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Sirohk
Commander
3912 Posts
    
USA
 | | 05/30/2006 8:28 PM |
| As there have been A LOT of Titan (Marut, Kord) + Couatl + Bodyguard + Cleric (CoO, CoDA, ...).
What are all of your expert opinions of how do you beat such a warband? What do you target / what is your first target?
I know it depends on what warband you are using against it, but figure its some sort of beater warband.
IMO, the Cleric is the first key - high bonus to initiative, bonus to morale saves, and healing (with CoDA that is). Take out cleric, then Couatl has greater chance to rout as the second key / target.
[?]
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Eliminator53
Sergeant
628 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 8:33 PM |
| | 3 Death Slaads will hammer (literally ) the group. The key is to be able to get the Bodyguard in all three chaso hammers and to eliminate any healing that they have for the body guard. After that it should be easier to deal w/ the Marut and Couatl. | |
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 8:40 PM |
| It aint easy, that's for sure.
It's the current King of the Metagame, IMHO.
I think the Triple Death Slaad is as effective a solution as there is right now.
Till the next set though, I think that's what we're gonna be seeing in our sleep though, Cuoatl/Marut, or Cuoatl/Kord. Throw in a Ballista, or a Bodyguard... Ugh.
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 9:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sirohk
As there have been A LOT of Titan (Marut, Kord) + Couatl + Bodyguard + Cleric (CoO, CoDA, ...).
What are all of your expert opinions of how do you beat such a warband? What do you target / what is your first target?
I know it depends on what warband you are using against it, but figure its some sort of beater warband.
IMO, the Cleric is the first key - high bonus to initiative, bonus to morale saves, and healing (with CoDA that is). Take out cleric, then Couatl has greater chance to rout as the second key / target.
[?]
If the band is staying bunched together around a Bodyguard, the choice is actually pretty simple. Attack the Bodyguard if the Reinforced 5 doesn't matter. E.g. HGBs, or a 30 dmg attack when the Bodyguard is at 25 hp left. Otherwise attack the Couatl (probably the best target, depends on band and situation) or Kord, maybe the Marut if you've got good to hit, but as long as the Bodyguard's alive, probably aim for a lower ac. Specifically, again, since the Bodyguard's alive, it barely matters that you're attacking the Couatl vs any other figure. Lowest AC is a reasonable way to decide. However, you do want to base the Couatl, since it doubles the band's offense through spells that can't be cast when based.
Don't attack Dol Arrah, the Cleric of Order might be worth it upon occasion, but that's merely a question of whether to attack fodder/support or the main threats. Dol Arrah with the Bodyguard helping out just isn't going to die before his heals run out. Once his heals run out, and the Bodyguard's dead, he's the lowest priority target, so don't waste damage on him, even before that happens, because he'll take a little damage, then divert the rest to the Bodyguard, and heal the bodyguard. Now it's only going to take even longer before you finally get real dmg on Kord/Marut/Couatl.
The only things, though, that really matter at all is making the Couatl take aoos (or keep him from casting snake's swiftnesses, even better) and if possible killing the Bodyguard before it gets healed from Dol Arrah. The whole point of the Bodyguard and healing, though, is that which target you attack really does NOT matter. The lone exception to that is that probably Marut's AC is too high to attack him when the Bodyguard's alive. You'll have to go after the Bodyguard (despite Reinforced) or the Couatl first, up until the Bodyguard is dead, if it's a Marut band.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 05/30/2006 9:44 PM |
| Four Helmed Horrors, a few good rolls, and time.
Or, another Titan+Couatl. That's a pretty common theme.
These days, I've seen Arcane Ballistas do well against the Large titans.
Four Eyes of Gruumsh and at least two successful morale saves can do the trick.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 9:46 PM |
| edit: oops wrong thread somehow.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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Calicles
Sneak
51 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 9:48 PM |
| | IMO, the center of gravity of the Titan/Couatl build is not the titan. By any means necessary, kill the Couatl first and fast. | |
Champion of Sehanine Moonbow | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 05/30/2006 9:52 PM |
| I faced and defeated this band in my qualifier. Here are the three things to look for:
1. Attack and kill the Bodyguard as quickly as possible, either directly or indirectly.
2. Separate the Bodyguard from the other key figures.
3. Attack the Couatl if it becomes separated.
There is no definitive answer, you need to see how things play out. Look for any of these things and then be prepared to take advantage when the opportunity presents itself. But mostly the Bodyguard needs to go first. He has the lowest AC and the fewest hp of the four. Any attacks on the others will go to him so you can kill him indirectly too or force the opponent to not deflect the damage to the Bodyguard. It is not easy.
Also, the band with the Bodyguard needs to stay together so they may have difficulty scoring victory points. Also they will have a tougher time on a wide open map. The Drow outpost is their best map, easy to score victory points and limited access to their backfield. So you can map meta against the band too and bring something open or the teleporter map. | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 10:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chad the DragonLordofAiur
3. Attack the Couatl if it becomes separated.
Not quite sure why you need that conditional part of the statement. [)] Generally, if you can *reach* the Couatl, it's the best target, if it's seperated, that's just a bonus.
Against the band with both Dol Arrah and Bodyguard it's usually just a damage race. You need to do the 115+ dmg to burn through the heals and Bodyguard as quick as possible. One of the only ways to get extra damage is aoos, and the only target likely to move away if based is the Couatl.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 05/30/2006 10:35 PM |
| Or get lucky and stun the snot out of Kord, WFBG and Couatl. [:)] Titan builds shouldn't be as hard as they are seeming to eliminate but right now the stupid Drow Outpost makes beating them harder. If it wasn't allowed the titan builds would have more problems at least from the get go.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 05/31/2006 12:23 AM |
| Death Slaad or Archmage
Archmage is excellent vs Titan builds
Slaadi are great vs Marut and nearly as good vs LG Kord. | |
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SneakyJoeKDB
Sergeant
593 Posts
Utah
| | 05/31/2006 12:22 PM |
| Carefully piloted monks can do pretty well, hopefully you have a successful stun that effects the BG, Kord, or Couatl.
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"Like a thief in the Night"
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 05/31/2006 12:32 PM |
| | I agree with all bands raised to this point. Theres alot of beatdown possible to those Titan bands.. the question comes - how do those bands fair against the rest of the field? | |
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Bluedevyl
Warrior
262 Posts
| | 05/31/2006 12:59 PM |
| | As someone who has played the LG titan bands A LOT, I find that the one figure more than any other I dont want to see is the Arcane Ballista... It screws up a LOT of planning, so much so that I consider using Rikka in the band just to base it and survive the lightning so the rest of my band can do what it does... I usually don't use the bodyguard, myself... I prefer the second hitter... though I tend to use the Marut, and his AC is high enough that unless I'm playing HGBs I'm not TOO worried about him dying outright, and the JA or Rikka always seems to make the critical hit for me right when I need it. | |
Champion of Tanis Half-Elven | |
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Zippy
Underboss
1993 Posts
Whitewater, WI
| | 05/31/2006 1:08 PM |
| One reliable counter that is also versatile toward the rest of the current field is a Rakshasa band.
1) Steal Couatl CFX (Marut hits for 20 dmg instead of 30)
2) Slide (tons of uses)
3) Swarm-n-Slap (especially if you can pull the BSH spell off against a based couatl) | |
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Sulaco
Underboss
1605 Posts
| | 05/31/2006 1:28 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Calicles
IMO, the center of gravity of the Titan/Couatl build is not the titan. By any means necessary, kill the Couatl first and fast.
Yup. The only problem is getting to the Couatl. A smart player will keep it behind the beater.
At the Toronto qualifier I played a EoG, OCx3 band and I faced two different versions of this build. One match I won, one was a squeaker I lost in the last round. The key is hit hard, fast and hard again. You can't fight it with "tech" (god I hate that term) you need to beat the living hell out of it with sword or spell. | |
Champion of the Gelatinous Cube. Nemesis of Gnomes and Dinosaurs.
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 05/31/2006 2:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kgradert13
Death Slaad or Archmage
Archmage is excellent vs Titan builds
Slaadi are great vs Marut and nearly as good vs LG Kord.
The problem with Death Slaad and Archmage bands is that they both have trouble vs Hill Giant Barbarian builds.
Hill Giant Barbarian builds can lose a game to some bad luck and really get pounded by AoM and IG. They're "iffy" vs Marut builds... not optimal.
The most "well rounded" way to beat everything out there is a good combination of LE with Duergar Champs, due to their high attack rolls and conceal checks vs most foes.
Duergar Champs can take down a Marut fairly quickly. Five hits.
With the Bodyguard and a Healer, it's more.
But you can steal the Couatl's effect with a Rakshasa, (countered by a Standard Bearer). This cuts the Marut's damage by 33%, and basing the Couatl cuts it further.
I don't think you'll see a healer, WFB, and standard bearer ALL in a Marut/Couatl band, since it usually includes a CoO or SW instead.
Try something like this.
quote:
Rakshasa LE 41 4 GoL 38/72 R
Duergar Champion LE 33 Ud 35/60 U
Duergar Champion LE 33 Ud 35/60 U
Duergar Champion LE 33 Ud 35/60 U
Duergar Champion LE 33 Ud 35/60 U
Gravehound LE/CE 11 Ar 41/60 C
Gravehound LE/CE 11 Ar 41/60 C
Timber Wolf ANY 5 Wild Dk 27/60 C
Use the Gravehounds to base and stun things like a Standard Bearer, Healer, CoO, Bodyguard, Aramil, base/stun the Couatl.
Also, the Rakshasa can move Champs in with slide if the Marut is swinging from range. And slapping hand provides another chance for a lot of high attack rolls.
I'd feel pretty confident about taking that build against a Marut/Couatl build. Since the Marut is THE source for damage output, can you really risk wasting his attack to kill a Gravehound?
A WFB takes a few hits to kill a Gravehound... or one hit and a Couatl spell.
4x Duergar = potentially, 8x swings per round to kill the Marut.
Say you get 13 swings in 2 rounds of combat (slide factored)... he can't ignore it.
Meanwhile, the gravehounds are tearing into the weak support. (base the CoO first to avoid turning)
You can also cleave with the champs... so, basing something weak AND the Marut can do both.
If you can base the Couatl with 2x Champs, it's pretty much dead.
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/31/2006 2:23 PM |
| | Don't forget the possibility of using the slide to move the bodyguard (or Marut, though you have to pass spell resistance then) out of base contact. That can really save you some time. | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 05/31/2006 2:29 PM |
| | Well, since the topic was how to beat a Marut/Kord + Bodyguard and Couatl, I didn't bother to factor in HGBs. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 05/31/2006 2:37 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kgradert13
Well, since the topic was how to beat a Marut/Kord + Bodyguard and Couatl, I didn't bother to factor in HGBs.
You're right.
I'm only saying that because I LOVE playing Death Slaad and Archmage bands... and it's just about impossible to win vs HGBs... so, if you take one of those to a tournament, you have to hope you run into a lot of Maruts and very few HGBs.
The Duergar version I put forth isn't as good at beating Marut as the builds you suggested, but, it's more solid vs the HGBs due to slide and slapping hand and conceal 6.
Like I said, I only chimed in because I'm frustrated about the AM and Death Slaad performance vs HGBs, which you might have to beat in order to face the Marut. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 05/31/2006 2:54 PM |
| I'm willing to face dual HGB's on the King's Road map. Against an average player, I like my chances even then. Against a good player...not so much.
In fact, I can't think of a single band I'm not willing to face on King's Road, since I was able to beat Triple Horror on it last night.
I am definitly leaning towards Death Slaads for the qualifier though, mainly because map is less of an issue with them. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 05/31/2006 3:19 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kgradert13
I'm willing to face dual HGB's on the King's Road map. Against an average player, I like my chances even then. Against a good player...not so much.
In fact, I can't think of a single band I'm not willing to face on King's Road, since I was able to beat Triple Horror on it last night.
I am definitly leaning towards Death Slaads for the qualifier though, mainly because map is less of an issue with them.
What qualifier are you going to?
And, yeah, it's a good thing that map isn't as much of an issue with triple Slaad, since they barely ever win map initiative. (although vs Dual HGB, it's only a -1 disadvantage)
For a test, I ran a DS band against 2x HGB on Teleport Temple, and, even though I more or less outplayed my opponent (on minor issues, he's reasonably good), there really wasn't much I could do.
What about Archmage + Ryld on King's road? Being able to cast adjacent, win initiative, cast, and move away... frustrating. | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1358 Posts
| | 05/31/2006 4:08 PM |
| | In my testing, I actually found that HGB has to be played very well, and the dice have to be rolling well, in order to have a chance of beating triple Death Slaad. Not many players are using the Teleport Temple, and on most other maps, it's relatively easy to maneuver such that you can concentrate on one giant at a time. Then, you throw everything you have against that giant. | | | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 05/31/2006 7:36 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kgradert13
Death Slaad or Archmage
Archmage is excellent vs Titan builds
Slaadi are great vs Marut and nearly as good vs LG Kord.
Archmage and Slaadi should both do well vs Marut/Couatl/Bodyguard, that one I agree with. Archmage is fairly even vs Marut/Couatl/Sacred Watchers, though, and I think that Slaadi are at a disadvantage. In both cases, the ability of the Sacred Watchers to be the nearest targets is huge.
Likewise, vs Kord/Couatl/Bodygaurd/Dol Arrah, Archmage gets killed unless the banish works, in which case it's the one that dominates. It's 50/50 but it comes down to just one roll. Slaadi should be at a significant disadvantage against the Kord band.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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