The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
12441 Posts
    
The G Spot
 | | 07/26/2005 8:03 AM |
| | recovered topic 6456 | |
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Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
12441 Posts
The G Spot
| | 07/26/2005 8:03 AM |
| | Sounds more like (at least based on that book quote) undead should have some ability to fight on even below 0 hp. Kinda like a boar can do. Keeps fighting until it reaches -10 hp, then keels over "dead" | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2129 Posts
| | 07/26/2005 9:15 AM |
| | the monsters in game of thrones are more than mere zombies or skeletons. more on the power scale of ring wraiths | |
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Retired Tank
Vulturedoodle
Sergeant
791 Posts
| | 07/26/2005 9:26 AM |
| Any to-hit bonus based on this notion would need to be balanced against an AC penalty. But I don't see that there's anything wrong with the idea.
Regards,
Steve F. | |
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Avatar of the Irrelevant
Diomedes
Commander
3173 Posts
| | 07/26/2005 9:36 AM |
| quote:
Any to-hit bonus based on this notion would need to be balanced against an AC penalty. But I don't see that there's anything wrong with the idea.
Yeah, I agree, drop their ac and give them +4 str or something like that. Of course this would only apply to mindless undead (and at that, just the fellas in your game) :D
-Diomedes | |
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kyrin
Commander
3168 Posts
| | 07/26/2005 10:18 AM |
| Well, their toughness is partially reflected in their 12-sided hit dice, so going to -10 is not necessary. They've got more hit point potential than when they were alive.
Now, one could essentially make them always berserk, with a +4 bonus to strength, and a -2 penalty to AC. OR you could remove any bonuses to AC from DEX and apply to attack and damage.
The big thing that I do is say only 1 point of damage from piercing weapons (plus magical bonuses and stuff like energy damage, but NOT strength bonuses). I think that reflects their immunity to trauma nicely: you've got to fill them with arrows (or bullets or whatever) before they will fall. I guess you could even make them IMMUNE to piercing damage, to be extra evil.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
12441 Posts
The G Spot
| | 07/26/2005 10:39 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kyrin
Well, their toughness is partially reflected in their 12-sided hit dice, so going to -10 is not necessary. They've got more hit point potential than when they were alive.
The key word there is "potential" You can still role 3's, and 4's and 5's with a 12 sided die, plus they don't get the benefit of a higher con score.
Actually, the lack of constitution can hurt them. If we're talking a fighter with a d10 for hp and a con score of 14 (+2) then hp point potential per level is 3-12. If said fighter has a con of 18 (+4), then it ramps up to 5-14!
If that fighter gets killed and then raised as a zombie, it loses that +2 (or +4) for con and then its hp potential is only 1-12.
Same high end, but lower low end.
Not sure if I agree with no con score for undead. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM | |
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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 07/26/2005 11:03 AM |
| | You also have to remember that undead are immune to crits and sneak attacks and whatnot. That's why the zombie keeps coming after you after you've decapitated him... | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Avatar of the Irrelevant
Diomedes
Commander
3173 Posts
| | 07/26/2005 11:55 AM |
| quote:
Maybe an anti-expertise feat. Call it something like "I don't care" and it can only be taken by things that feel no pain or don't fear death, etc. (and not as a character thing ... "My Barbarian doesn't fear death" but truly feels no pain).
Take a penalty to AC, increase your to-hit. Bingo.
Sorry, my memory is failing me again. Can a critter without an int score take a feat? And if they have an int score, don't they actually fear death/pain? Just wondering.
-Diomedes | |
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kyrin
Commander
3168 Posts
| | 07/26/2005 12:58 PM |
| Creatures without INT scores cannot take *skills.* They can have feats a'plenty.
I am reluctant to simply give undead more HP. I would prefer to amp up their damage resistance. More of a horror effect that way.[}:)]
Now the Damage Reverse Expertise / "I Don't Care" feat is a nice one. Good for constructs and oozes as well, eh?
JIM
aka kyrin | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 07/26/2005 1:05 PM |
| quote:
Sounds more like (at least based on that book quote) undead should have some ability to fight on even below 0 hp. Kinda like a boar can do. Keeps fighting until it reaches -10 hp, then keels over "dead"
Actually Undead are automatically destroyed when they hit 0 HP (since I always get questions... it is in the Monster Manual 3.5 page 317.) Skeletons and zombies are meant to be low level monsters. Fodder for 1st- 3rd level adventurers. Put them against a bunch of commoners and experts and they mop the floor up with them.
If you want tough undead... there are plenty of them out there. You can always add a template to the creature prior to turning them undead. "Holy @#$% what is that 12 armed dwarf skeleton with wings?"
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Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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Iksander
Underboss
1010 Posts
| | 07/26/2005 5:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
The key word there is "potential" You can still role 3's, and 4's and 5's with a 12 sided die, plus they don't get the benefit of a higher con score.
I always assume averages on HD for monsters. That's what the MM does.
I like the idea of a feat with a penalty to AC and a bonus to Damage. | |
Bite me. | |
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Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 07/27/2005 1:48 AM |
| Iksander, just give them the Rage special ability. [:)]
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 3:24 AM |
| | ...but wouldn't giving something with no CON score Rage be pointless? Their nonexistent CON wouldn't be affected; they'd just get an AC penalty. | |
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glauron
Underboss
1379 Posts
Sydney, Australia
| | 07/27/2005 4:21 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Iksander
quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
The key word there is "potential" You can still role 3's, and 4's and 5's with a 12 sided die, plus they don't get the benefit of a higher con score.
I always assume averages on HD for monsters. That's what the MM does.
I like the idea of a feat with a penalty to AC and a bonus to Damage.
I also assume averages with one useful exception. I give every 'enemy' dead or living the max HP for its first hit dice. Why? Just a house rule because we play a high level campaign and the PCs generally have high ability scores. I get annoyed when a L1 human fighter Str 18 and power attack and cleave, wades through my skellies with his morningstar.
As it is, the useless beggars rarely hit even a lightly armored L1 character. I like the idea of bonus to hit, it's even more radical than max HP for that first hit dice, which at higher levels means bugger all. | |
I have always been here. | |
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Iksander
Underboss
1010 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 4:21 AM |
| Rage doesn't really equate since you'd get a damage bonus as well.
Imagine a regular combat. The two opponents dance around, testing each other's defenses, looking for openings and trying to create them, whilst defending against same.
But Mr. Zombie, he just comes straight at you. None of your manuavers mean jack to him. So suddenly, half your repetoire is made redundant. All you have is ability to hit. Avoiding getting hit is going to be much harder against something that doesn't give a fig if you chop off its arm. | |
Bite me. | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
12441 Posts
The G Spot
| | 07/27/2005 6:39 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Iksander
quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
The key word there is "potential" You can still role 3's, and 4's and 5's with a 12 sided die, plus they don't get the benefit of a higher con score.
I always assume averages on HD for monsters. That's what the MM does.
I like the idea of a feat with a penalty to AC and a bonus to Damage.
I don't like using averages all the time. Leads to sameness. Got to shake it up a little by giving some creatures more than the average. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM | |
|
kyrin
Commander
3168 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 7:57 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
...but wouldn't giving something with no CON score Rage be pointless? Their nonexistent CON wouldn't be affected; they'd just get an AC penalty.
But STR goes up too, which increases damage and "to hit."
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 07/27/2005 9:42 PM |
| OK< mathematically, using average numbers from the dice, the d12 of an undead causes them to lose hit points if they were running off a d10 or better before and had any con bonus, and they lose if they had a good con and a d8 too. Not right in my opinion, Undead should be freaking sponges that jsut keep on coming.
Undead use their CHA score for anything that would use CON before, so I gave all my undead the "Unholy Toughness" ability from MM3, where they calculate bonus HP from their CHA modifier.
As for making undead nastier in a fight, just change the BAB of the Undead type to 3/4 or gods forbid, 1 for 1. Just watch the CRs carefully, since this will make many Undead into absolute HORRORS in a fight, especially anything that deals ability damage/drain or Energy Drain. And incoporeal undead have an easy enough time hitting already, the last thing they need is to become even more accurate. | |
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Iksander
Underboss
1010 Posts
| | 07/28/2005 5:24 AM |
| How does giving them bonus HP for CHA make any sense? I mean... you're saying that it makes sense that they should be 'sponges' and yet you use a nonsensical method to make them so... see what I'm saying?
And 'mathematically speaking', I don't quite see your logic that undead are worse off. It would depend on the Con score. For a d12 average to be inferior to a d10 average with a Con bonus, the Con score would have to be +1. For it to be inferior to a d8, the Con bonus would have to be +2.
Even then, I don't see how it's relevant. What does a creature's Con score have to do with how many hit points they have in undeath? If they were healthy and hale in life, well... they're dead now, so it's kinda irrelevant.
Anyway, most undead have damage immunities or resistances. Zombies get resistance to bludgeoning and skellies get resistance to slashing and piercing IIRC. That effectively increases their hit points significantly.
But an incorporeal undead should also get a bonus to hit since it only has to worry about ghost touch weapons!
I think the best way to represent this is the aforementioned feat.
FEARLESS [Undead]
Undead who fear no pain or injury, gain a bonus to hit when facing creatures who do.
Prerequisite: Undead
Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full-attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your Armour Class and add the same number (+5 or less) to your attack rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to Armour Class and attacks last until your next turn. | |
Bite me. | |
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Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 07/28/2005 6:00 AM |
| The feat you want actually exists in the XPH (and in the SRD):
RECKLESS OFFENSE [GENERAL]
You can shift your focus from defense to offense.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When you use the attack action or full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of –4 to your Armor Class and add a +2 bonus on your melee attack roll. The bonus on attack rolls and penalty to Armor Class last until the beginning of your next turn.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 07/28/2005 6:04 AM |
| The Unholy Toughness special ability (add HD * Cha mod to hp) represents the willpower that holds the creature on this plane of existence - or the force of the evil powers likewise. As Cha also fuels its special abilities (and deflection bonus for incorporeal), it's quite a useful ability.
Reducing a undead creature's Cha is very hard, though. I know Bestow Curse does it, but non mind-affecting things that affect Cha? Pretty rare.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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Iksander
Underboss
1010 Posts
| | 07/28/2005 6:47 AM |
| Ah, good-o, Reckless Offense it is then.
For the Charisma thing, I wouldn't see it as so bad for an incorporeal undead, but for anything else, it seems a thin justification. | |
Bite me. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 07/28/2005 11:45 AM |
| Adding the CHA modifier to the HP is fine for the "intellegent undead" but skeletons and zombies all have a CHA of 1. I really think that the damage reduction does a good job of leveling them out as a good cannon fodder threat to a low level party. If you want tougher skeletons, use bugbear skeletons, the boost to str should make them a bit more threatening to most low level adventurers. Or if you want to really be mean, take the stats of your parties fighters and use them to make a bunch of skeletons. A fellow advantureing band who got wiped and turned into undead.
If you want a scary skeleton for a high level party, use a dragon skeleton, a T-Rex, a Stone Giant, or any other really big mean monster. It all is realavent. I like the feat of reckless combatant but really, why bother?? Skeletons and zombies are already patheticlly easy to hit. A 15 AC is the highest listed AC for a skeleton. I am a big fan of mindless undead, both when I run a game and when I play a wizard with a penchant for necromancy, (I carried nearly 6,000 in Onyx arround) but they are cannon fodder.
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"Are you not entertained?"
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 07/28/2005 7:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Iksander
Ah, good-o, Reckless Offense it is then.
For the Charisma thing, I wouldn't see it as so bad for an incorporeal undead, but for anything else, it seems a thin justification.
Not so much - consider the force of will of a Vampire, for instance.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 07/28/2005 8:16 PM |
| | You could always just revise the undead type in your game to a higher attack table (move them from 1/2 to 3/4 or something.) | |
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