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Lord_rock
Underboss
2023 Posts
    
Portland OR
 | | 09/02/2007 8:49 AM |
| A bit newer than some of the other pieces we're examining but was possibly the most anticipated piece out of his set (sans beholder). Combining undeadyness with huge melee beats and a ranged threat you have a versitile piece but so so so fragile much like last weeks piece. Unlike the gold champ the Death Knight costs 80pts!!! Way too much for what you get:
| Lvl/Save | 10 | AC | 23 | Spd | 4 | HP | 65 | | Melee +19/+14 (20 magic) | | Abyssal Blast [] (replaces attack; sight; radius 4; 25 fire damage; DC15)
DR 5
Immune cold, electricity
Spell Resistance |
So here's an interesting comparison for those of you that have been paying attention to my threads... compare the Death Knight to the Gold Champion who we are right now costing 34-37.
Deathknight has
4 higher save
2 less AC
same speed
same HP
+4 att
+5 dmg
Abyssal Blast is same dmg and DC (but better as it is sight)
About same resistances (but death knight is better due to undeadyness)
Spell resistance
So a little different but pretty similar pieces overall. Obviously this guy would win in a straight up fight. The best LE piece for comparison might be the Helmed Horror who has:
Same save
1 less AC
Speed +2 and flight
30 more hp!!!
-3 att
-5 dmg, fire dmg, and no magic
no special AoE
Nearly the same exact resistances sans DR due to being construct (but less construct hate than undead hate)
Not as good of spell res...
So faster and hardier but not as big of a melee threat. The 25 hp difference and the speed set my cap. I can't say the HH is better in every way but the Death Knight should still probably cost more than him.
Looking for a low end lets look at another construct availble in LE/LG, the Maug:
2 less save
2 more speed
10 more HP
-8/-3 att
same dmg but no magic
No AoE
NO DR but same resistances otherwise (once again construct Vs. Undead)
also has spell res
Melee Reach 2
Not that the Maug is completly tier 1 but once again very similar. The att differance is pretty big and the Maug has no AoE but will likely arrive to battle one round ahead of time and use his Melee Reach, two rounds ahead if the death knight stops to use his abysall blast (which he probably will).
So we're realisitically looking in the range of 41- 45 for the Death Knight at the begingin. I'll split it right down the middle with 43 with a nod towards the AoE and big melee bonuses...
Next week: a figure from every faction!!! What will they have in commmon and why would I pick 4 of em??? | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11768 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 09/02/2007 12:18 PM |
| | Lord_rock, one little correction - the Death Knight's AC is actually 2 lower than the Gold Champion's, not 2 higher. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
|
Gohu
Sneak
80 Posts
| | 09/02/2007 12:23 PM |
| Here in our Home Campaign we have recost the Death Khight at 70 Point.
One good fig to campared to it is Lord Soth (uncommanded) who is worth 85 point. Have a lot of same stats and abilities.
I think that 43 point is a bit too low. I would say around 60-65 would be ok. | |
«I didn't came to play, i came to win» - Kamahl, Pit Fighter | |
| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11768 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 09/02/2007 12:35 PM |
| | Gohu, I don't think the Death Knight would be viable at 65 points. That's almost the price of two Duergar Champions, or one Aspect of Kord. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
|
Gohu
Sneak
80 Posts
| | 09/02/2007 12:48 PM |
| Thenameless, Sure the it is costing almost like 2 duergar, but with 2 attack (who will hit more) and 20 damage each AND his Blast AND Fearless ANd higher AC AND 2 immnuity you cannot put him below 50 for sure... well im my humble opinion ;-)
What you think would be the right cost ? or what make you say it is less than 60 ? | |
«I didn't came to play, i came to win» - Kamahl, Pit Fighter | |
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bigfruits
Sneak
58 Posts
| | 09/02/2007 1:36 PM |
| Lord_Rock - helmed horror has 30 more hps, not 25
i think he should be way less than 60pts. compare him to the helmed horror like lord_rock did. HH is also fearless and has more 30 more hit points. the reason the death knight should be less than 60 is because of his speed. i think around 50pts would be very conservative and make him playable but i think he should be a little less.... | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2023 Posts
Portland OR
| | 09/02/2007 1:38 PM |
| fixed ac thing and hp... my bad
... started really low this time to compare with another figure we've recently tried to cost. I stil don't think he's a 60's pt piece but more than where I started to be sure... 65 hp just doesn't do it for me.
but then look at the Helmed Horror comparision... he's not even seeing that much play these days and he's a solid solid piece at 45... The two are vary similar. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11768 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 09/02/2007 1:50 PM |
| Posted By Gohu on 09/02/2007 12:48 PM
What you think would be the right cost ? or what make you say it is less than 60 ?
Somewhere in the mid to maybe high 40's. It's probably somewhere in the Helmed Horror's range, as others have pointed out. If you play it at 65, you will probably get beat almost everytime by tier 1 warbands. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6925 Posts
| | 09/02/2007 4:11 PM |
| I think the death knight could settle in around 48-52pts. This way you could have a death knight and a beholder - the potential for unlimited healing, and even squeeze in a decent commander.
Death Knight x1 52pts
Beholder x1 83pts
Red Hand War Sorcerer x1 35pts
Putting it down to the cost of a HH imo is too low. These are super beat sticks, who's only issue is speed and hps, while their long range threat is big and very real (compared to the HH's slow 5pt ranged attack).
The HH's not a reliable piece because of the nerf it can recieve to its damage capabilities - otherwise it's a rock solid piece. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11768 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 09/02/2007 5:55 PM |
| | ...or a Beholder Lich to keep it from ever being turned. You're right, it's definitely better overall than a Helmed Horror, though still easier to kill. Maybe 50 points. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
|
Lord_rock
Underboss
2023 Posts
Portland OR
| | 09/03/2007 11:52 AM |
| So taking combo's more into consideration we're going 48-50??? 65 hp and speed 4 is still the hurdle to jump...
I don't worry about it gettin turned as it is lvl 10... It also just came to me that abysall blast is a special ability and not a spell so no spell res...
I know there used to be a lot of talk about dmg to cost ratio... how much expected dmg you could get out of a piece before it died... anyone want to lead the charge on this one... seems like you'd get your abysall blast off and at least one att, which will hit, and likely live at least one round due to AC and healing possibilities...
50 sounds good so far...
Death Knight 50
Beholder Lich 64
Cleric Nerull 28
Bat 6
148... what else would you use... tempting to go dual Death Knight but seems squishy... Beholder lich and abysal blast makes them come to you and lots of undead healing possibilites...
How scary would strahd dual death knight be???
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Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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greyhaze
Warlord
6925 Posts
| |
Nobody Important
Sergeant
718 Posts
| | 09/03/2007 6:09 PM |
| I'll need to do some more comparisons but I'm thinking the Death Knight would get by with a 25-30% reduction putting it in the 56-60 point range. I may be could go lower because even 65 fearless hp isn't a lot for that cost and speed 4 may keep it sidelined anyway. To start the comparisons:
vs Helmed Horror (45): The Death Knight lacks the mobility and 30 hp but has a devestating ranged ability and is so much better in melee. Sure the DK's attacks are only +3 better but 20 magic damage is huge compared to the Helmed Horrors 10+5 fire; generally the DK will always be hitting for at least 15 but the HH can be reduced to zero damage output with a fairly simple combination of fire resistance, DR, and an enfeeblement type spell.
vs. Justicator (48): The DK still loses the mobility battle but the melee battle is much closer with the Justictor only a (+2 attack +5 damage) away from matching the DK. The Justicator also has a few (15) more hp and has melee reach but gets slaughtered when you look at all the DK's other abilities and undead traits. Most importantly the Justicator has to worry about morale. The DK is still better.
Noble Salamander (53): The NS is large like the Justicator so that makes comparison a little difficult. Attacks are about even and both have DR but after that they become harder to compare. The NS has 45 more HP but will need them with an AC five points lower, only save 8, and not having fearless. Because it is large but doesn't fly the NS's speed 6 isn't always a big advantage over the DK's speed 4. Melee Reach 3 and Cleave makes the NS a better fighter but the NS is also vulnerable to cold and spells that the DK can at least resist. Each piece also has an area effect with the DK's being superior because of the higher damage, bigger radius, and range of sight targeting.
I'd like to compare it to the Exarch of Tyranny (54) but this is tricky. Their base stats are similiar (EoT is -2 save, +2 speed, +1 AC, and +10 hp) but after that comparisons aren't so clear beyond that both function primarily as beaters. The DK may have an advantage in basic melee but the EoT's abilities make that less certain and don't compare well with the DK.
vs Tordek, Dwarf Champion (59): I can't believe I'm comparing the DK to this LG unique but it may actually be fair. They have the same save and melee attack (granted the dwarf's damage in part electric). Neither is a speed demon although Tordek does get the advantage of speed 6. AC is very similiar with the DK getting a slight advantage pre buffing. As with everything else the DK gets killed in hp trailing Tordek by 35 but tries to make that difference up with being undead. In terms of abilities I may give the DK the advantage although Cleave is great for Tordek and Ghost Touch can be huge when dealing with Incorporeals. Granted that Tordek is unique I think he may be the piece the DK matches up with best.
As points increase we also see hp increase on most other units that could be comprable to the DK. While these pieces may not have the high damage accuracy of the DK many can deal more damage under the right condition. Looking at the other various pieces I'd go with 59 as the lowest cost and may even leave it at 60. Aside from the big problem of speed 4 it does have the prerequisite 65 hp (which is as good as 90 at times) and isn't poor in any other categories. Speed 4 and auto damage hurt by at 60 points I think the DK could have game. | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2023 Posts
Portland OR
| | 09/06/2007 5:14 PM |
| The justicator at 48 seems like one of the best comparision pieces at a glance but, as usual, abysal blast makes almost any comparison to a straight up melee piece inadequate... take that and that the Justicator is probably a few points too high and you no longer have a solid comparison piece at all... too bad too...
The new Salamander, despite differences, might be the best in the end. Glaring glaring glaring differences are:
45hp vs. 5 ac
speed +2 and melee reach 3 vs. speed 4
vulnerable to cold vs. undead invulnerabilities
Swift 15dmg spell Vs. replaces att 25dmg special ability (see speed comparison for more on why these are close)
So still a good comparison piece??? I think at least pt wise yes. They are two very distinct pieces that are going to require some finesse to use optimally. Together they might even be great as dual salamander just doesn't cut the mustard due to dmg, lg bases, and vulnerabilities. Dual death knight will yeild similar results due to speed and HP. I also dislike putting a re priced piece at the exact same cost of another.
We're looking at 50-54 then. i can't see it any higher than that and lean towards 50-52 myself.
Warband building may dictact a higher cost where piece by piece comparison may lack... anyone want to take a stab???
and as a side note: 90 hp is always much much much better than 65...
HBG 46
Salamander 53
Death Knight 52
Dmark Hier 34
GreenSpawn 6
Prisoner 5
Duergar war 4
200pts 8 acts...
Compare to
Ultroloth
Salamander
Duergar
Dmark Hier
Prisoner
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Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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greyhaze
Warlord
6925 Posts
| |
Nobody Important
Sergeant
718 Posts
| | 09/07/2007 11:09 AM |
| Posted By greyhaze on 09/06/2007 8:29 PM
Could your DK warband stand up to 4 LBDs?
If that is the benchmark to recosting figures there are a number of Tier 1 pieces that could also use a price check.
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| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6925 Posts
| | 09/07/2007 11:44 AM |
| | Ok, so in all fairness, what is the benchmark? I thought we wanted to make them competitive in todays environment, not comparible to what used to be "decent". | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
|
Nobody Important
Sergeant
718 Posts
| | 09/07/2007 9:22 PM |
| | I've maintained that recosting should be done to make a piece decent but not necessarily competitive. The big problem with recosting a piece to be competitive in todays environment is that as soon as you do that the environment changes. If you made both the Arcane Archer and more importantly the Centaur Hero so much cheaper they become competitive they would start warping the metagame you're looking at so it is no longer relavent. | |
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| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11768 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 09/08/2007 12:52 AM |
| Unfortunately, decent is not good enough. I think that recosting should push the edge, or we are just wasting the time of people who play competitively. Sure, my friends and I have fun themed games once in a while, but nothing gets the juices flowing like a competitive environment. I'd like a piece like the Arcane Archer to be aggressively costed, so that if its warband gets its map and the right match-up (a la Ballista), it almost always wins. And by the same token, it should still be reasonably costed so that it should almost always lose when it draws a bad match-up (say invisible beaters).
The strong, new pieces tend to warp the meta-game, so re-costed pieces should have some impact as well, or they'll just keep collecting dust. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
|
Lord_rock
Underboss
2023 Posts
Portland OR
| | 09/09/2007 7:43 AM |
| The intent was always to make them competitive... but not auto includes.
4 blacks is tough for anyone!!! Who would you Dragonmark protect in this one??? probably the HBG or Sally. If the death knight can abysal blast 2 and the salamander can burst 1-2 and not get flanked your probably al right as neither of your big hitters are going to miss and the blackgaurd can enter melee himself as soon as sally moral checks.
3 dragon CE warbands aren't going anywhere any time soon however so it is a benchmark of sorts.
I might actually get some playtesting done on some of this this week if I can get my computer up and running properly or drive to WA. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6925 Posts
| | 09/10/2007 6:56 AM |
| | Ok, then I would cost the DK at 48pts. It's aggressive, but doesn't mean it's an auto-include. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
| 
Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3528 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 09/11/2007 5:18 AM |
| | If you price the Death Knight much below 60, I think you'd see a lot of Beholder/dual DK or Aspect of Nerull/dual DK. The ability to continually "heal" the Death Knight would make up for its lack of hit points. These would be extremely dangerous bands, despite the fact that the Beholder is considered a chancy piece, and the Aspect of Nerull is also overcosted. Would that be a bad thing? I don't know. I'd have to playtest to see just how tough those combos might be. But 48 seems way too aggressive, to me. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6925 Posts
| | 09/11/2007 6:45 AM |
| The most common philosophy about facing low hps with heal - deal autodamage and drop them so they can't be healed. In the case of the LBD's x3 acid lines will more than likely hit all 3 if not at least 2 of the 3 slow moving DKs and Beholder, which is before they move in for 20dmg/swing attacks. The DK player will have to get lucky with forcing morale or nailing the LBDs with a decent beholder ray. I think it would be chancey or close. Imagine a double DK and Beholder warband being at the top of the food chain for once. mmmm...
DK 48
DK 48
Beholder 83
21pts of whatever. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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