliber of the competition in the Bay Area, I was already not a particularly speedy player, but the Temple pushes me down into "slower than average" territory. I never stall ... in fact, I do just the opposite, and try to play faster specifically to fit in a final round, even if I'm ahead.
I already don't pick the map, and I'm on the verge of saying I'll never pick the map ... so if somebody picked the Teleport Temple, he's got only himself to blame if we only go five or six rounds. | |
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Zippy
Underboss
1993 Posts
Whitewater, WI
| | 04/16/2006 2:36 AM |
| Let me just add, for those who do casual games (non-DCI DDM rules), Teleport Temple plus Drider versus range / beater mix warbands makes for an incredibly slow game.
The averages presented above need to include:
1) time to choose map, sides, and setup in starting areas
2) the 1st two rounds in teleport temple are the slowest, and there are still the most activations in these rounds (minimal casualties yet)
i would guess 45 sec per piece per move is a good guideline; going to 1 minute per piece is probably too slow | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 04/16/2006 2:42 AM |
| Oddly enough, all the games I've ever played on Teleport Temple end up resolving quickly. By round 3 or so, someone has stumbled or gets bored and an opening is exploited for the beginning of a melee. At that point, with every part of the map so easily accessible, lots of minis jump into the fray and before you know it, carnage ensues and the game is over in the next few rounds.
So I don't think I've had a Teleport Temple game end with time called and a winner declared on points. | |
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 04/16/2006 2:48 AM |
| Yeah, I agree with Feathers. I have yet to see a game not resolved before time on the Teleport Temple. Then again I rarely have games go to time, unless that was part of one side or the other's strategy.
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I am not gone. | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 04/16/2006 3:23 AM |
| Teleport temple games tend to be over real quick with me too.
I was avging about 22 minutes last time I had that as my map. | |
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lalato
Underboss
1546 Posts
Urbana, IL
| | 04/16/2006 10:13 AM |
| I've only played on the map twice. On top of that I'm very rusty as I haven't played competitively in months. Both times I played on the map I noticed that my internal game clock slowed to a snail's pace.
I found myself reverting to my earliest days playing DDM where I would check and then re-check each move because I had to ensure where I would end up in relation to not just one or two pieces, but to all of my opponent's pieces that were at or a near a teleporter. I had to take into account not only those creatures' ability to meet my creatures in melee, but any and all special abilities (spells, breath weapons, etc.).
That's a daunting task when you haven't played in a while. Teleport temple is grueling for those uninitiated in it. Both times I've played I've learned something new about it, but this is a map that requires a lot of practice, as did proper use of the Drider.
--sam | |
I'm in Urbana, IL | |
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PerpetualStudent
Sneak
173 Posts
| | 04/16/2006 10:42 AM |
| | I have found that length of time playing on the teleporter map involves style of play as much as familiarity. If both players are playing beater bands, then it is unlikley to take the entire hour as there will be a big battle somewhere once they commit and that will decide the game. However, if one, or both, players play groups that rely on hit and run - as does the group I am currently playing, then the outcome will depend upon how sucessful one is at staying out of the fray. I have yet to play on the teleporter map and NOT have the game go the full time, but it is because I am often trying to stay away from my opponents beaters and only attack individual minis that I can kill on engagement. This actually means we play as many as 12 rounds because there is a great deal of sitting on teleporters and not moving until forced to do so. There are just a lot of factors that go into why a match may only go four rounds and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as there is no deliberate stalling, and that's what judges are for. | |
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Daunte
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 04/16/2006 11:04 AM |
| lantern, ill reply to your email a little later today or in the morning, kind of hectic with it being easter.
As far as playing slow, i dont think you do it on purpose at all, you are a deliberate player and do think everything through. That does make things drag out though for your opponent and make things seem like they are going way to slow.
Probably the best thing said on here in the topic is to play it more like chess. Once you move your two activationsstart thinking about the next two while your opponent moves. That way when its back to you, you have a good idea what your going to do already.
I have only played you twice. The first time at the pre-release, which i will admit frustrated me alittle bit because i thought you were playing slow. That was a new map for everyone that day as well though so that does count into it. After the tourney yesterday when we played though you were fine. Playing the band you brought and winning map init and being familiar with your map and strategy probably played a big part in it.
As far as the game though, i wouldnt stress it. who you played, he really isnt the greatest loser. He is one of the greateest guys i know but he doesnt take loss very well. We talked about it on the drive home and ill email you and talk more.
And with upsetting him, dont worry about it, at least you didnt make anyone cry like i did ;( | |
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BunnyPuncher
Sneak
171 Posts
| | 04/16/2006 11:28 AM |
| | I usually spend the bulk of my time at the sanctioned tournaments watching others play for about 30 minutes a round. My games are wickedly fast (15-30 minutes) and the teleporter is no exceptiom. I don't think I'd bother with DDM if I had to play versus some of the horror show sloths I've read about. Anyone who can only fit in 3-4 in an hour is going to be ridden like a government mule on tax day if I'm around. | |
Champion of the Huge Green Dragon *cough* Cyan *cough* Bloodbane *cough* | |
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demitroy
Skirmisher
39 Posts
| | 04/16/2006 11:34 AM |
| Like I said, I wasn't coming down on anyone in my original post. Just pointing out some numbers and things I've noticed...
Hell, there are times when I can take 3-4 minutes moving a single mini (not often, but sometimes it takes that long).
At least with the change to maps you don't lose a quarter of your time to placing tiles and then having to play a "new" map every game. :) | |
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TheOriginalGamer
Sneak
149 Posts
Oklahoma
| | 04/16/2006 1:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by demitroy
I'm assuming an hour for a round here, so take what I say with that in mind.....
4 rounds of play over an hour (assuming 8 activations each side) means 1 round every 15 minutes.... So with 16 minis in play on the first turn that works out to a minute per mini per round.
Figure in tile grabbers needing between 10 to 15 seconds on the first round (maybe second round as well depending on situation) and leaves an easy average of more than a minute on the "important" pieces.
Add in that you admit that you took out at least 4 of his pieces (leaving him with less activations to consider) and it would appear to me that you definitely took your time with your moves.
As the tournament organizer I see multiple matches go to time. We try to plan for a TOTAL of 1 hour for rounds. This means 5 minutes of "move to this table" and get set up, and then 5 more minutes for remaining activations to be used for longer running matches. Map initiative, then setting up your figures can take a little while as well, especially if your unfamiliar with the map.
So lets say 45 minutes of actual play during the round. 16 pieces normally activate Rounds 1 and 2. If you took 45 seconds per piece, the first two rounds take 24 minutes. That is a pretty low average (does this have line of sight, what if I move to this teleporter and move three squares this way, etc etc).
Round 3 - 12 pieces left - 9 minutes (33 minutes total now)
Round 4 - 8 pieces left - 6 minutes (39 minutes total)
Round 5 - 6 pieces left - 4.5 minutes (43.5 minutes, match is probably over by this time due to the setup time mentioned above).
Let's use 1 minute per piece, which is a little more simialr to what I see.
Rounds 1 and 2 - 32 minutes total
Round 3 - 12 minutes (44 minutes)
Round 4 - Starts right before time is called, about 8 minutes.
Things that can change the time:
1) Knowing your OPPONENTS war band very well. If you never have any questions about it and are familiar with all it's abilities, that lowers the time considerably. The opposite of this is very true. If someone rolls in with a piece you have never seen, don't know the abilities, etc, then you might need a few 10 second questions here and there to ask about it. 12 questions about a warband could cost 2 minutes, and therefore two activations worth of time.
2) Intricate knowledge of the map. Even with this, some maps are harder than others to move quicker through. The teleport temple can add quite a bit of time compared to other more open maps due to the sheer number of options you have. Being familiar with it helps a little, but not really all that much. Being familiar with Field of Ruin for example, can save quite a bit of time.
3) Less activations. If you have 6 activations per round you can almost count on having 7 rounds of play using the same formula used above.
4) Rules questions / conflicts. Waiting on a judge to answer your question could take 1-3 minutes, costing you 1-4 activations worth of time.
That being said, a 30 minute TPK round can happen, but requires an optimal level of options to occur. You opponent has to be a veteran of the game, and has to have a solid knowledge of your squad (assuming it is more than just a melee attack simple squad) and their own. Further they have to have knowledge of the map, assuming it isn't full of tactical options like the teleport temple is.
These 30 minute rounds are rare because of this.
4 - 5 rounds on a brand new map, that map being the teleport temple map, using a warband that isn't a beater band, with several kills on your opponent definitely means you were not playing slow.
I agree with Daunte, it probably was the sting of losing and frustration at the map as opposed to your style of play. Losing one single match in the tournament most likely means you will not win the case of miniatures, and that is probably the source of frustration and nothing personal. :-)
I hope you guys enjoyed the convention.
Take Care,
Jared | |
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One_Wing
Sergeant
494 Posts
London
| | 04/16/2006 2:29 PM |
| | In my experience, not much happens for about ten minutes, then everything gets slaughtered in the next 5. | |
Thousands of Zulu's, behind You!
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 04/16/2006 2:34 PM |
| | Jockying for position, there's an opening after a while, then all hell breaks loose.. It's so different playing on the map compared to usual maps! | |
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Daunte
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 04/16/2006 5:26 PM |
| Jared, had a great time, thanks for having us. If we dont get a pre-release for WotDQ we will definitely be there for yours.
As far as the whoel situation with that game, it happens. Its the next day, no ones feelings are hurt anymore, at least i hope not.
And i hope it doesnt keep anyone from playing.
Other then that, HAPPY EASTER EVERYONE!!!!! | |
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TheOriginalGamer
Sneak
149 Posts
Oklahoma
| | 04/18/2006 5:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Daunte
Jared, had a great time, thanks for having us. If we dont get a pre-release for WotDQ we will definitely be there for yours.
As far as the whoel situation with that game, it happens. Its the next day, no ones feelings are hurt anymore, at least i hope not.
And i hope it doesnt keep anyone from playing.
Other then that, HAPPY EASTER EVERYONE!!!!!
I am glad you guys made it my friend, and no hard feelings whatsoever. I just wanted to clarify why matches take longer than people realize. I don't think either player is angry at all.
It was a great convention and tell Jason we said congrats on the case of minis. We are all set of the pre-release, so if you don't get one there, you are more than welcome to come to ours.
Oh, and Jeremy left his warband, but he won the D20 book in the ticket drawing. :-)
I think he is contemplating coming here for one of our Saturday tournaments to pick up his stuff. Are you going to join?
See ya,
Jared | |
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NinjaRay
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 04/18/2006 8:32 PM |
| | With only 8 figures and Preset maps, You and your opponent should always get at least 6 rounds. Anything else is unexceptable to me. I understand that thinking every move though is a mark of a good(great) player, however I've also seen dice rolls unravel the best plans. Because your always gambling on dice rolls, spending too much time planning out every move just becomes silly. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of smart play and tricky manuvers, but taking several minutes to second guess your plans, only to stick to your original actions is a waste of time. I'm all for thinking something out, but the problem is it can very easily be a trap, leading to wasted time and lost rounds. I say everyone needs to play faster. | |
Beatdown Happens.... | |
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 04/19/2006 11:48 AM |
| The short answer is yes, one (or both) players in this game were clearly too slow.
quote:
Originally posted by lantern314
Let me start by saying I am a slow player. I try to play deliberately so that I make as few mistakes as possible.
Any position in ddm could be analysed for any number of moves ahead.
Doing so without limit will cause any game to time out. Even games with very limited options (per move) like chess will time out if players can be "deliberate" without limit.
quote:
Going back over the game, I think it was 5 rounds, but I wasn't counting
4 rounds or 5, this is a detail. The important point which proves the game was too slow is;
quote:
He felt that that given another round he would have been able to kill my commander and win. My position is that if I hadn't known that the game was ending, I wouldn't have moved my commander to the position that allowed him to get hit. And even if I had, I would have taken out another one of his pieces and won anyway. But, that is peering into an alternate future and is neither here, nor there.
That sentence clearly shows the game had not reached a decisive end.
With 8 figures & maps (not tiles) games should either reach 200pts in 1 hour or at least reach the point where one player has a un-recoverable advantage. If 1 more round could have swung the result either way. Then play was too slow.
Personally I suspect tournament games will continue to time out with indesisive results until WotC change the floor rules to impose a "match-point" reward for games which complete (reach 200 points) | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 04/19/2006 12:04 PM |
| Note; In the UK open (over 2 dozen players)
The majority of the games fininshed (at 200+ VP's)
And I'm only aware of two of the 50+ games which had an "indecisive" result on the time limit.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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GooDisBaD
Skirmisher
12 Posts
| | 04/19/2006 6:43 PM |
| BAH! Should have known he'd get that book...he put a ton of tickets in there....
Back on topic though....I played lantern right after the match in question. There was only one time where I wanted to throttle him because I felt he was taking too long....but then, the situation did merit it, and after about 5 seconds of utter frustration, I was done with the urge.
I think one of the problems in this game, among others, is that people don't consider what their opponant is trying to work out before jumping to conclusions. This can lead to a host of reactions ranging from bad moves, to frustration because of "slow play". I always, always like to take a step back and look at everything again when my opponent suddenly takes longer on a move...it usually means they've seen something that has jumped to the front of a list of options they are considering....something I may have missed. Not everyone thinks like that.
As for coming down to a tournament...if Jeremy is headed down, I'll probably come as well. I need to start testing out a new band, after I get two pieces, and I might as well start in unfamiliar territory. Tactics down here are becoming predictable....or still haven't developed into something complex. (No offense Daunte, but I'm sure you can say the same) | |
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