| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
| | Author | Messages | |
Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
    
 | |
Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 08/03/2005 10:50 AM |
| | No, I wouldn't allow it to stack. Personally, I wouldn't even allow that particular option (the laminated steel) at all. It doesn't even make sense to me that the substance itself could increase the critical threat range -- seems to me that you'd need serrated edges or something for that. | |
My H/W list is not current...
Trade Reference List
OLD Trade references (191) | |
|
griffrat
Commander
3506 Posts
| | 08/03/2005 10:53 AM |
|
Interesting, I would allow it. But this is me and there are tough encounters for my players and they need all the stuff they can lay hand on. Also, I tend to throw a lot of undead and constructs at the groups (immune to crits) for the meat and potatoes of the adventure. So when the boss, say a demon, comes into play the crits are a welcome blessing. As the group(s) understand that if crits are happening then it means the session is going to be really tough and perhaps someone’s character is not coming out alive, and the fight is on like Donkey Kong!! But this is me.
| |
Ambassador of FUN!!! | |
|
warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 08/03/2005 10:53 AM |
| I'd rule that they do stack, but in the other order, that is, you double the threat range, then add one, getting a threat ranged of 16-20x2. It might not make a bundle of sense from a logical point of view, but on the other hand, just say that the bonus can't be doubled, since it is inherent to the weapon and is not effected by personal skill or magical enhancement. Plus it's not fair somehow for a greatsword to be able to have the same threat range as a rapier.
What book is this from? | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
12441 Posts
The G Spot
| | 08/03/2005 11:11 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
No, I wouldn't allow it to stack. Personally, I wouldn't even allow that particular option (the laminated steel) at all. It doesn't even make sense to me that the substance itself could increase the critical threat range -- seems to me that you'd need serrated edges or something for that.
Plus it allows players to circumvent having to either take the feat or get it magically enhanced. I wouldn't allow it. The reason why Keen edge and improved critical do not stack in 3.5 is because it can lead to a ridiculous and imbalanced critical threat range. I know, I did it with a character in 3.0. IIRC, he rolled a threat on 14-20. [:0] | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM | |
|
BigBC
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 08/03/2005 11:14 AM |
| | I think it's from a book called 'More Ultimate Equipment' or something like that. I believe it's from Mongoose Publishing. I don't have it handy right now. It just doesn't say anything either way about the effect stacking with Improved Critical or keen edge. | |
Complete: Ha, De, Ar, GoL, Ab, Dk, Af, Ud, WD, DQ, BW
Favorite Supplier
"Indecision may, or may not be my problem." - Jimmy Buffet
Champion of the Gibberling | |
|
ilarue
Underboss
1259 Posts
| | 08/03/2005 11:28 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by BigBC
My DM has yet to let me know what she will allow on this, but I thought I'd ask how DMs here would rule on this. We all know (or should at least) that keen weapons and improved critical feat do not stack. You either have keen on a weapon or have the improved crit with it's type. I found a type of material in a D20 source book called laminated steel. It costs 900 gp over the standard, takes longer to make, and can only be used with slashing weapons. The benefits are a +1 circumstance bonus to damage and the threat range is increased by one. Thus, a greatsword (my preferred weapon) would have 18-20 x2 to threaten a crit. If I then have the improved critical feat on that weapon, it should increase to 15-20 x2 (like a rapier with either keen or improved crit). My belief is that this should be allowed since the threat is inherent to the weapon, not an effect of a spell, but the feat says that it doesn't improve a weapon that 'this effect doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell)'. So, I guess my question is, if the material itself is the reason, and not some type of magic effect, would you allow it? Whatever my DM says, I won't argue. Just wanted some input.
Because of the bold section I would rule that it doesn't stack, since that's what it says--doesn't stack with any other effect--not just any magical effects | |
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes--Who will gaurd the guards?
Champion of the Commoner Mob Leader | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
12441 Posts
The G Spot
| | 08/03/2005 11:28 AM |
| | You can be sure that if the book doesn't specifically disallow it, your player will INSIST on having you allow it. Players are like that. [:D] | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM | |
|
Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 08/03/2005 11:32 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
No, I wouldn't allow it to stack. Personally, I wouldn't even allow that particular option (the laminated steel) at all. It doesn't even make sense to me that the substance itself could increase the critical threat range -- seems to me that you'd need serrated edges or something for that.
Plus it allows players to circumvent having to either take the feat or get it magically enhanced. I wouldn't allow it. The reason why Keen edge and improved critical do not stack in 3.5 is because it can lead to a ridiculous and imbalanced critical threat range. I know, I did it with a character in 3.0. IIRC, he rolled a threat on 14-20. [:0]
There's an article by Sean K. Reynolds on his site, expressing his reasons that Keen and Improved Crit should stack, from a game balance point of view. I found his arguments very convincing. | |
"Why am I all sticky and naked? Did I miss something fun?"
-Vindicated champion of Tordek, Dwarf Champion | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
12441 Posts
The G Spot
| | 08/03/2005 2:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fry
quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
No, I wouldn't allow it to stack. Personally, I wouldn't even allow that particular option (the laminated steel) at all. It doesn't even make sense to me that the substance itself could increase the critical threat range -- seems to me that you'd need serrated edges or something for that.
Plus it allows players to circumvent having to either take the feat or get it magically enhanced. I wouldn't allow it. The reason why Keen edge and improved critical do not stack in 3.5 is because it can lead to a ridiculous and imbalanced critical threat range. I know, I did it with a character in 3.0. IIRC, he rolled a threat on 14-20. [:0]
There's an article by Sean K. Reynolds on his site, expressing his reasons that Keen and Improved Crit should stack, from a game balance point of view. I found his arguments very convincing.
Interesting. I wonder why it was changed for 3.5?????? | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM | |
|
Captain Harlock
Sergeant
450 Posts
| | 08/03/2005 2:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
No, I wouldn't allow it to stack. Personally, I wouldn't even allow that particular option (the laminated steel) at all. It doesn't even make sense to me that the substance itself could increase the critical threat range -- seems to me that you'd need serrated edges or something for that.
From what it sounds like, it sounds like they are trying to giving a bonus to the way that the katana and other japanese swords were made. I am not sure I would allow it if it was generally available, it would need to be from a special source and extremely rare.
| |
Dan Cooper
For there is surely nothing so beautiful than the sight of a lone man facing single-handedly half a ton of angry pot roast.
You will all go directly to your respective vahallas, Go directly, do not pass go do not collect two hundred dollars
| |
|
Slapdragon
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 08/03/2005 3:09 PM |
| I would not allow it because it requires a reference to a non-standard work (one not on my list of accepted works). The reason is: there are literally hundreds of works, and my gamier players will spend hours pouring through them for uber capabilities. As a GM, I have a set number of works I use as gospel, and I can't keep up with all of the special works, especially since you can get many as downloads.
I have had (once) a player turn up with over 50 hp at first level using a combination of nonstandard works. Each was reasonable on its own, but combined, they were unbalancing.
That said, in my campaign, it is possible to buy a keen weapon. Keen is not (again in my world) a magical ability, but a representation of superior workmanship. Thus the +1 from some special metal would not stack, as the workmanship in the keen weapon would exceed it. It might stand on its own, but never combined. | |
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt. | |
|
Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 08/03/2005 3:25 PM |
| I am going to go into left field and say yes, I'll allow it. Since I allow keen and improved crit stack anyways, it's not a big deal to me.
For one:
Wizards can do massive damage with little spells.
Fighters swing swords and once in a while they can do massive damage. It's not fair to the fighter when only 25% of the time they can do massive damage while the wizard does it 75% of the time.
For two:
What I allow for my players I do for my monsters. Ever wonder why there's a bunch of keen improved critical people out there? No? A sword can be magically stronger with a higher threat ratio. A person can be trained to have a higher threat ratio. It stacks, two different sources.
For three:
I don't let some arbitrary pansy tell me how to run my game. If I want haste to be casting two spells a round, fine! I do that! If I want Sorcerers able to use metamagic feats as normal and quicken spell automatically quickens a spell, fine! I do that! My game isn't broken, and I see no need to fix it. So I would say, YES! Material making things have higher threat range should stack too!
| |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai.  I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
|
Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 08/03/2005 3:31 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
Interesting. I wonder why it was changed for 3.5??????
Because people whined about unbalance.. They should whine about a maximized empowered fireball with a DC of 60 from a 20th level wizard/archmage.
Oh yeah, they nerfed the Archmage a little.. Now it's DC of 40-50, and the rogue is the only one that won't take 90 damage from a fireball, they'll take 45. Oh wait, yet again, how can the DC get so high? Very easy, feats, high intelligence, and a crown of intelligence. Yeah, DC is still so easy to get up there.. And all the fighter does is swing a really big sword hoping to do more than 20 damage a hit. | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
|
Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 08/03/2005 3:56 PM |
| | The reasoning I heard is that people were complaining about criticals not being "special" when you can threaten on a roll of 12-20. From a game balance standpoint, you actually lose average damage going rapier/keen/improved crit rather than greatsword/weapon spec/greater weapon spec. | |
"Why am I all sticky and naked? Did I miss something fun?"
-Vindicated champion of Tordek, Dwarf Champion | |
|
Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 08/03/2005 4:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fry
The reasoning I heard is that people were complaining about criticals not being "special" when you can threaten on a roll of 12-20. From a game balance standpoint, you actually lose average damage going rapier/keen/improved crit rather than greatsword/weapon spec/greater weapon spec.
Well just because you roll a 12, doesn't mean you hit.. ;)
Say the guy has a +15 to hit. He rolls a 12, 27.. The thing's AC is 30. Too low, so it's a miss. And just because you hit, you still need to confirm the threat, which is not very good at times.. :D | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
|
Slapdragon
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 08/03/2005 4:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi
I don't let some arbitrary pansy tell me how to run my game.
#1 Pansy is a perjorative and you imply here that each and every contributor to this thread is a pansy. This is rather rude. especiall since #2 you need neither read this thread, nor take any advice from this thread, and since you did not start the thread, you have no place to be insulting. If you think I and the rest of the people on this board are pansies for replying to a poster who requested how we do things, then you are something else that I am willing to call you if you choose to e-mail me, but I am unwilling to sully this board with.
No matter how you meant it, perhaps an apology and a modification of your post are in order. | |
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt. | |
|
Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 08/03/2005 4:23 PM |
| quote:
Because people whined about unbalance.. They should whine about a maximized empowered fireball with a DC of 60 from a 20th level wizard/archmage.
Oh yeah, they nerfed the Archmage a little.. Now it's DC of 40-50, and the rogue is the only one that won't take 90 damage from a fireball, they'll take 45. Oh wait, yet again, how can the DC get so high? Very easy, feats, high intelligence, and a crown of intelligence. Yeah, DC is still so easy to get up there.. And all the fighter does is swing a really big sword hoping to do more than 20 damage a hit.
Yeah a maxamized empoered fireball is going to lay a serious hurt on some people when it is cast by a 20th level wizard... it should it is effectively a 7th level spell. Disintigration from the same wizard would do 40d6.
In our main game I play a fighter/ranger/tempest who specializes in fighting with two long swords. I have 4 attacks a round and threaten on almost every round (that isn't even taking into account the boots of speed.) I can deal a sufficient amount of damage to an opponent. (Weapon focus LS, Weapon spec LS, Imp Crit LS, Oversized off hand weapon, Two Wpn fighting, Improved 2wpn fighting) Our wizard is our heavy hitter in the group and we need her to lay down the fire, acid, cold, lighting, whatever a good percentage of the time. But the wizard has less than 1/2 the hit points and much poorer fort and refl saves. It is all a trade off.
As far as the original question, I would not allow it. Not so much because of the high threat renage weapons, but because of the weapons like the Great Axe wich only threatens on a 20, but has a x3 multiplier. If you allow things to stack... you could have a threat range of 18-20 with a x3 multiplier doing d12. If you want a two handed weapon that threatens on an 18-20 get a Falcion.
| |
"Are you not entertained?" 
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
| |
|
Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 08/03/2005 4:27 PM |
| I'm talking about the game designers who decides that things are so broken without putting real thought into it and completely nerfing everything in existance to cute and fluffy. :D
Yeah, I'm sorry I didn't specify who I thought was a pansy. It's that it's assumed when I'm slamming 3.5, I am slamming Sean for screwing with things because he doesn't agree with things how they should work. I mean, here goes, normality:
20th level fighter: 23 strength with ability boosts.. could have a belt to raise strength a few points.. All standard feats and magic stuff. Really big sword does 10-20 damage a hit, and occasionally does 40-50 on criticals.
Wizard at 20th level boosts intelligence way up, takes all the feats needed, and gets a few magical items, everything's standard. DCs are around the 40 range and spells hit for 50-200 damage a smack, and most are area effects! There's something wrong with this.. Wizards are godly, and the fighter only swings a really big sword. :D | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
|
Slapdragon
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 08/03/2005 4:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi
I'm talking about the game designers who decides that things are so broken without putting real thought into it and completely nerfing everything in existance to cute and fluffy. :D
Yeah, I'm sorry I didn't specify who I thought was a pansy. It's that it's assumed when I'm slamming 3.5, I am slamming Sean for screwing with things because he doesn't agree with things how they should work. I mean, here goes, normality:
20th level fighter: 23 strength with ability boosts.. could have a belt to raise strength a few points.. All standard feats and magic stuff. Really big sword does 10-20 damage a hit, and occasionally does 40-50 on criticals.
Wizard at 20th level boosts intelligence way up, takes all the feats needed, and gets a few magical items, everything's standard. DCs are around the 40 range and spells hit for 50-200 damage a smack, and most are area effects! There's something wrong with this.. Wizards are godly, and the fighter only swings a really big sword. :D
I understand, thank you for the clarification.
I actually think that the balance is better than you say because you are not figuring the damage that fighter can do per turn, and the fact that when the Magic User runs out of gas throwing his biggest and baddest, the fighter is still attacking four times. Leave the criticals out. Assume a 20th Level fighter (18 str) with no special feats who hits with 1/2 of his attacks using a long sword or long bow and does average damage. Make it a vanilla +4 long sword. That fighter is doing a reliable 24 points of damage per turn for as long as he is in the fight. This is not even ubering him up. If he has the sword, he does not run out of gas like the MU, and he does not suddenly fail an attack if he gets hit. And his attacks are not affected by saving throws, only by the rare damage reduction (and the MU faces that also in magic resistance).
Considering that same fighter can have a weapon that does considerably more than 24hp of damage per turn, you can see it is the balance of the hare and the turtle.
Besides, if all the MU has in his kit is a dozen blasters and no other support spells, the team is hosed. No good MU in a game with any amount of role playing will stock any more than half their spell list with offensive spells. | |
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt. | |
|
Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 08/03/2005 5:18 PM |
| However, 3.5's DR system requires for you to have a magical, lawful, flaming, adamantine (yes, a little sarcasm) sword to cut through this DR of 15.. Suddenly cuts the damage potential down. Cold Iron's ugly, especially since all the demons and evil fey have it, they effectively knock out some steam the fighter had.
Also, most encounters last a total of 6 rounds at the longest, which is all a wizard needs to totally cream something and then rest for the next day after having been through 3 or 4 encounters. Fighters need to rest too, so yeah.. One day passes by, and then we do it all over again.
While the fighter needs to swing a bunch of times, a wizard can have half the spells prepared for attack, and that leaves an average of 20 spells that hurt, from rays of enfeeblement to the ugly meteor swarms and power word kill.
While 3.5 made it a little harder for a wizard to hit that save of 40, it's still possible. Yes, the wizard has 23 Int (5 stat boosts to intelligence), the fighter has 23 strength (same), the fighter specializes in a number of feats to improve damage.. The wizard specializes in feats to improve the DC to save against spells. The fighter has a +5 weapon. The wizard casts a 3rd level fireball that deals 10-60 damage with a save of at least 30 (could get magical items to increase that DC).. The fighter swings 4 times with big sword to do 18-28 damage a hit. A wizard casts a quickened spell (with a metamagic rod) and casts a normal spell at the same time and do serious damage. It all evens out if the fighter gets to stack a feat with keen.
As it is, a wizard always outdamages a fighter in every aspect and wizards get millions of spells, can cast defensively, can max out concentrate, and such... | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
|
Slapdragon
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 08/03/2005 5:31 PM |
| You are forgetting Magic Resistance. By the time the uber Magic User is throwing around quickened 7th level spells from his gatling gun of the magi, the things he is throwing them at have mounting Magic Resitance. they also are more likely to be able to counterspell AND may have minions who will be waiting for the MU to open his mouth.
(Slapdragon Rule #1 For Adventuring: Always Gank the Magic User First)
I will grant you that, when facing an opponent who comes in dumb and does not choose to use basic strategy against a magic user, you are correct that they are more powerful than a fighter. But the problem with uber-keen is that players will only choose a handful of weapons. Not every fighter should use a keen rapier (nor should any other weapon become the clear choice for the gamey player). If uber-keen became common, you might see other weapons start to not be taken. And simply for interest sake, it is fun to have the fighter who occasionally takes something other than a great sword or a rapier. | |
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt. | |
|
IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 08/03/2005 5:38 PM |
| The maximum case for spell DC from a level 20 wizard under normal 3.5 rules circumstances:
Starting Int 18
5 level ups to 23
inherent +5 bonus from a book takes us to 28
enhancement bonus from item to 34
Two spell focus feats add an extra +2
Base DCs are then 24+spell level for spells in your specialized school, or in the case of a maximized, empowered fireball, DC 27, as it is still a level 3 spell. You could heighten it another 2 levels and get it to a 29.
Hardly a DC of 40 on a fireball. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 08/03/2005 5:46 PM |
| A 20th level fighter who cares as much about his damage as your wizard will have a Strength of 30 or so, wield a 2H weapon, have double specialisation, and probably have a couple of other nice enhancements on that weapon. Let's call it a +4 flaming frost greatsword.
That's 2d6+(2d6 elemental) +23 damage per strike.
Attack bonus: +36/31/+26/+21 melee (+20 BAB, +10 Str, +4 magic, +2 GWF)
Against a Balor (DR 15/cold iron), it is reduced to an average of 10 damage per strike.
However, that Balor has AC 35. Let's use 5 points of power attack. That raises the average damage to 20 points per strike.
Chance of hitting: 85%/60%/35%/10% - average damage, 38 per round.
Meanwhile, your Wizard (20th level, Int 30) has a DC on 9th-level spells of 31 (GSF). The Balor's weakest save is +19. So, a 55% chance of them working. Then you factor in Spell Resistance. Well, the Wizard probably has GSP and an ioun stone or something else... SR 28 doesn't stand a chance. [:)]
Hit it with cold, assume 20d6 cold damage, resist 10 cold, average damage about 60 if save, or 25 if made - so about 40 damage per round.
That's fairly similar...
Cheers!
| |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 08/03/2005 6:48 PM |
| So, all in all... would there be a problem with keen and improved crit stacking to you? All it is is a feat and magic item.. And then there's an issue with laminate steel... I'd double the price of it at most.. 1800 gold to bring a 19 to 18, 18 to 17.. eh.. no big deal. :D
Besides, laminated steel isn't only a longer process but requires the best steel and the best weaponsmith. So it'll be rough to find all of it.
And yes, Merric, you're right.. Fighters care as much as Wizards, and so, that's why I keep 3.0 intact.. ;) In fact, I've often thought about going back to ADnD, because Fighters were the only class with multiple attacks (except two weapon style), and Rangers in 1e started with 2 HD.. Yep.. warriors were better in 2e, until 3e came out and gave every class multiple attacks.
And btw, my Balor would have casted mage armor and shield at the very leasy long before battle. :) | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
|
BigBC
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 08/03/2005 8:48 PM |
| | Actually my character is a paladin/favored soul of Torm and the greatsword is Torm's favored weapon. That's the reason I'm not using a falchion or a rapier. I'm just trying to find a way to improve my character's chances as he is a front line fighter. Coming up against giants and huge dragons with my AC of 22 means I need to hit hard and more often. I already took the improved critical (greatsword), but found this and thought why not ask the community their thoughts. Seems split with more people going to the 'wouldn't allow it' side of things. Oh well, my DM has yet to let me know, but she has allowed other things we've found from outside WOTC material (such as 'Torn Asunder' for critical effects and scarring to make things seem more real) so I've got at least a chance. | |
Complete: Ha, De, Ar, GoL, Ab, Dk, Af, Ud, WD, DQ, BW
Favorite Supplier
"Indecision may, or may not be my problem." - Jimmy Buffet
Champion of the Gibberling | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 08/03/2005 8:57 PM |
| That's a good reason for the Wizard to start with Greater Dispel Magic. [)]
The problem with crit stacking really becomes apparent when you have stupid weapons. Do you remember the spiked gauntlet in S&F? 17-20 crit range normally; which made it a 9-20 crit range with keen and Improved Crit. Suddenly, every roll was a crit...
Why I really hated 3.0 DR was that it didn't matter most of the time. You had a cleric cast "Greater Magic Weapon", and that was it. In 3.5, DR has been an ongoing concern of my players - but, because of lower values, it hasn't terribly affected them.
DR 15 is rare. DR 5 is very common.
Yes, there are monsters (like the pit fiend) that wizards do better against than fighters, but the reverse also applies.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 08/03/2005 10:34 PM |
| Spiked Gauntlet? Wasn't that in the PHB and it didn't have anything special to it? :D I don't remember ever seeing it in the S&F, and a 1d4 doubled on a crit doesn't seem all that much.. Wow, it could be a whole 4 more points of damage. ;)
Yeah, 3.0's DR system at times seems clunky.. If you have that +5, you can hit that Iron Golem. Intead it reduces 50 damage a hit.. yeah, there's a point to all of that, avoid iron golems if at all possible. It's one of my "DM will TPK" creatures because most of the time it's near an antimagic circle.
However, I hate this DR - Adamantine Good Magic DR.. Or Cold Iron, or etc... One of my players had convinced me the DR system, which I almost adopted, was too clunky for his fighter. Since they run into DR adamantium, DR cold iron, DR good and piercing, DR silver, DR chaos, all the time, it's a wonder why they wanted it that way. What did I adopt from 3.5? The bard still sucks, just not as bad.. Bards in ADnD is sickeningly good. The fighter sucks. The sorcerer sucks worse because some arbitrary rule says metamagic rods don't work as well for them as sorcerers.. So what do I do?
I make things stack
I give a bard a pletora of bardic abilities
Sorcerers get to use metamagic as usual
I allow crazy things
Why? Because if the PCs all go with keen improved critical weapons with laminated steel (scimitar hits a crit 9-20), my monsters do the same. :D However, rolling that 9 doesn't mean a guaranteed hit, unless you actually hit the AC. How often does a 9 hit some of the usual CR 15+ creatures? I'll safely say 10%. | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 08/03/2005 11:04 PM |
| Depends a bit whether it is the fighter or the buffed cleric attacking. [:)]
quote:
I don't remember ever seeing it in the S&F, and a 1d4 doubled on a crit doesn't seem all that much.. Wow, it could be a whole 4 more points of damage. ;)
There was some weird weapon in S&F that had a 17-20 crit range, I forget its name.
Strength, specialisation and magic bonuses to damage ALSO multiply on crits, Kaya. That's one reason why a Power Attacking character can be so scary. d4 is nothing. It's the +15 the character gets from other sources. (Elemental and Sneak attack bonuses don't).
quote:
How often does a 9 hit some of the usual CR 15+ creatures? I'll safely say 10%.
That's actually a good question. A 15th level fighter should have something like a +27 (Str 25=+7, +3 weapon, GWF), a 20th level fighter is up around +35 or so. (Str 28=+9, +4 weapon, GWF)
Balor: CR 20, AC 35
Marilth: CR 17, AC 29
Horned Devil: CR 16, AC 35
Pit Fiend: CR 20, AC 40
Marut: CR 15, AC 34
Very Old Black Dragon: CR 18, AC 31
Old Red: CR 20, AC 35
Formian Queen: CR 17, AC 27
Planetar: CR 16, AC 32
Nightcrawler: CR 18, AC 35
Nightwalker: CR 16, AC 32
Tarrasque: CR 20, AC 35
Titan: CR 21, AC 38
Based on that, I'd say that those high-level fighters are hitting a LOT more than 10% of the time.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 08/03/2005 11:14 PM |
| aha!
I'll have to look it up sometime.. My friend borrowed my S&F so I can't look it up. | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
|
Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 08/04/2005 12:14 AM |
| Its the Bladed Gauntlet, did d6 slashing a hit, small weapon.
The main reason I can see for their removing the stacking of keen and improved critical was simple: the power attack change means that you have the raging Barbarian running around screaming "HASSAN CHOP!" with a Falchion. 12-20 threat range with full power attack hurts. A lot. Scythes critting on 18-20 was also sick. At any rate, after about 6th level, the damage dice don't matter any more for the fighter, its all about the sheer mods getting added from power attack, specialisation and strength.
On the matter of this "laminated steel", in the unlikely event that I allowed it, I'd allow it to combine with keen or improved critical, however, I'd apply the laminated steel modifier LAST. So a keen laminated scimitar would have a threat range of 14-20, as opposed to 13-20. | |
Support awesome games: Play Hecatomb!
8-Bit Chibi Goths forever!
Champion of Mephistopheles
"Sorry! I was tryin' to open these beans!"
My Have/Want List, (Updated July 6 2004, will be updated soon)
| |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 08/04/2005 1:30 AM |
| I'd never allow laminated steel. It fails to understand how the crit system works.
A Battleaxe (1d8) has a 20/x3 crit. A longsword (1d8) has a 19-20/x2 crit.
They have exactly the same average damage (under most circumstances).
The extra 200% damage the Battleaxe does on 1 time in 20 is matched by the extra 100% damage the Longsword does on 2 times in 20.
Make both of them out of Laminated Steel:
The Battleaxe now has 19-20/x3 crit, or +200% damage on two occasions (total 400% bonus); the longsword now has 18-20/x2 crit, or +100% on 3 occasions (total 300% bonus).
They are no longer equivalent. You'd be mad to use a longsword - the Battleaxe is now clearly superior.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 08/04/2005 2:42 AM |
| | Elven Thinblade in Complete Warrior is superior: 1d8 18-20/x2.. Elves get to have this.. Oh yeah.. Tougher than a scimitar, and this thing is light I believe. | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
|
IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 08/04/2005 2:40 PM |
| | Exotic weapons get to be a little better, yes. It is the same thing with the bastard sword and dwarven waraxe. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 08/04/2005 5:37 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi
Elven Thinblade in Complete Warrior is superior: 1d8 18-20/x2.. Elves get to have this.. Oh yeah.. Tougher than a scimitar, and this thing is light I believe.
Yes, the Thinblade is superior, but it's also an Exotic Weapon.
Basically it is a Rapier with a d8 attack instead of d6; that's enough for it to become Exotic.
(Compare Bastard sword to Longsword: d10 attack instead of d8).
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
Kaya Kenobi
Underboss
1304 Posts
San Jose, California
| | 08/05/2005 11:42 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
quote:
Originally posted by Kaya Kenobi
Elven Thinblade in Complete Warrior is superior: 1d8 18-20/x2.. Elves get to have this.. Oh yeah.. Tougher than a scimitar, and this thing is light I believe.
Yes, the Thinblade is superior, but it's also an Exotic Weapon.
Basically it is a Rapier with a d8 attack instead of d6; that's enough for it to become Exotic.
(Compare Bastard sword to Longsword: d10 attack instead of d8).
Cheers!
Thinblade's light, TWF with it... ;)
Bastard Sword's heavy, too heavy for TWF! :D | |
Just a simple traveler from the swamps of Dagobah otherwise known as Florida. Also known as Hurricane Alley!
I always try to send through delivery confirmation, and I expect the same. It's only 55 cents extra, so it's just a little more than a pay phone call, so just do it for the Kai. I prefer to trade with people in the US and Canada, sorry everyone else.
http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/53/postid/655406/view/topic/Default.aspx - references | |
|
IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 08/05/2005 4:30 PM |
| | The thinblade isn't light, it just has the same exception that allows weapon finesse with it that the rapier has, IIRC. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 08/05/2005 5:26 PM |
| Yes: Thinblade is a 1-handed weapon that allows you to use Weapon Finesse with it. This is exactly the same as the rapier.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
Zeb
Underboss
2027 Posts
| | 08/05/2005 7:23 PM |
| Based on the original topic, I would not disallow it out of hand. My current players are not power gamers, but plotliners. They enjoy the storyline and have for fun in that aspect. (I rarely have TPK's because of this reason...the need to create an entire plotline, blah!)
Anyway, in a power gaming group I'd probably disallow it, but in my group I'd let it slide, but if it became a continuous problem there is the concept of sundering and the inordinate difficulty of finding the materials and weaponsmith with the appropriate degree of skill. The rules are guidelines... | |
Email Offers | Trade History
Champion of the Frost Giant Jarl
"Pray that you meet death standing on your feet, rather than on your knees." | |
|
Korhal_IV
Sergeant
852 Posts
| | 08/06/2005 11:05 PM |
| Keen and Improved Critical should in fact stack. If they do not, the rapier-wielder is absolutely shafted compared to the greatsword-wielder. Sean K Reynolds, one of the big authors behind 3.0, elaborates: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/keenimprovedcritstacking.html
I think reading SKR's rants page is an absolute must for any DM. | |
I now have a Have/Want list updated with all my rares! Stop by to take a look!
Trade References: www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8560 | |
|
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
| |
ActiveForums 3.7 | You must be signed in to participate in the
games. |