LordOfBlades
Sneak
57 Posts
    
 | | 12/16/2007 3:01 AM |
| I have only recently started to play D&D miniatures and have only 1 warband so far (solar, shield guardian, dhod, mialee, timber wolf, 3x man-at-arms)
However I am looking to add a second warband to my arsenal, and I want it to be one of the CE dragon warbands. But so far I am broken between the following 2:
Werewolf Lord
Large Black Dragon
Large shadow Dragon
Thrall fo Blackrazor
Orc Warriorx4
and
Ryld Argith
Large Black Dragon x3
Hyena
Orc Warriorx3
Both ot these warbands seem similar, but I don't feel expereinced enough to tell the more subtle differences(in effectiveness) between them.
So I would be grateful for any advice.
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Mandavar
Sneak
63 Posts
Germany
| | 12/16/2007 4:07 AM |
| I played almost the same warbands.
1)
Werewolf Lord
LShD
LBD
Thrall
Orc Warrior x4
2)
Ryld
LBD x2
Thrall
Hunting Hyena
Orc Warrior x3
Your warbands both have 3 large bases and make it a bit more difficult to handle but if you're a good skirmisher that should be no problem at all.
both warbands are very powerful and competitive.
I prefer the second warband because of Ryld and his high initiative roll.
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Sirohk
Commander
3930 Posts
USA
| | 12/16/2007 4:27 AM |
| Posted By LordOfBlades on 12/16/2007 3:01 AM
Werewolf Lord
Large Black Dragon
Large shadow Dragon
Thrall fo Blackrazor
Orc Warriorx4
and
Ryld Argith
Large Black Dragon x3
Hyena
Orc Warriorx3
Both of these are very solid warbands.Â
The first one is the one that won the World Championship at GenCon this past year. But that was on fixed maps and there was not a Carprascious Copper Dragon lurking around. Still, 4 very fast beaters, two are potentailly Fearless, and other abilities make a solid warband.Â
The second warband is also very strong with the 3 Breath Weapons. And they can target eachother when facing invisible warbands. And Ryld makes getting your map that much more likely (although IMO this warband works well on most maps). I have seen this warband do well against the most of the current meta (at least the meta pre DoD). Its toughest matchup would be Ultroforge with a Acid Protected FGFP and the Ultroloth Immune to acid.Â
So, both are solid choices to go with, but if I had to pick one, I would go probably go with your first build.Â
Good luck.Â
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Pedro
Commander
3926 Posts
Czech Republic
| | 12/16/2007 5:10 AM |
| Posted By Sirohk on 12/16/2007 4:27 AM Posted By LordOfBlades on 12/16/2007 3:01 AM
Werewolf Lord
Large Black Dragon
Large shadow Dragon
Thrall fo Blackrazor
Orc Warriorx4
and
Ryld Argith
Large Black Dragon x3
Hyena
Orc Warriorx3
Both of these are very solid warbands. The first one is the one that won the World Championship at GenCon this past year. But that was on fixed maps and there was not a Carprascious Copper Dragon lurking around. Still, 4 very fast beaters, two are potentailly Fearless, and other abilities make a solid warband. The second warband is also very strong with the 3 Breath Weapons. And they can target eachother when facing invisible warbands. And Ryld makes getting your map that much more likely (although IMO this warband works well on most maps). I have seen this warband do well against the most of the current meta (at least the meta pre DoD). Its toughest matchup would be Ultroforge with a Acid Protected FGFP and the Ultroloth Immune to acid. So, both are solid choices to go with, but if I had to pick one, I would go probably go with your first build. Good luck.Â
The same here. Another good reason is that the second one will cost you an arm and a leg 
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Mandavar
Sneak
63 Posts
Germany
| | 12/16/2007 7:08 AM |
| Posted By Sirohk on 12/16/2007 4:27 AM
[...]Its toughest matchup would be Ultroforge with a Acid Protected FGFP and the Ultroloth Immune to acid.[...]
thats what i first thought too. a good way to win against ultroforge is to avoid the FGFP and to just eliminate the fodder with those breath weapons (lines). if you managed to kill something you only have to flee and gain some VPs and after 1h playtime you win by points. altough such a game is boring its effective for tournament play :) and i am telling you from my own experience ;)
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 12/16/2007 7:42 AM |
| | Triple black smirnoff is he best choice for me.You can replace a black for a shadow for more tech (and much more deadly depending the map and enemy,s warband).Triple LShD is tier 1 too.The new CE cappricious copper warbands are very interesting too (with only one copper dragon and black and sahdow dragons).The white dragon is not so good is tier 2.I strongly dislike the thrall blackrazor | |
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LordOfBlades
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 12/16/2007 8:00 AM |
| Thank you for your answers. Really apprecaite any advice I can get on this topic. The way I see it so far:
First warband:
Pros: More versatile breath weapons ( not fully reliant on acid); superior melee power (wwl is a much tougher beater than Ryld and LSD is somewhat superior to LBD in the right circumstances)
Cons: Slower, 2 units are quite circumstantial(LSD depends on flakning and shadowjumps to be able to bring it's full potential to bear on the enemy and Thrall depends on killing fodder, which, witht he current evolution of the meta like quint warbands and fear of CCD tehnds to be somewhat less feasible than in the past), low initiative
Second warband:
Pros: Faster, easier targeting of breath weapons and from better ranges, less situation dependant, much better initiative and commander rating.
Cons: Less staying power in melee, breath weapon useless against acid immune enemies.
Is there anything I missed?
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11730 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 12/16/2007 7:21 PM |
| | I think the first warband can handle more things effectively. LBD's need almost perfect play against Ultroforge. Also, I've always found Ryld really easy to kill whenever I've played against a warband with him in it. Against certain warbands, getting a jump with your LShD at the very start of the game can almost win it for you right there. | |
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 12/16/2007 7:30 PM |
| | In addition to what Thenameless said, unless you already have 3 black dragons already they are going to be tough and expensive to get. Also with no wardrummer the first band is better for making MC checks (or rather not having to). | | | |
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LordOfBlades
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 12/16/2007 11:40 PM |
| Thanks everyone for your insight. I think I will go with the first warband for a number of reasons:
more versatile and (I think) solid overall
much cheaper and easier to get(I would be saving about 50 USD compared to the triple large blacks)
even if the changes in 2.0 would make this band unplayable or uneffective, I would be left with 4 different pieces, so the chances of getting something out of them are far better than it I only had 3 LBDs.
One ore questin however: what do you think would be the best map for this warband?
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Damien the Bloodfeaster
Sergeant
885 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 12/17/2007 5:33 PM |
| Try Blue Dragon Lair (the one that came with the Gargantuan Blue Dragon Icon). Â The map is larger than most, which means you have more room for hit and run manevuers. There's a central victory area you can reach, but scattered ones you can also strike out for. There are a lot of walls for shadow jumping for the Shadow Dragon, yet it is open enough that the walls won't seriously hinder the maneuverability of multiple dragons. | | | |
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Dordledum
Commander
3398 Posts
Netherlands
| | 12/19/2007 7:44 AM |
| I'd add a capricious copper to the warband, playing black, shadow, and copper.
D. | |
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LordOfBlades
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 12/19/2007 10:37 AM |
| I thought about adding a capricious copper to the mix, but it is too expensive(too many points). Werewolf Lord, Large Black, Large Shadow and Capricous Copper is 203 points, so such a warband would require a downgrading the commander to something along the lines of Tiefling Captain.
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 12/20/2007 3:27 AM |
| | I report cappricious +blACK+shadow taking a tournament here by defeating couatl+marut with a lot of bodyguards warband in kings road map.Maybe not so good as black and shadow but definitively a tier 1 piece | |
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Dordledum
Commander
3398 Posts
Netherlands
| | 12/20/2007 4:00 AM |
| Posted By iluvxtina on 12/20/2007 3:27 AM
I report cappricious +blACK+shadow taking a tournament here by defeating couatl+marut with a lot of bodyguards warband in kings road map.Maybe not so good as black and shadow but definitively a tier 1 piece
It's my main fear in an upcoming constructed tournament. I stubbornly refuse to play CE (with a minor outing to Tri-Scorrows), because it's not my playing style.
LG Dwarves or LE Quint seems to do fine vs multiple dragons (just make high saves vs the 3 breath weapons, and clobber the dragons to death afterwards).
CG or CE warbands generally don't survive versus tri-Dragons, saves are too low and especially in CG low-hp are an issue, CE low AC vs 3 attacks per dragon don't help either.
just my humble opinion.
D. | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 12/20/2007 5:48 AM |
| | Dordledum: Against dragons (smirnoff,Triple Sh,etc,etc...) the best choice is ultroforge.Dragonmark casts inmune acid to FGFP and ultrolth is inmune acid so you will not have problems with breath weapons.And the dragons cannot hit your very high AC most of times.If you think you,ll face a lot of dragon warbands (about the 45% of challengers like here) try this.SWarm can give you decent results too but you,ll need a ton of luck. | |
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Dordledum
Commander
3398 Posts
Netherlands
| | 12/20/2007 6:20 AM |
| @ Christina: I know you're right, in that Ulroforge is very strong indeed. I simply don't like to play the FGFP or any other titan-build. With my luck the titans miss their +15 Morale saves much too often.
D. | |
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Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and the Orog Fighter! | |
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LordOfBlades
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 12/20/2007 7:40 AM |
| I am also not a very big fan of ultroforge. I am aware it is a really strong band(although I have yet to see one played at full potential), but it is too slow for my liking. I like to be teh one setting the pace of the game, and with ultroforge seems hard to do so. Aslo, the slow speed of its keypeices makes recovering after a bad move much harder.
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Damien the Bloodfeaster
Sergeant
885 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 12/20/2007 9:09 AM |
| Another anti-dragon option is Solar + Shield Guardian(s). The Solar is immune acid, and you can keep the Guardians well back to avoid breath weapons. Hope your slaying arrow kills a dragon outright.
Most of the anti-CE dragon builds feature titans because a single titan can generally withstand multiple breath weapons, while a band of four hitters cannot, unless said hitters have an immunity to the breath attacks. Two of the four you're most likely to see are acid, though, and about the only effective acid-immune beaters I'm aware of are...those selfsame dragons. Couatl is a possibility, though it's useless vs. Shadow Dragons and again seems to work better with titan builds than multi-hitters. Still, something might be done with dwarves and a Couatl in LG, preferably on a map with few walls like King's Road or Hellspike. | | | |
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6879 Posts
| | 12/20/2007 9:47 AM |
| | I wonder if Mezzoloths were meant to deal with LBDs, but at 44pts and 1 attack they just stink. Perhpas Pitfiend +2 Mezzos... still stinks, but against LBDs they don't. | |
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Damien the Bloodfeaster
Sergeant
885 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 12/20/2007 11:06 AM |
| | Aramil has been a traditional dragon nerfer...at least until the Shadow Dragons came out. Now with the threat of one of them popping in and killing/routing him, he's become less viable. Still, he might be worth including. | | | |
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LordOfBlades
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 12/20/2007 12:04 PM |
| Indeed,Solar+Shield Guardian+Dragonmarked Heir of Deneith is a very good anti-dragon option. Solar is immune to acid by default, and Guardian and Heir may cast protection from energy on themselves. Still, if you do not play carefully, you will soon find yourself out-activated and forced to chase some F10 units from VA to VA with your speed 6 army.
The solar can do it alone(F8), but this opens up Guardian and DHoD for ganks. still, if you manage to land a slaying arrow on a dragon it's pretty much your match....with the point advantage you can just camp in a VA and force the opponent come to you.
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 12/20/2007 3:05 PM |
| | I like Solar warbands a lot but it must be approached carefully due to its huge cost.Dragonmark is a must but I strongly dislike the guardian.Sincerelly I do not find it woth of its cost.In order to take the match you depend of slaying arrow and dragons warbands used to have wardrummer making it useless.A dangerous choice that solar.I continue prefering ultroforge or Sally warbands. | |
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LordOfBlades
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 12/21/2007 12:53 AM |
| Actually, from my expereince at least, not so many dragon warbands include wardrummers. If you want to have 3 dragons and a good commander
 (like the bands I posted earlier in this thread) you simply have not enough points left to include a wardrummer.
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Dordledum
Commander
3398 Posts
Netherlands
| | 12/21/2007 1:37 AM |
| Posted By LordOfBlades on 12/21/2007 12:53 AM
Actually, from my expereince at least, not so many dragon warbands include wardrummers. If you want to have 3 dragons and a good commander
 (like the bands I posted earlier in this thread) you simply have not enough points left to include a wardrummer.
Something I've faced a lot is along these lines, with practically fearless dragons:
Tiefling Capt
CCD
LShD
LBlackD
Wardrummer
Orc Warrior
Warrior Skel x2
Trust me, it's tough, I hate it.
D. | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3930 Posts
USA
| | 12/21/2007 3:35 AM |
| Posted By Dordledum on 12/21/2007 1:37 AM Posted By LordOfBlades on 12/21/2007 12:53 AM
Actually, from my expereince at least, not so many dragon warbands include wardrummers. If you want to have 3 dragons and a good commander
 (like the bands I posted earlier in this thread) you simply have not enough points left to include a wardrummer.
Something I've faced a lot is along these lines, with practically fearless dragons: Tiefling Capt CCD LShD LBlackD Wardrummer Orc Warrior Warrior Skel x2 Trust me, it's tough, I hate it. D.
I have seen this warband (at least the core) played a number of times. I agree, a very tough warband. Two Acid line BW, a lot of HP, the LShD can Shadowjump and kill fodder once the CCD is on a VP area, and as pointed out nearly Fearless MC's.Â
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 12/21/2007 4:10 AM |
| | Lord of blades: I disagree with you in this point.People used to add wardrummer to their dragon warbands because you can meke them much more stronger by a ridiculously low cost.I can only tell about my experience: here, at least 50% of CE warbands run wardrummer.Sure | |
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TheChuck
Warrior
333 Posts
Mississippi, USA
| | 12/21/2007 7:31 AM |
| I still think that my personal favorite dragon build that I've ever used was the White Dragon Swarm
Tiefling Captain
Orc Wardrummer
Large White Dragon x5
The biggest issue was making sure that any of the dragons that might get damaged were under command. So long as they were and the drummer was banging out resistance they were saving at +16. I love this warband, primarily for the look on people faces when I lay it on the table, but it's also very powerful so long as you are careful. Against other dragons it's really tough to win with though, the Shadow Dragon can jump in and route or kill the Tiefling and you have some huge problems.
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Dordledum
Commander
3398 Posts
Netherlands
| | 12/21/2007 7:49 AM |
| Posted By TheChuck on 12/21/2007 7:31 AM
I still think that my personal favorite dragon build that I've ever used was the White Dragon Swarm
Tiefling Captain
Orc Wardrummer
Large White Dragon x5
The biggest issue was making sure that any of the dragons that might get damaged were under command. So long as they were and the drummer was banging out resistance they were saving at +16. I love this warband, primarily for the look on people faces when I lay it on the table, but it's also very powerful so long as you are careful. Against other dragons it's really tough to win with though, the Shadow Dragon can jump in and route or kill the Tiefling and you have some huge problems.
That's 5 large bases! Did you fit in any start area?
D.
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TheChuck
Warrior
333 Posts
Mississippi, USA
| | 12/21/2007 10:09 AM |
| | I always had to split them up. Their F12 speed was of great assistance in keeping them under command. | |
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11730 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 12/21/2007 7:59 PM |
| Posted By iluvxtina on 12/21/2007 4:10 AM
Lord of blades: I disagree with you in this point.People used to add wardrummer to their dragon warbands because you can meke them much more stronger by a ridiculously low cost.I can only tell about my experience: here, at least 50% of CE warbands run wardrummer.Sure
Yes, you are right. It might just be a matter of play style, but replacing either the Werewolf Lord or Ryld Argith with the Tiefling Captain and an Orc Wardrummer is, in my opinion, every bit as strong. | |
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LordOfBlades
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 12/21/2007 11:17 PM |
| It didn't seemed that way to me, but guess you can't know for sure until you have seen the warband in action. And having gotten several opinins from people who did, maybe the wardrummer version of the warband is worth some more thinking about.
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11730 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 12/22/2007 12:15 AM |
| When two CE dragon-based warbands face each other, both sides will be making a lot of saves - morale checks and against breath weapons. When one side has the Wardrummer + Tiefling combination, I believe it has the advantage against the one with either the WWL or Ryld.
When facing something like Ultroforge, a Wardrummer can still be very useful, but in a more offensive role. A timely switch to intimidating drumbeat drops the mighty Forgepriest's morale save from a solid +15, to a much shakier +11.
When the enemy relies heavily on a strong commander effect, the Wardrummer can shut it down with countersong.
The Tiefling Captain gives a very high commander rating of 4 in the CE faction for an extremely low cost. The CE dragons all have low attack bonuses, but fairly high damage potential - needing to roll high numbers to connect against high enemy AC's. The Tiefling's commander effect is one of the best in the game for his dragon followers. Doubling the rate of critical hits (with the above mentioned low attack bonuses & high damage numbers) when the dragons are attacking three times per round, really raises their average damage output.
Again, there's nothing wrong with either the WWL or Ryld, but the above combination should not be discounted. It also gives you an extra activation. | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 12/22/2007 4:03 AM |
| | Thenameless ,I really like your explanation.It is very complete and I absolutely agree with you in every point.That is the same I think | |
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LordOfBlades
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 12/22/2007 10:07 AM |
| Thank you, Thenameless for your explanation. You make some pretty valid points
My doubts about tiefling captain refer mainly to its suvivability. It has only 16 AC and 30 hp. This means that against a high maneuvrability warband (such as Storm and Shadowdancers, Kord+Couatl, another Dragon warband) it might go down pretty fast. especially if you want him to be close enough to the action to provide the Commander Effect
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11730 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 12/22/2007 3:09 PM |
| You will very surely lose your Tiefling Captain early against a Storm/Dancer warband. Nothing will stop them. But, here's what you do. Keep the Tiefling away from a wall so that the Dancers have to attack him when not next to one. The strength of the Dancers is their defensive roll, and you cannot use this ability against breath weapons. After the Dancers attack your Tiefling, breathe on them and base them. They will die to three attacks each from CE dragons, and can't escape easily because you have based them and they are not next to a wall. The above is what you do in a bad scenario. In a good scenario, you're running at least two Shadowdragons, and you win the very first initiative (50/50 chance with Storm vs Tiefling). If the two Shadowdragons get the jump on the Storm warband, it's "good game and shake hands".
Couatl-Kord is a completely different animal. If you're running Large Blacks, it takes more work because your acid breath is resisted. The idea is to isolate the Couatl by basing it with all of your dragons if possible. This will punish your opponent (and probably kill the Couatl) if he wants to get those valuable snake's swiftnesses cast on Kord. If you're running Shadowdragons the game is much easier. The breath weapons are not resisted, and your cones will usually tag a lot of enemies because Couatl-Kord bands have to play tight. With your opponent's titan swinging only once a round (two with snake's swiftness), he will invariably miss the odd conceal 6 check, and once this happens it spells doom for your opponent. Keep Tiefling and Wardrummer way back and separated from each other. If Kord uses his speed 10 and over-extends to chase and kill one of them, sacrifice that piece, and kill the rest of his warband with your dragons - bad points trade for your opponent. Again, bodyguarding is great, but it doesn't work against breath weapons.
Against another dragon warband, as explained above the Wardrummer can win you the game. Keep the Tiefling and Wardrummer far apart so your opponent's breath weapons can't get both. Against each other's breath weapons, your warband will pass most of the time (resistance drumbeat), and your opponent's warband will pass much less than that. When he kills either your Tiefling or your Wardrummer, you still have morale save of +4. When you rout or kill his WWL or Ryld (remember timely switch to intimidating drumbeat), your opponent is in big trouble.
The general theme of all the above plays is to use the Tiefling as bait. "Go ahead and kill my Tiefling. I still have save +4 from my Wardrummer, and now I'm going to decimate the rest of your warband with my dragons." | |
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