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Originally posted by Daunte

Just a few things that i observed about your post.

Your first reason. CG only got 12 or 13 mini's in Wardrums. Count them up, all CG mini's from all sets as well as cg/lg and cg/ce and mini's available in any faction. 154, which is roughly 29% of all the mini's ever made. Kind of defeats reason 1. As well as the fact that underdark had 13 LE mini's. The numbers are never going to be completely even, but i think there really close to it now.

Reason number 2. Every faction has peices that could be beefed up by new peices. Dont really see it as valid either. Im sure tons of people could come and pick out a mini and post how it could be made better by a new mini. Its every faction.

Reason number 3. Your putting one single peice out from another faction and saying its one of the reasons CG needs help. Nothing personal but if your basing everything off the wardrummer then maybe you should play a band with the wardrummer in it instead of CG. Other factions have thigns similar. LE can put in a blackguard and any figure level 8 or higher only fails morale on a 1. Try to get CE or LE up the the AC some LG bands have, CG for that fact too. SHow me one peice in any faction that can give you the same bonus as the couatl? All the factions have there star peices.

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Originally posted by Dagni

I'm very nearly convinced that the (only) reason CG can't compete right now is because it's the weakest faction.

In other words, it doesn't get much more balanced than it is right now, but if you rank the factions in order, one of them is going to get ranked 4th. Far more often than not, the faction ranked fourth won't have more than one or two spoiler bands that are really tournament worthy. That's the case in CG right now. I mean, 3 FBs with Inspiring Marshal is really very good! It's just that other factions have better warbands that are more robust in the current metagame. Someone has to be fourth, bummer for CG that it's them.

- Dagni

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Originally posted by Thenameless

Would the HEBI work if it were 35 points? How about the Centaur Hero for 65 points?

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Originally posted by Shadow_Fox

There is one major reason CG cannot compete in todays metagame. The union of the Hill Giant Barbarian and the Orc Wardrummer.

The HGBs primary weaknesses are its low save and its low attack bonus. Its low save is bolstered by the Wardrummer, and its "lower" attack bonus means little against the lower ACs of CG. Combine this with the giants enormous damage output on top of the low HP to point cost CG figures and you have a recipe for disaster for a CG player. Regardless of where you put HGBs on the tier scale, its a fact thta they are going to show up at tournements and this alone is enough to keep CG down.

Point for point, CG has to pay more for its abilities then any other faction right now. This is why CGs beater curve is in the high 40s to mid 50s range. Another intersting thing to look at is that a lot of figures in CG that could be considered for the beater slot are also commanders. This drives up the average cost of the beater slot by a signifigant margin, denying CG of its potential high 30s to mid 40s beater figures that it could tripple or quad up on while having decent support.

The focus for CG really seems to have been lost. We used to default it as the ranged faction, but its becomming more and more apparent that ranged attacks are not a efficient use of points with todays speedy units and obscuring maps as easy counters. Before too long though we should see CG leap forward to put it in line with the other factions. Look at what the last couple of sets has done for LE....

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Originally posted by IanB

Now, mind you, CE beaters like the red samurai and orc champion suffer here as well; however I doubt as many people are shedding a tear over that circumstance.

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Originally posted by robbdaman

That's the whole point. Everything in CG is really too expensive. As Ian said, CE faces a similar problem facing a Wardrummer but usually half their warband isn't put into just two figures like a lot of the time you have in CG. Are certain CG figures still overcosted? Definately. Wemic and Warforged Barb were overcosted and pale against the Frenzied. This goes back to the lacking that I mentioned in my first post in this thread. Cost effective, fluffy uselessness and lacking creativity. If the Wemic had melee reach it would probably be worth it's cost. Warforged Barbarian needed to drop a good 5 points in cost to be usable for what it is or at least make it level 10. I mean it's 13 more points than a Warforged Hero and it's a level lower. Saves are what kill CG right now. Routing is almost always a 50/50 shot or worse.

R~

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Originally posted by Thenameless

I really liked the ideas behind the Valenar Commander and the Nentyar Hunter, but they were just too expensive.

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Originally posted by iluvxtina

I think the only really overpower creatures in CG are the frenzied, inspiring,archmage and crow shaman.

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Originally posted by Jesster


1. Give them better blockers. All the potential blockers in CG are either way too fragile, or way too expensive. -=The Jesster: Gatchaba Goose=-

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Originally posted by IanB

Effects like the CoE's, especially on a piece as hard to get as the CoE, actually don't serve CG very well and can't be part of a solution (assuming for the moment that a solution is needed.)

The typical design trap that effects like that create is that creatures are costed/designed with the idea in mind that people will use that commander effect. If the goliath barbarian had a sword, he'd probably cost a fair amount more; look at the sword-wielding figures near it in point cost (longstrider ranger, longtooth barbarian) and consider just how much more efficiently the goliath is costed. For another example, consider that the silent wolf goblin probably costs too much because the fact that it can benefit from Snig's commander effect is built in to the minature. Instead of the CE serving as a boost, it ends up as a hindrance.

A piece that the CoE made super efficient would have at best a small effect on the metagame, and at worst would cause a serious have/have not split in warband construction, since very few people who don't already have a CoE are getting one going forward.

One thing I think we can take note of is that the figure costing trends which are visible in LE pieces through War Drums are indicate that the devs are taking a very conservative approach to finding the right balance for the factions that they probably made overcosting errors in at the beginning of the game.

Consider the progression of LE beater figures in the 30s zone:

Ha: none
DE: Salamander, Thayan Knight
AR: none
GoL: none
AB: half-elf hexblade (sort of)
DK: skullcrusher ogre
AN: chraal
UD: duergar champion
WD: zakya rakshasa

There's a clear trend of increasing efficiency as they went, especially if you look at the AB to WD progression. Each set they figure out the costing points more finely.

CG just isn't as far along on the development path. I think there's at least a bit of a pattern in pieces in the mid 20s to low 30s that you can see developing, though:

AB: longtooth barbarian
DK: goliath barbarian, griffon
AF: longstrider ranger, celestial pegasus, weretiger (oops), LAA (oops)
UD: rikka, half ogre barbarian
WD: none

There are obviously more false steps in this progression, and it seems clear they haven't really hit on the CG formula yet. Similar issues can be seen in the ~50 point beater design in CG.

I think it becomes very obvious that they're working on it, once you take the time to look at the figure design trends.


Now there is another issue, and that issue is indeed the wardrummer. It is a very specific issue - CG is by far the most vulnerable faction to the wardrummer's intimidating drumbeat. Their major beater pieces are almost all level 8 or lower, and the highest commander rating typically considered playable in CG is 4. This doesn't translate to good times when the wardrummer is around. Even CE has a better defense against the wardrummer than CG does, simply because they'll probably have a drummer of their own!

Only CG's small number of fearless pieces really avoid that issue. I don't really know how they're going to design themselves out of this particular corner. It may be through added mobility that allows CG to really strike into the backfield and take out the problem at the source. Rikka and the pegasus already help with this, really.

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Originally posted by iluvxtina

Yes,shadow fox,I disagree.I have seen two frenzied+marshall making a total of 180 damage to the enemy in the second turn.Literally the rival (with eye and orcchamp) was completely obliterated before the match begins.The crow shaman is one of the most useful minis in the game and he goes well with kord,frenzied,wemic,rikka,goliaths....I cannot imagine a warband withou him.And the archmage is the only one mini that gives me the victory in a tournament (two swords onto a silver dragon and my opponent withdrawing).Surely you have your reasons to say this minis are not on the top but in my opinion theyre the best of CG.

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