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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
    
 | | 04/17/2006 7:22 PM |
| Ok, so I'm obsessed about the LSD.
I'm surprised that there was not single LSD band in the latest WBC, I'm even more surprised that I submitted a Marut band as opposed to an LSD band.
Anyway the LSD took a hit with the latest rules making Vulnerable X identical as Double Damage from X. However the LSD still has great saves, and elemental protection with the Couatl.
Anyway, I'm not here to discuss the viability of the LSD, I'm here to try to build the best band possible with the LSD.
The first decision with an LSD band is to decide whether or not to use the Couatl. The Couatl provides some key spells and abilities that strengthen the LSD, but also limit what you can do. LSD + Couatl = 36 points to play with.
Maximize Fodder/Tech
Large Silver Dragon
Couatl
36 pts fodder/tech
Now what to do with the remaining 36 points? Despite winning the Twin Falls Qualifier last year with no other commanders I really think that we need more than commander 0 now. There are 2 options. Cleric of Yondalla provides Commander 3, and MW for 14 points. Cleric of Order provide Major Resistance x2, Shield of Faith, and commander 5 for 24 points.
Commander 3
LSD
Couatl
CoY
22 pts fodder/tech
Commander 5
LSD
Couatl
CoO
12 pts fodder/tech
This, I think pretty much exhausts the possibilities with a Couatl. After the Couatl there are 3 other possible worthy commanders. There are the already discussed Cleric of Yondalla, Cleric of Order, and the Cleric of Dol Arrah. Cleric of Dol Arrah adds some very nice heals, and a Dismissal that can deal with the many Outsiders that you may see (Justice Archon, Goth Monks, Tiefling Captain, etc).
Highest Commander
Large Silver Dragon
Cleric of Dol Arrah
33 pts fodder/tech
Only CoO
CoO
LSD
54 pts tech/fodder
Only CoY
CoY
LSD
64 pts tech/fodder
Now lets discuss fodder/tech options.
Tech/Fodder
Fodder for Activations
Man at Arms - 3 pts
Human Commoner - 3 pts (faster than a M@A)
Hill Dwarf Warrior = 4 pts
Azer Raider - 5 pts (fire immune)
Fodder for tile points
Timber Wolf - 5 pts
Warforged Scout - 8 pts
Fodder for paralysis damage
Barbarian Mercenary - 9 pts
Fodder for Magic Weapon
Mialee, Elf Wizard - 6 pts
Tech pieces
Standard Bearer - 10 pts (counter song)
Healer - 12 pts (healing)
Aramil Adventurer - 13 pts (nerfer)
Cleric of Moradin - 14 pts (Shield of Faith)
Gold Dwarf Fighter - 17 pts (beater)
Combat Medic - 28 pts (Healing)
Justice Archon - 32 pts (beater)
Now, what is the best build?
What do you think? Give me more commanders to think about, give me more fodder/tech pieces to think about. Suggest other builds.
Here is my opinion:
With the Couatl there is only one piece that I'd really fear with regards to fire damage, and that is the Gauth, since there doesn't really seem to be all that many bands that utilize this piece. Without the Couatl, pieces like the Helmed Horror and Red Samurai are all of a sudden much more scary.
This leads me to feel that the strongest build will include a Couatl.
As I already stated I don't really think that Commander 0 is enough, especially since the Couatl will run @ 30 damage unless it rolls 11+. A CoY lowers this to 8+, and a Cleric of Order with Major Resistance lowers this to 3+.
Now in my previous experience playing LSD + Couatl the rest of your warband will be eliminated, with only the Couatl and LSD remaining. At this point you opponent will feel a sense of accomplishment and total up the points, realizing that he only has 36...
Thus I think that I would play with the following:
LSD
Couatl
Cleric of Order
Mialee, Elf Wizard
2x Human Commoner
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7675 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 04/17/2006 10:33 PM |
| Whatever you find out, let me know what you'll be bringing to Twin falls. [:)]
I think you would be best served by:
LSD
Couatl
CoO
Azer
Hill dwarf
Human Commoner | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 04/17/2006 11:23 PM |
| I'm not too high on the LSD right now, but if I wanted to use one, I would pair it with a Slayer of Domiel. The slayer can overcome the LSDs problem that the dragon really can't kill many points worth of pieces in a typical battle. You need to be lucky to kill more than one main enemy unit against careful opponents. If you are only going to kill one figure, make it count for double! The dragon certainly should guarantee flanks. The problem is the scant amount of points left over. How about something like:
Cleric of Yondalla (MW)
LSD
Slayer of Domiel
Warforged Scout
Mialee (MW)
Jozan.
Pat Lynch
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nedleeds
Warrior
240 Posts
| | 04/17/2006 11:39 PM |
| Warforged Bodyguard
2 x Timber Wolf
2 x Man at Arms
Mialee
Cleric of Order
Large Silver Dragon
The WB makes the LSD nigh-unkillable in a timed game. The LSD can Cone through the Bodyguard. Chraals certainly can't kill it. A gang of HHs might be tough to track down though. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 04/18/2006 2:15 AM |
| The LSD's major problem right now is the likely high incidence of helmed horror-based bands. They only need to hit it 8 times to kill it with the rule change, while it takes nearly 3 full attacks from an LSD to kill just a single HH - and to make it even more fun, they can't be paralyzed. Losing the LSD is going to be nearly impossible to prevent, even in a timed game. I would have a hard time bringing a band to a significant tournament where I can expect there to be a couple of near auto-loss bands waiting for me in the later rounds, I think.
Given that the HHs are there, you need to come up with a band that has something you can do to minimize that bad matchup. Healing is one way around that problem, as is the couatl's energy resistance commander effect.
Having a high commander rating and picking the dragon shrine neatly solves the problem as well, although you do end up probably giving your opponent cold resistance 5 as well. That's not the end of the world, though.
As such, I'd concentrate on either the LSD/couatl build or the LSD/CoDA build. The couatl is certainly a more reliable way around the fire damage issue, so that's the first thing I'd test out. I'd say magic weapon is a must, given the possibility of chraals, so I lean towards the cleric of yondalla as the commander choice, a timber wolf for tile grabbing, and 17 points of fodder with your remaining activations. A standardbearer might be advisable if you think gith monks are going to be a problem, which would leave you at 7 activations.
I also wouldn't completely rule out the half-orc paladin, since getting the dragon to 20/15/15 could be a significant difference in some matchups, but you're really leaving yourself out to dry to the HHs in that case I think. | |
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Thenameless
Warlord
11768 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 04/18/2006 2:29 AM |
| Gnolaum, it sounds like you want to play the Large Silver as much as I want to play chaotic good. But, if you really want to win at a tournament, listen to IanB. There are a lot of good fire-users out there: Helmed Horrors, Red Samurais, Efreet, Gauths.
There are now also a lot of creatures immune to paralyze. Plus, more with DR 5. | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 04/18/2006 5:12 AM |
| | I think the Silver is one of the best creatures even today.The cleric of order is an absolutely must and I think aramil too.It needs magic weapon indeed so you have to add mialee,yondalla or eberk.A lot of people adds a healer too. | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 04/18/2006 9:40 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Teflon Jeff
Whatever you find out, let me know what you'll be bringing to Twin falls. [:)]
Since Edmonton got one this year, I probably won't be coming. Then again, I might... | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 04/18/2006 9:43 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by lynchpt
I'm not too high on the LSD right now, but if I wanted to use one, I would pair it with a Slayer of Domiel. The slayer can overcome the LSDs problem that the dragon really can't kill many points worth of pieces in a typical battle. You need to be lucky to kill more than one main enemy unit against careful opponents. If you are only going to kill one figure, make it count for double! The dragon certainly should guarantee flanks. The problem is the scant amount of points left over. How about something like:
Cleric of Yondalla (MW)
LSD
Slayer of Domiel
Warforged Scout
Mialee (MW)
Jozan.
Pat Lynch
Excellent idea - I'll have to think about that some more. Even the most construct heaving builds have some non contructs. It doesn't need 2 magic weapons however. | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 04/18/2006 10:06 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
The LSD's major problem right now is the likely high incidence of helmed horror-based bands. They only need to hit it 8 times to kill it with the rule change, while it takes nearly 3 full attacks from an LSD to kill just a single HH - and to make it even more fun, they can't be paralyzed.
Yes the Helmed Horrors are a concern. That is one reason why I nearly insist on the Couatl. With the Couatl it takes 15 hits from a Helmed Horror to finish the piece. This will likely lead to the HH player attempting to take out the Couatl first, which is why I like the Cleric of Order to increase its saves so that it won't route after 3 hits, but will take a full 6 hits to kill. With a Sonic Orb and a Cold Breath The LSD and Couatl can chew through a HH every 2 turns.
quote:
Originally posted by IanBHaving a high commander rating and picking the dragon shrine neatly solves the problem as well, although you do end up probably giving your opponent cold resistance 5 as well. That's not the end of the world, though.
Huh, should have kept reading before I started responding. No I don't really like the Dragon Shrine map.
quote:
Originally posted by IanBAs such, I'd concentrate on either the LSD/couatl build or the LSD/CoDA build. The couatl is certainly a more reliable way around the fire damage issue, so that's the first thing I'd test out. I'd say magic weapon is a must, given the possibility of chraals, so I lean towards the cleric of yondalla as the commander choice, a timber wolf for tile grabbing, and 17 points of fodder with your remaining activations. A standardbearer might be advisable if you think gith monks are going to be a problem, which would leave you at 7 activations.
Nearly exactly one of my lines of thought. My only concern is that with the CoY the Couatl needs to roll 8+ to make morale. CoO brings that to 3+, but including a MW makes it impossible to use the Standard Bearer. HH preclude the use of Gith Monks more than they do the LSD, so I don't think they will be prevalent, but it is still wise to prepare for facing them. Finally an Aramil, Adventurer will make HH's only do 5 damage a turn. Arghh choices, choices!
Question to all: You are building an LSD band and have decided to include the Couatl. Rank the following in order of importance:
-Include another commander so that the Couatl needs to roll 8+ to pass morale.
-Include another commander and bump the Couatl's save to 12 so that it needs to roll 3+ to pass morale.
-Including a Standard Bearer to deal with Young Masters and other commander effects.
-Including Aramil Adventurer to nerf things. Especially HH's
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 04/18/2006 12:09 PM |
| Arghh, I've really been thinking about what to do.
Previous dicussion has established that MW is necessary, the cheapest available one is 6 pts, but for 8 more I get a commander 3, so I'm going to add the CoY.
Now with the remaining 22 pts I'd love to fit in a Standard Bearer and an Aramil, Adventurer along with a few pieces of fodder. Unfortunetly that doesn't work, 1 pts short of fitting both, not counting the desired fodder.
Now which one to put in? If I see Young Masters (w/ Gith Monks) then I definitely want the Standard Bearer. If I see HH I'd definetly want Aramil, Adventurer. Other key bands it is more of a toss up, i.e. CE beaters could do with either, but I'd favor Standard Bearer if they had a Tiefling.
I think I may bring both, and fodder, and decide depending on what I see at the tournament... The only key choices are against YM and HH... And in either case the choice of the piece could be rather important to the outcome of that match... | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
United States
| | 04/18/2006 12:13 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by lynchpt
I'm not too high on the LSD right now, but if I wanted to use one, I would pair it with a Slayer of Domiel.
I'd say the same thing except for all the Lawful bands that can still take the LSD down by the end of the match. The Slayer adds a nice problem to the enemy's strategy, but if I'm going up against this kind of band, I'm still going for all those eggs in the LSD bsaket.
Dave | |
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My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 04/18/2006 12:20 PM |
| | Maybe I'm just a fast player, but I don't recall ever really playing a match with the LSD where the game wasn't won or lost within the 1 hour limit. Even when we had the 12 figure limit. | |
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DinoBen
Sergeant
412 Posts
Based outta Games of Berkeley, CA
| | 04/18/2006 1:08 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by lynchpt
I'm not too high on the LSD right now, but if I wanted to use one, I would pair it with a Slayer of Domiel.
With the Scout for 1st round tile points and the slayer to get double points for her first kill, this seems like a solid strategy. Attempt to get a lead on points and then play a denial game. However, with so many figs immune to paralysis and / or cold, not to mention the Dragon Shrine map to grant cold defense, the LSD has been knocked from it's competitive pedestal. I'd like to see someone put her back on top, though. Good luck! | |
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