Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
    
 | | 04/20/2006 1:05 PM |
| So I have a base band of:
Base Band
Large Silver Dragon
Couatl
And to it I'd like to add:
Ideal
Cleric of Yondalla
Aramil, Adventurer
Standard Bearer
3x Human Commoner
Unfortunetly that is 210pts. So basically I have to choose between one of the following 3:
Nerf and Commander
Cleric of Yondalla
Aramil, Adventurer
3x Human Commoner
------------------
200pts 7 activation
Countersong and Commander
Cleric of Yondalla
Standard Bearer
4x Human Commoner
-------------------
200pts 8 activations
Countersong and Nerf
Standard Bearer
Aramil, Adventurer
1x Mialee, Elf Wizard
1x Jozan, Cleric of Pelor
-------------------------
200pts, 6 activations
Aramil, Adventuer I think will have more overall usage, but Standard Bearer also helps out in quite a few matches, specifically GAS. I'm very much torn. What would you do?
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 04/20/2006 1:28 PM |
| | Aramil is a must.I always pick the cleric of order,but the yondalla is a very good one too.You havent a healer?Why? | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 1:36 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by iluvxtina
Aramil is a must.I always pick the cleric of order,but the yondalla is a very good one too.You havent a healer?Why?
I'd like to use the CoO, but I feel the LSD needs both a magic weapon (Mialee) and elemental resistances (Couatl), and this leaves only 6 points left afterwards.
As to the healer, it is all about points. In my mind CoY > Aramil > Standard Bearer > Healer. I'd toss it in if I could, but I can't get it too fit. | |
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Nobody Important
Sergeant
718 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 2:17 PM |
| Definitely choose one with the CoY. MW will keep you from getting hurt against DR and even if CR3 isn't going to win many initiatives it will certainly help close the gap.
Standardbearer vs Aramil basically comes down to what you believe you need more. | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 2:32 PM |
| The Cleric of Yondalla is a very smart call; definitely toss her in there, see if that opens up any new possibilities via Warband Building. If not, then I would take Aramil because you're trying to protect one piece very well (High AC is even 'higher' if all your enemies are at -2 Attack, -5 Damage), while Countersong is about defending multiple creatures.
While you're right that Countersong helps against GAS, GAS is one band amongst many, and it seems to be falling out of favor in a lot of circles. You get more mileage out of hurting multiple attack rolls against the Dragon than you do shutting down one particularly nasty commander effect. | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 3:28 PM |
| Yes, the LSD defintely needs a magic weapon, and I forgot to include that in the Countersong and Nerf addition, drop 2x Human Commoner, and add in 1 Mialee, Elf Wizard. I'll edit the original.
I agree with the general consensus that seems to be forming that Aramil, Adventurer > Standard Bearer.
Aramil Adventurer nerfs Helmed Horrors down to 5 damage/swing, knocks Hill Giant Barbarians down to +10/+5(30), meaning that they need to roll 14+/19+ to hit the dragon, puts Marut at 15 damage/swing... | |
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frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 3:35 PM |
| I would go with CoY and Aramil.
Vs GAS, the Standard Bearer is not going to live long - in fact he would probably be the first to bite it.
Vs Marut/Couatl, the standard bearer would be good, but Aramil is great at Nerfing the Marut.
Vs LE Rak Quad... Aramil is nice again. Just keep the Couatl out of sight of the Rak until after the breath weapon, or breath on units that are not within the Raks stolen protection
Vs HGB x2... HGBs dont need no stinkin commander effects, and are hindered a bit by Aramil - they still throw a beatdown but not as bad. I think Aramil wins again.
Vs other Titan builds... I would also go with Aramil because Nerfing a titan is always a good thing. (edit: how come Martha Stewart never posts on here?)
Also, Aramils Nerfs will stick with the enemy even after Aramil dies, whereas once the standard bearer is gone his effects go with him. Both are rather squishy, so Aramil has the advantage here as well.
Thats my 4 coppers. | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 3:37 PM |
| | Yep, I'm convinced. Aramil it is. Now if I would only stuff a Shield of Faith in there.... Alas it is not possible... | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 3:43 PM |
| A little chart showing what Couatl (C) and Aramil (A) do for the LSD with regards to various units, and required swings to kill (STK) the LSD. If you can think of any other critters to add, let me know.
<br>Unit STK STK w/C STK w/C+A<br>Hemled H 8 15 30<br>Chraal 15 15 30<br>HGB 5 5 5 (any heal makes 6)<br>Marut 5 8 10<br> | |
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Dapuma
Sneak
99 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 4:11 PM |
| I would take CoY
Mialee
then whatever else can fit
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Zippy
Underboss
1993 Posts
Whitewater, WI
| | 04/20/2006 4:16 PM |
| | Why does everyone recommend Mialee? LSD can get its Magic Weapon directly from CoY. Keep the fodderlings for more activations! | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 4:19 PM |
| | Mialee is only there if you don't have another source of magic weapon. Since Cleric of Yondalla has magic weapon having both is redundant. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 4:22 PM |
| | I might also think about the lantern bearer as part of the conversation. It might not be the right fit here, but should always be considered in that same range of tech-y LG pieces. | |
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dj-chuckles
Underboss
2455 Posts
The State that invented Spam!
| | 04/20/2006 4:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I might also think about the lantern bearer as part of the conversation. It might not be the right fit here, but should always be considered in that same range of tech-y LG pieces.
I used one in a Marut band (they missed 4 times because of it) then just went after him for a bit | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 4:55 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gnolaum
A little chart showing what Couatl (C) and Aramil (A) do for the LSD with regards to various units, and required swings to kill (STK) the LSD. If you can think of any other critters to add, let me know.
<br>Unit STK STK w/C STK w/C+A<br>Hemled H 8 15 30<br>Chraal 15 15 30<br>HGB 5 5 5 (any heal makes 6)<br>Marut 5 8 10<br>
The key is that you want a map that restricts movement, espescially from GAS bands. You want to keep the Couatl safe (long term) and keep the HGBs from swinging lots.
This chart should show you though ... if you expect to see HGBs in any quantity things look bad for the LSD. It also shows you that dual Maruts or Marut/Ballista or Marut/Couatl = problematic as well. | |
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 04/20/2006 4:55 PM |
| Awesome chart, Gnolaum. Is all this out of your head, or do you have a program to do this?
I'd like to see the accomapnying "STK" for the LSD against those particular units.
quote:
Originally posted by Gnolaum
A little chart showing what Couatl (C) and Aramil (A) do for the LSD with regards to various units, and required swings to kill (STK) the LSD. If you can think of any other critters to add, let me know.
<br>Unit STK STK w/C STK w/C+A<br>Hemled H 8 15 30<br>Chraal 15 15 30<br>HGB 5 5 5 (any heal makes 6)<br>Marut 5 8 10<br>
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 9:53 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
The key is that you want a map that restricts movement, espescially from GAS bands. You want to keep the Couatl safe (long term) and keep the HGBs from swinging lots.
This chart should show you though ... if you expect to see HGBs in any quantity things look bad for the LSD. It also shows you that dual Maruts or Marut/Ballista or Marut/Couatl = problematic as well.
Yes, I definitely want a hallway where I can present the LSD an one end, then the Couatl (for SS or ESO). Prefferably a wall at the back, or I can block it with fodder.
Regarding problems with the HGB. The LSD will receive one heal over the course of the match, and so will require 6 hits to kill. After nerfing the HBG requires 14+/19+ to hit, requiring, on average >~13 full attacks to achieve those 6 hits. A single cold breath is almost guaranteed to kill the Orc Wardrummer, and then the HGB require 13+ to save from paralysis, and 12+ to make morale.
Regarding the Marut. With blocker(s) a Couatl can very nearly deal with a Marut single handedly, provided there isn't another Couatl present. This was one reason why I liked the Standard Bearer. Anyway, the Couatl has to go first, and the the damage output and survivability of the Marut drops considerably. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 10:02 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chairman7w
Awesome chart, Gnolaum. Is all this out of your head, or do you have a program to do this?
I'd like to see the accomapnying "STK" for the LSD against those particular units.
It is in my head. I can't really do STK with the LSD as it attacks have different values, so I've added in a Turn To Kill, Turn To Morale. This chart tracks melee damage VS hp only. It does not take into account attack bonus VS AC, nor breath weapons.
<br>Unit TTK TTM STK STK w/C STK w/C+A<br>Hemled H<3 ? 81530<br>Chraal<3 <2151530<br>HGB<5 <3555 (any heal makes 6)<br>Marut<3 ? 5810<br>
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EldritchSoul
Warrior
324 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 11:55 AM |
| this chart is nice, but it should include the likelihood of hitting as well. swings to kill sounds like "how many attacks will it take?" when it's really hits to kill. a chrall, for example has only a 35% chance of hitting with either of it's attacks. a marut, on the other hand, has an 85% chance of hitting. a helmed horror has 65% and 40% the hill giant has 45% and 20%. and none of these include nerfing. how many swings is it going to take? regardless of who's doing the swinging, it will be quite a few rounds before the dragon goes down (without being ganged upon.)
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 04/21/2006 12:22 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by EldritchSoul
this chart is nice, but it should include the likelihood of hitting as well. swings to kill sounds like "how many attacks will it take?" when it's really hits to kill. a chrall, for example has only a 35% chance of hitting with either of it's attacks. a marut, on the other hand, has an 85% chance of hitting. a helmed horror has 65% and 40% the hill giant has 45% and 20%. and none of these include nerfing. how many swings is it going to take? regardless of who's doing the swinging, it will be quite a few rounds before the dragon goes down (without being ganged upon.)
Yeah, Swings to Kill, should really be Hits to kill (goint back to edit). I think that we can work in our own likelyhood of those hits occuring is. | |
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