IHawk
Underboss
1054 Posts
    
Lisle, Illinois
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IHawk
Underboss
1054 Posts
Lisle, Illinois
| | 03/28/2005 12:05 AM |
| Sorc at the very least should get use magic device as a class skill or be given a bonus to that particular skill based off of class level,+1/4 levels or something.
I agree with you on the not changing the class otherwise.
just my thought | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 03/28/2005 10:26 AM |
| The sorcerer is my favorite class.
However, I have decided to revise it slightly. Tell me if you find this to be game breaking:
As the standard sorcerer with the following changes:
-4 skill points per level
-Diplomacy and Intimidate added to class skills
-Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 1st level
-Bonus feats according to the wizard's progression (5th, 10th, 15th, 20th)- feats must be metamagic or draconic feats.
I find that this reflects the sorcerer's inherent abilities better, the bonus skill points reflect less time spent learning magic, and the bonus feats give an incentive to not take a PrC (which there is little incentive against otherwise).
I considered UMD or other skills, but the sorcerer's who image is as an untrained caster. Cross class skills work just fine here. Even UMD with its insanely high checks is do-able cross class for the sorcerer.
I'd love feedback if anyone wants to offer it. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2711 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 03/28/2005 10:54 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey:
As the standard sorcerer with the following changes:
-4 skill points per level
-Diplomacy and Intimidate added to class skills
-Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 1st level
-Bonus feats according to the wizard's progression (5th, 10th, 15th, 20th)- feats must be metamagic or draconic feats.
The only addition here that seems over the top is the bonus feats on the Wizards progression. I think that ones a game breaker. | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 03/28/2005 11:10 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
The only addition here that seems over the top is the bonus feats on the Wizards progression. I think that ones a game breaker.
That's my biggest worry, but at the same time, I want to give some incentive for a character to stay as a sorcerer as opposed to munching out in a PrC. It's just too tempting to PrC otherwise.
I may remove the feats and give some kind of draconic progression in their place, i.e. a few minor abilities to add some flavor.
Satsujin, you originally were putting together a revised sorcerer: did it go anywhere or did you just scrap it due to draconic feats? | |
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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 03/28/2005 11:41 AM |
| | As written, the only reason to stay a sorceror over going to a PrC that grants spellcasting levels is if you want familiar advancement...whoop-dee-do. I think bonus feats ala the Wizard progression is a good idea. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2711 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 03/28/2005 12:43 PM |
| With Eschew Materials and the feat progression of Wizards a Sorcerer will end up with as many feats as a Wizard, it just seems like too much to me.
You're absolutely right though, outside of familiar advancement, there's little reason to stay a sorc. So how do we tie the sorc to his class progression without over-powering him? The most obvious way is to give a feat or class ability that progresses with level. The Wiz feat progression is laid out, and balanced, for the Wiz. but I don't think it's balanced for the sorc.
I haven't looked at the Draconic feats, but if they're powerful they could be toned down a bit and given as class abilities. We could also give EM as a bonus feat at a higher level (2or3) maybe and then start a bonus feat progression similar to the Wizards.(If I made these types of changes I don't think I'd change the skill points or class list of skills)
Another thing that could be done is to make the class itself more appealing. Some of which has been mentioned already. Raising the skill points, changing HD to d6, increasing class list to include a few skills that use Char, changing BAB, and altering good vs. bad saves could also entice someone to stay with this class instead of going with a PrC. | |
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Satsujin Kingyo
Underboss
1247 Posts
| | 03/28/2005 12:56 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
The only addition here that seems over the top is the bonus feats on the Wizards progression. I think that ones a game breaker.
That's my biggest worry, but at the same time, I want to give some incentive for a character to stay as a sorcerer as opposed to munching out in a PrC. It's just too tempting to PrC otherwise.
I may remove the feats and give some kind of draconic progression in their place, i.e. a few minor abilities to add some flavor.
Satsujin, you originally were putting together a revised sorcerer: did it go anywhere or did you just scrap it due to draconic feats?
Well actually, I kinda got lazy and figured nobody gave a rat's arse anyway. Guess I was wrong. Methinks I'll restart the project. Give me two weeks to playtest it allright? | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 03/28/2005 1:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
I haven't looked at the Draconic feats, but if they're powerful they could be toned down a bit and given as class abilities. We could also give EM as a bonus feat at a higher level (2or3) maybe and then start a bonus feat progression similar to the Wizards.(If I made these types of changes I don't think I'd change the skill points or class list of skills)
Some of the draconic feats are powerful, others are pretty underwhelming. Draconic Breath (change spell energy into a breath weapon) and Draconic Legacy (get 3 bonus spells, usually 1st, 3rd and 5th level) are the real heavy hitters. Others, like Draconic Power or Draconic Claw are neat, but won't come into play very often, especially when compared to the other good sorcerer feats (metamagic, spell focus, etc.).
Converting these feats into abilities is no different than offering bonus feats except that you restrict the choices PCs get to make. That's why I'm leaning towards giving bonus feats at 5, 10, 15, and 20. The only problem with that is that it requires characters to take Draconic Heritage at 1st level. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2711 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 03/28/2005 1:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey:
Converting these feats into abilities is no different than offering bonus feats except that you restrict the choices PCs get to make. That's why I'm leaning towards giving bonus feats at 5, 10, 15, and 20. The only problem with that is that it requires characters to take Draconic Heritage at 1st level.
This is exactly why I suggested it. I think taking the choice away is one of the balancing mechanisms. I was thinking along the line of how Monks and Druids are built they get lots of abilities, but little in the way of choice. Quite a few PrCs seem to work this way as well. | |
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Lead Moderator
LCS
Underboss
1896 Posts
| | 03/28/2005 5:27 PM |
| An option would be to limit the bonus feats that can be selected to the "sudden" metamagic feats from the Miniatures Handbook (and potentially the Draconic feats, if you allow those).
(The "sudden" versions of the metamagic feats that are in the Miniatures Handbook, and possibly reprinted elsewhere at this point, allow a caster to apply a specific metamagic feat to a spell once per day without increasing the slot level or increasing the casting time. Most of these feats don't require the standard version as a prerequisite, except for Sudden Quicken which requires that the caster have the standard Quicken feat already.)
Another similar option, that I have been thinking about, is giving Sorcerers a pool of metamagic "levels" that they can apply to their spells spontaneously instead of bonus feats. For example, at 6th level they might have 1 level of spontaneous metamagic, 2 at 9th, 3 at 12th, 4 at 15th, 6 at 18th, and 8 at 20th. A 10th level sorcerer would have 2 levels, which he could use each day to spontaneously apply any metamagic feat that increases the slot of a spell by two slot levels, or use them seperately to apply metamagic feats which increase the cost by one slot level to two spells.
I like this approach since it requires that sorcerers spend their feats from advancement on metamagic effects if they wish to learn a variety of them, but at the same time allows a sorcerer who has spent those feats to gain multiple metamagic effects to apply them as he/she pleases (within a certain limit per day) in addition to the normal use that costs additional casting time and a higher spell slot. | | | |
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The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 03/28/2005 6:06 PM |
| | I have retooled the Sorcerers in my campaigns to function like Wilders. Any interest in that? | | | |
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Kiirnodel
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 03/28/2005 6:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jai
I have retooled the Sorcerers in my campaigns to function like Wilders. Any interest in that?
O_O That is a good idea. Can you post what you use? or send it to me by email? I think the Wilder and Sorcerer are both open to the public.
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MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 03/28/2005 6:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
I want to give some incentive for a character to stay as a sorcerer as opposed to munching out in a PrC. It's just too tempting to PrC otherwise.
Can you give examples of PrCs that are no-brainers for sorcerers? There aren't that many with full spell-casting progression, and those that have it generally have very steep entrance requirements (e.g. a lot of wasted feats, spells or skills).
3.5e Wizards publications only, thanks. [:)]
Cheers! | |
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The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 03/28/2005 6:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kiirnodel
quote:
Originally posted by jai
I have retooled the Sorcerers in my campaigns to function like Wilders. Any interest in that?
O_O That is a good idea. Can you post what you use? or send it to me by email? I think the Wilder and Sorcerer are both open to the public.
So far it is chicken scratch as i had a player playtesting it for me to give me an idea ... i will try to *formalize* it tonight, and post it either later or tomorrow for ya. | | | |
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Kiirnodel
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 03/28/2005 6:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jai
quote:
Originally posted by Kiirnodel
quote:
Originally posted by jai
I have retooled the Sorcerers in my campaigns to function like Wilders. Any interest in that?
O_O That is a good idea. Can you post what you use? or send it to me by email? I think the Wilder and Sorcerer are both open to the public.
So far it is chicken scratch as i had a player playtesting it for me to give me an idea ... i will try to *formalize* it tonight, and post it either later or tomorrow for ya.
Thank you! Just wondering what you modified. | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 03/28/2005 6:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
I want to give some incentive for a character to stay as a sorcerer as opposed to munching out in a PrC. It's just too tempting to PrC otherwise.
Can you give examples of PrCs that are no-brainers for sorcerers? There aren't that many with full spell-casting progression, and those that have it generally have very steep entrance requirements (e.g. a lot of wasted feats, spells or skills).
3.5e Wizards publications only, thanks. [:)]
Cheers!
Hey Merric,
I think I see where you're going with this and would be delighted if you would share your thoughts on sorcerers and PrCs. I think you've given the 3.5e literature a more careful read than I have.
One that immediately comes to mind is the Shadowcraft Mage from Races of Stone. It requires hide as a cross class skill and some spells that I personally don't find difficult to work into a sorcerer's spell selection. Bluff as well, but all my sorcerers take ranks in that. 3 illusions: IMO, Illusions, especially shadow conj/evoc are fantastic spells in the hands of a sorcerer. Invisibility, Major Image, and Shadow Conjuration are on nearly every sorcerer list I've ever generated. Finally Spell Focus, illusion which you'll want anyway given the number of shadow spells you're casting with this class.
It's only a 5 level PrC, but gives you some really nice bonuses that you weren't picking up otherwise (4 skill points / level so you can easily recover anything you sacrificed on Hide), stronger shadow spells, free metamagic on illusions, concealment in most situations, etc. I find those bonuses to far exceed what you're getting as a sorcerer at minimal cost.
I believe Elemental Savant is another good choice for sorcerers. All of the requirements are do-able for a sorcerer and fit well with the theme of an enemental caster. The ranks in knowledge, planes was even lowered, making the class more accessable.
Archmage is another one that allows access for somewhat minimal pain. Skill Focus Spellcraft is the only requirement I find to be a real sacrifice. 2 spell focus feats are a minor penalty. Additionally, the loss of a few spell slots is less painful for the sorcerer than they are for the wizard.
Anyway Merric and others, I'd love to hear your thoughts!
[Edit- corrected some errors on Shadowcraft mage and added Elemental Savant] | |
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 03/28/2005 7:30 PM |
| The best revision I've seen to sorcs is one that a friend did in meatspace. All it was was adding Eschew Materials at first (they have inborn power, so no uncosted MCs) and a changing their spellcasting progression very subtly. At each level BEFORE they gain a new spell known, they gain one spell per day slot, for use with metamagic. So at 5th level, they gain one use of a 3rd level slot, even though they don't know any 3rd level spells.
What do you think? | |
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The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 03/28/2005 11:06 PM |
| Testament, i like that. I still haven't been able to do a *formal* write up of my sorcerer, but here is the run down.
HD: d6
Skill Points: 4
They work with a mana pool (psi pool). Use the same # known, max level, and points as a wilder.
<br>Sorcerer Level: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20<br># Spells Known: 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 8 9 9 10 10 11<br>Max Spell Level: 1 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 8 9 9 9<br>Mana Points: 2 6 11 17 25 35 46 58 72 88 106 126 147 170 195 221 250 280 311 343<br><br>Spell Level: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9<br>Mana Pt Cost: * 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 15 17<br>*If sorcerer has 1/2 or more of their mana pool, cantrips cost 0pts, otherwise they cost 1pt.<br>
1st Level: Cantrips, No Components
2nd Level: Mana Surge
5th Level: Energy Substitution
10th Level: Energy Admixture
15th Level: Energy Substitution
20th Level: Energy Admixture
Cantrips: Sorcerer starts play with 3 cantrips that he knows in addition to his 1st level spell.
No Components: Sorcerers do not need to use material components for spells that normally require them (as long as the cost is less than 25gp). If the component is 25 gp or more, the Sorcerer pays XP equal to 1/25th the gp value of the component.
Mana Surge: A sorcerer may choose to raise the caster level of a spell he is casting by spending more mana. The cost is 1 point per caster level raised. He cannot raise the caster level more than 1/2 his current caster level. The price for this raise is that the caster takes subdual damage equal to twice the number of levels added. Example: A 2nd level caster can raise a spell one level (taking 2 subdual damage) while a 4th level caster can raise it two (taking 4 subdual damage).
Energy Substitution: This ability works like the feat. Choose one energy type at 5th level, and a second one at 15th level.
Energy Admixture: This ability works like the feat. Must be an energy type selected for Energy Substitution ability. Use adds 8 points to the mana cost of the spell, and causes 16 subdual damage, in addition to any points/damage accrued by increasing the spell's level via Mana Surge. | | | |
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Kiirnodel
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 03/29/2005 2:19 AM |
| | That actually looks pretty nice, the HP and SP also help to make ita 20 level class. [:)] Good job, Jai. | |
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The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 03/29/2005 1:27 PM |
| Some things to keep in mind:
--The d6 hit die is to help counter the subdual damage from Mana Surge.
--I highly suggest that if you let them learn metamagic feats, you make sure the point cost is 2 per level increased *and* they take subdual as per Mana Surge (ex: Energy Admixture).
--The Energy Substitution allows them to not be completely up a creek in regards to encountering creatures resistant to their only spells. Mix that with Mana Surge, and they turn into very flexible casters.
--Use Table 2-1 in the Expanded Psionics Book to determine bonus mana points per level (based on Cha). If you don't have it, then i suggest figuring out how many bonus spells they would normally get per level, then using the conversion of spell level to points i included give them bonus mana points.
--Nearly infinite Cantrips i find akin to the Psi Reserves that psionicists can have. Allowing you to create feats that allow powers to be used based on mana pool reserves. For instance, i have a feat* that lets the cantrips work with 1/4 or more of the mana pool vs. 1/2.
--I personally give all sorcerers Use Magic Device as class skill, regardless of standard or my variant.
*I originally made the mana pool reserve a power at first that got better over time. After looking at this further though, i feel that i have already given Sorcerers enough of a boost: Mana Surge = Heighten Spell, Energy Sub x2, Energy Ad x2 ... that makes 5 feats vs. the 4 that wizards get. No Components i consider a 1st level feat akin to Scribe Scroll for wizards.
Anyway, hope that helps explain a bit more. | | | |
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2313 Posts
Toronto
| | 03/29/2005 2:34 PM |
| | Jai, Nice right it does make for a class that isn't so quick to change over to a PrC. But now I feel the unlimited cantrips is a bit much, unless other caster classes are also getting it. | |
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The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 03/29/2005 4:28 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon28
Jai, Nice right it does make for a class that isn't so quick to change over to a PrC. But now I feel the unlimited cantrips is a bit much, unless other caster classes are also getting it.
That is something i threw in there as an afterthought. I can see how it could be abused, i suppose, but i wouldn't consider it game breaking. It is only infinite above 1/2 mana pool, you could change this to say only when mana pool is full (actually not a bad idea).
As DM you can step in and change it to have cantrips be 1/2 or 1 point always. The cantrips that are attack spells, for instance, are all less damage than a dagger, so infinite dagger attacks i don't see as game breaking (especially with low level wizards having a horrible attack bonus).
You could perhaps limit the number of cantrips usable to 3 per day or 3 + Cha Mod per day before they begin to cost 1 point. You could simply say that they can only use each cantrip once an hour ... ultimately the cantrip being a power issue can be dealt with simply by a discussion between player(s) and DM as to what they consider appropriate.
Having now said this, i am considering tweaking it again for my campaign ... Free cantrips while mana pool is full, then 1 point after that. Perhaps even 2 subdual damage if you need to use a cantrip while out of mana. <<-- This opens up a whole new ability as a feat i might write up ... but i will test it out before i propose it. [)] | | | |
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Grim
Sergeant
482 Posts
| | 03/29/2005 4:48 PM |
| | This character takes 1 level of warmage though and those cantrips go through the roof damage wise (assuming a fair Intelligence score.) In my game the warmage has a 20 INT and does 1d3+5 with his acid splashes and rays of frost. I shudder to contemplate infinite uses. | |
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Kiirnodel
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 03/29/2005 4:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Grim
This character takes 1 level of warmage though and those cantrips go through the roof damage wise (assuming a fair Intelligence score.) In my game the warmage has a 20 INT and does 1d3+5 with his acid splashes and rays of frost. I shudder to contemplate infinite uses.
Warmage edge applies only to warmage spells and would not cross over. | |
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The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 03/29/2005 5:15 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Grim
This character takes 1 level of warmage though and those cantrips go through the roof damage wise (assuming a fair Intelligence score.) In my game the warmage has a 20 INT and does 1d3+5 with his acid splashes and rays of frost. I shudder to contemplate infinite uses.
How is that different than a fighter with Str 20? Both still have to roll an attack ...
I do not know about warmage all that much (only glanced at it once), but i believe Kiirnodel solved that issue with his comment. | | | |
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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 03/30/2005 12:34 PM |
| | Yes, Warmage has been errata'd so that the Edge only applies to spells cast as a Warmage, not those cast as members of another class. | |
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Azghorra
Sneak
54 Posts
| | 04/02/2005 2:42 PM |
| A note about cantrips.
First, hello, I'm Azghorra, friend of Jai, singer of tales, brewer of poisons.
I think that, as is, unlimited cantrips isn't too much of am overbalancing advantage. True, it can be abused, but when you think about when a sorcerer moves to using them, the unlimitedness shouldn't come up too often. | |
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Grim
Sergeant
482 Posts
| | 04/02/2005 4:17 PM |
| | Cantrips come up more often than you think. Imagine a Warmage with unlimited cantrips. Still a good idea for a class? | |
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Azghorra
Sneak
54 Posts
| | 04/03/2005 1:03 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kiirnodel
Warmage edge applies only to warmage spells and would not cross over.
Though, as stated earlier, warmage abilities do not cross over into any other spellcasting class. Additionally, you wouldn't expect the standard Sorcerer's cantrips to stack with that of a wizard's, would you? | |
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Kiirnodel
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 04/03/2005 4:04 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Grim
Cantrips come up more often than you think. Imagine a Warmage with unlimited cantrips. Still a good idea for a class?
Yeah, a warmage with unlimited cantrips would be pretty nice, though as covered earlier we're giving it to the sorcerer so it's ray of frost deals 1-3 damage not 4-6 or what not. | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 04/06/2005 9:51 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
The sorcerer is my favorite class.
However, I have decided to revise it slightly. Tell me if you find this to be game breaking:
As the standard sorcerer with the following changes:
-4 skill points per level
-Diplomacy and Intimidate added to class skills
-Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at 1st level
-Bonus feats according to the wizard's progression (5th, 10th, 15th, 20th)- feats must be metamagic or draconic feats.
I find that this reflects the sorcerer's inherent abilities better, the bonus skill points reflect less time spent learning magic, and the bonus feats give an incentive to not take a PrC (which there is little incentive against otherwise).
I considered UMD or other skills, but the sorcerer's who image is as an untrained caster. Cross class skills work just fine here. Even UMD with its insanely high checks is do-able cross class for the sorcerer.
After considerable thought, I've decided to not go with most of the changes I outlined above.
Giving them 4 sp/level is excessive as a character can max out all class skills pretty easily with that many skill points. Diplomacy and Intimidate both work cross class and a sorcerer can add a skill to his list by taking Draconic Heritage. Bonus feats at every 5 levels is a little too good.
Instead I just give my sorcerers Eschew Materials for free at 1st level and give them exclusive access to the Draconic Feat chain.
I'd really like to give them something extra at mid and high levels, but I just haven't been able to come up with something that fits all sorcerers and isn't game breaking. I may still offer 2 extra feats (at say 6th and 11th or something), but no more than that.
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Phoenix
Underboss
1930 Posts
| | 04/07/2005 8:38 PM |
| | I really like the idea of letting sorcerors start with Eschew Materials. I think sorcerors are fairly well balanced. Eschew Materials doesn't add a lot of power to the sorceror, but it does seem to add a lot of flavor. If I can remember it I'm sure I'll give it to future sorcerors in any campaigns I run. | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 04/08/2005 2:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix
I really like the idea of letting sorcerors start with Eschew Materials. I think sorcerors are fairly well balanced. Eschew Materials doesn't add a lot of power to the sorceror, but it does seem to add a lot of flavor. If I can remember it I'm sure I'll give it to future sorcerors in any campaigns I run.
I couldn't agree more.
I'm considering even going the Monte Cook route and doing away with gp cost components in exchange for an XP cost on sorcerers (I belive it's 1/25 the gp cost). It's still a penalty, it enhances flavor, and it hardly breaks the game. | |
Have: Cat; Want: Storm Giant
Champion of Anything Dragonlance
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