Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
    
Australia
 | | 10/12/2005 10:32 PM |
| | recovered topic 9820 | |
Merric Blackman
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Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 10/12/2005 10:32 PM |
| From the SRD:
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Multiclassing: A paladin who takes another class may not gain any more levels in the paladin class. (There are exceptions).
###
Good prestige classes include the Cavalier from Complete Warrior. I'm sure there are others, I just don't have the books with me at the moment.
ShadowLord, do you have the books?
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Merric Blackman
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2637 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 10/12/2005 10:38 PM |
| I have the DMG 2 and the Players handbook. The players handbook I can't seem to find at the moment.
I'm thinking of playing a Thri-Kreen paladin so he doesn't try to kill the other pcs. Either that or a Thri-Kreen Fighter. | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 10/12/2005 10:40 PM |
| Different DM's rule differently about the paladin's vows, but the Code of Conduct section on pg. 44 of the PHB is a good starting point. Essentially, you can't commit any evil actions, lie, cheat, steal, burb in public, etc.
Paladins are kind of like Druids in that you are usually better off sticking to your main class rather than taking a PrC. If you do take a PrC, take it as soon as possible after level 5 when you get your mount.
Also, pray to your deity of choice that you get great rolls for your attributes. Paladins have seven primary abilities- one more than even exist. (Okay, it's really only Str, Con, Wis and Cha. But sometimes it seems like seven.) | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 10/13/2005 2:39 AM |
| Don't be afraid to start off with a couple/few levels of fighter then switch to Paladin. Paladins can get bogged down by lack of feats, especially if they're stuck frontlining a lot. Most of the really good Paladin abilites appear in the first half of the class; so, you're not in dire trouble if you don't follow it all the way through. Unless you really need the spells.
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2637 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 10/13/2005 8:56 AM |
| Can you loot bodies and ruins and tombs and such. I heard that is sort of thought of as stealing in the paladin sense of things.
Is this true??
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Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 10/13/2005 10:25 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ShadowLord XT
Can you loot bodies and ruins and tombs and such. I heard that is sort of thought of as stealing in the paladin sense of things.
Is this true??
As a DM I've never allowed a Paladin to let any of his party members loot tombs; if he conviniently looked the other way in one case eventually came to be an aligment shift.
I also don't allow them to loot bodies; if the fallen is a friend or unknown you cannot come to terms on doing something like that, if the fallen is a foe why would he want the belongings of an enemy?
Ruins is pretty much fair game but I take note of it if it happens. A Paladin to me (apart to whatever the old/new/future rules may say) is never after material gain unless commanded by a higher authority and part of a spiritual quest ala crusades. | |
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Omand
Commander
3120 Posts
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
| | 10/13/2005 5:38 PM |
| Hello,
I would suggest that you talk to your DM and find out his/her take on Paladins for some help in this issue.
I know that as a DM I would allow a Paladin to "loot" within reason. If course, that Paladin better be blessing his wealth to get rid of any evil taint and giving a pretty big tithe to his church.
My last campaign had a Paladin in it. Dumb as a rock, but devout. He tithed between 10 - 15% of his treasure to his church. The rest of his funds were invested in ensuring his cohorts (the party) were ready to kick evil butt. That seemed fair and in character to me.
Now, if he had allowed the party to go on murderous rampages against innocent civilians, allowed the rogue to pick pockets everywhere, etc., then we would have had problems.
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 10/13/2005 5:53 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
I also don't allow them to loot bodies; if the fallen is a friend or unknown you cannot come to terms on doing something like that, if the fallen is a foe why would he want the belongings of an enemy?
The problem is that the core rules assume your paladin will be looting bodies with your fellow adventurers to keep up with their character wealth. So I would say it's okay for a paladin to loot evil creatures. That is, you can't break into the old king's sarcophagus and steal his golden ceremonial armor, but you can take whatever the vampire was carrying before you killed it. | |
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2637 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 10/13/2005 5:57 PM |
| I didn't think that paladins sucked that bad. Well, I guess I'm playing the Thri-Kreen fighter in my next game.
feats- multi attack, improved multi attack and ambidexterity | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
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Omand
Commander
3120 Posts
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
| | 10/13/2005 6:15 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ShadowLord XT
I didn't think that paladins sucked that bad. Well, I guess I'm playing the Thri-Kreen fighter in my next game.
feats- multi attack, improved multi attack and ambidexterity
I would hardly say the Paladin "sucks". it is simply a different role-playing experience. In fact, the Paladin is a fairly powerful class when it comes to comabt, and versitile outside of combat if played well.
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Corim Danex
Warlord
6809 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 10/14/2005 2:27 AM |
| | I disagree with the paladins shouldn't loot concept. The paladin has a mission to accomplish, and the items and treasure he obtains could be used to purchase items which strengthen his ability to accomplish his mission. If he/she decides to use some of the loot to help out in a charitable cause, it would be in character. But just because there is a charitable cause that exists (from a donation standpoint) doesn't mean that the paladin has a compulsion to go give away anything he/she can to help, or the paladin is violating his/her code. | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 10/14/2005 8:02 PM |
| | Wish I still had it but in an old dragon mag there was an article called Lawful Good does not mean Lawful Stupid. It had some very interesting points about how you can have Lawful Good players including paladins and not have them all be the same "damsel savers" that alot of players get into. Bottom line talk with your DM and come up with a good back story for your paladin that will help alot in your games. Also help to "know where he came from" so to speak as far as his code. | |
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Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 10/14/2005 11:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowLord XT
Can you loot bodies and ruins and tombs and such. I heard that is sort of thought of as stealing in the paladin sense of things.
Is this true??
As a DM I've never allowed a Paladin to let any of his party members loot tombs; if he conviniently looked the other way in one case eventually came to be an aligment shift.
I also don't allow them to loot bodies; if the fallen is a friend or unknown you cannot come to terms on doing something like that, if the fallen is a foe why would he want the belongings of an enemy?
Ruins is pretty much fair game but I take note of it if it happens. A Paladin to me (apart to whatever the old/new/future rules may say) is never after material gain unless commanded by a higher authority and part of a spiritual quest ala crusades.
And this is where the term "Lawful Stupid" came from. That's basically shutting down entire aspects of the game for the Paladin's player AND quite possibly the other players. I know I have never RP'd or DM'd a paladin this harshly. I ensure they try to be devout and righteous, but never to the point at having a total disadvantage compared to the rest of the party.
Nothing against you glu, but that is a bit too strict. | |
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 10/15/2005 1:50 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by dariustad
quote:
Originally posted by glumag
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowLord XT
Can you loot bodies and ruins and tombs and such. I heard that is sort of thought of as stealing in the paladin sense of things.
Is this true??
As a DM I've never allowed a Paladin to let any of his party members loot tombs; if he conviniently looked the other way in one case eventually came to be an aligment shift.
I also don't allow them to loot bodies; if the fallen is a friend or unknown you cannot come to terms on doing something like that, if the fallen is a foe why would he want the belongings of an enemy?
Ruins is pretty much fair game but I take note of it if it happens. A Paladin to me (apart to whatever the old/new/future rules may say) is never after material gain unless commanded by a higher authority and part of a spiritual quest ala crusades.
And this is where the term "Lawful Stupid" came from. That's basically shutting down entire aspects of the game for the Paladin's player AND quite possibly the other players. I know I have never RP'd or DM'd a paladin this harshly. I ensure they try to be devout and righteous, but never to the point at having a total disadvantage compared to the rest of the party.
Nothing against you glu, but that is a bit too strict.
Of course it is strict for a simple reason, I don't like Paladins. No one is that righteous and of all the people I have DMed and play with I am yet to see one of them role-play a Paladin as per their creed. They always fell and I always ended up changing their aligment so I opted to make things as difficult as possible for whomever wanted to play that class; saved a lot of my time and their displeassure later on...guess how many players I have that are paladins now? [)]
Not to mention how many times the one Paladin in a party disrupts the flow of a game and pisses off the rest of the party, in game and in RL. Weren't we playing a game on irc a bit back where the Paladin failed misserably in his righteousness in like day 1 of the adventure? [:D][)] | |
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IHawk
Underboss
1054 Posts
Lisle, Illinois
| | 10/15/2005 9:37 AM |
| another good PRC is Hospitaller. It fills in with the feats and you can still progress in caster level. If you take a level of cleric just before your HOS Level you can advance spells almost as a straight cleric, BAB as a fighter, you get a few bonus feats, Lay on hands progression and Remove Disease a few extra time.
All in all, my favorite Paladin PRC and absolutely awesome for a martial paladin/cleric.
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 10/15/2005 11:25 AM |
| A Paladin is not easy to play but they are very tough. All of the special abilities can really turn the tide of a battle. The bonus to saving throws and the smite good abilities are both invaluable. I tend to avoid lawful good in general as I feel it is too restrictive. But there are Paladin variants in the Unearthed Arcana like the Chaotic Good Paladin of Freedom.
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Corim Danex
Warlord
6809 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 10/15/2005 1:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
Of course it is strict for a simple reason, I don't like Paladins. No one is that righteous
The "righteousness" of paladins is not that far out of reach, and yes, I have known many people who are that good. They might not necessarily also be powerful warriors, but in our world, that isn't something the average person works for. "Righteousness" and "Perfection" are two different things. Someone can be righteous by doing their best to be honorable, good, etc. As "righteous" is not the same as "lawful stupid", it is also not the same as "look down on everyone else". I haven't seen a paladin upset a party. I have seen rogues and chaotic or evil behavior upset a party. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 10/15/2005 1:23 PM |
| quote:
Someone can be righteous by doing their best to be honorable, good, etc. As "righteous" is not the same as "lawful stupid", it is also not the same as "look down on everyone else". I haven't seen a paladin upset a party. I have seen rogues and chaotic or evil behavior upset a party.
Hear Hear... I will say that I agree that a Paladin is much less likely to disrupt a Neutral - Good party than a Neutral Evil or a Chaotic Evil character. A Lawful Evil character is easier to deal with because while evil, they tend to have some sense of honor.
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 10/15/2005 1:50 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
quote:
Someone can be righteous by doing their best to be honorable, good, etc. As "righteous" is not the same as "lawful stupid", it is also not the same as "look down on everyone else". I haven't seen a paladin upset a party. I have seen rogues and chaotic or evil behavior upset a party.
Hear Hear... I will say that I agree that a Paladin is much less likely to disrupt a Neutral - Good party than a Neutral Evil or a Chaotic Evil character. A Lawful Evil character is easier to deal with because while evil, they tend to have some sense of honor.
I am happy you guys can roleplay that, my gaming group has been together 9 years and we just can't roleplay paladins; we have played on occassion a neutral good character but we are always on the true neutral side of things with a slight shift to evil, we are mercenaries at heart [)] | |
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megamadrat
Sneak
126 Posts
| | 10/15/2005 1:51 PM |
| Over the years, my method of setting up a paladin's credo is thus:
1)Take the PHB paladin code of conduct and throw over left shoulder.
2)Pull out the dogma of your chosen deity and copy out all the do's and dont's
3)Show to DM for approval/additions as deemed appropriate
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Sean-Khan
Commander
2723 Posts
| | 10/15/2005 4:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fearfrost
Wish I still had it but in an old dragon mag there was an article called Lawful Good does not mean Lawful Stupid.
I prefer the term "Awful good"... Same thing, but sounds better [:)]
Paladin is a challenge to roleplay, if you want to stay away from stereotypical ones that everyone hates. Like a police isn't harrassing pedestrians that don't use crossing, a paladin should be able to look through his fingers some things. And, paladins don't have an organization behind them to offer immediate backup; Most of the time, they'll have to by themselves, and they should be ready for it.
While paladin's mentality of looting probably isn't the same than for the rest of the group, his point of view to it should be to confiscate the property of the evildoer, to help right his wrongs. When the paladin reaches his temple, he should be ready to give his 'loot' to them, but the temple should also recognize the value of well equiped paladin and his companions, and let them keep most of that. And what is taken away, is give back in form of healing and other kind of support.
That's my point of view how paladins and looting fit together.
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 10/27/2005 12:48 PM |
| I just had to add to this thread with a very precise thought that fits the paladin topic:
"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines." [)] | |
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salmander
Sneak
140 Posts
| | 10/27/2005 1:52 PM |
| The important thing to remember about a Paladin following a code of conduct is that there are many different codes of conduct. As long as the codes are for Good, he needs to abide by them. One Paladin's Code may include helping old ladies cross the street and chastity, while another's may not.
A Code can be Lawful and still believe in the spoils of war, but find looting a tomb against the code. I think it all depends on who their Diety is and what orginazation they belong to. | |
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kyrin
Commander
3168 Posts
| | 10/27/2005 7:37 PM |
| Geez, don't you people watch cop shows?
It's not "looting the dead creatures' bodies," it's "confiscating these items so that they may serve a Greater Good."
I NEVER allow Paladins to accumulate wealth, and the people in my game that play Paladins know that going in. They buy better equipment to help them be better at smiting evil, they build shrines and temples, they donate to worthy causes, etc. They GET money, they just don't get to KEEP it.
Awful Good Paladin: "I don't NEED to loot. My god will provide for me!"
AGP's Deity: "Hey Stupid! That dead goblin is RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU! I let him have that 25 gp so that YOU could take it! What does it have to do, fall out of the sky?"
[)]
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 10/27/2005 11:03 PM |
| | I think that when Paladins come into play, I go with the basis of the best Knight of all...the Dark Knight. When you look at it, the way Batman handles everything, it's always by the book (with a few exceptions). He never kills anyone, he doesn't like hitting women. Now, let's just put it in a little better perspective. Batman can't make Lawful Good because what he does, being a vigilante, is not legal at all, but for a Paladin, such actions are not actually looked at in his world. In fact, Paladins, as a knight, usually has actual authority. So then thinking of it that way, you can see that Batman is definetly is Lawful Good, and that means that Paladins do have some room for flexibility. Just how I see and play it. You can agree or not agree as you will. | |
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Testament
Underboss
1397 Posts
| | 10/28/2005 1:45 AM |
| Close, but no cigar with Batman. Well, that's what I think anyway. Batman is a vigilante for starters, which erodes his lawfulness somewhat, but I don't think he's exactly good either. He has no qualms about permanently injuring anyone, and relies on fear and intimidation of everyone, innocent and criminal alike.
AFAIC, the ultimate pop-culture example of the Paladin is Superman. | |
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 10/28/2005 2:41 AM |
| In dragon magazine a few years ago they had a pretty good article on Champions of other religions. It was a version of paladin for other alignments , a code of conduct and what was expected of a champion of a particular deity. The champions were granted powers much like a paladins but with an eye towards the differing alignments and deitys and were striped of there granted powers,like a paladin, if they broke there alignment or were false to there diety.
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nyjastul69
Commander
2712 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 10/28/2005 8:59 AM |
| Are you refring to the 'A Plethora of Paladins' article from Dragon 106. Here's a link:
http://members.tripod.com/Lord_Eadric/paladins/paladins.html | |
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 10/28/2005 12:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
Are you refring to the 'A Plethora of Paladins' article from Dragon 106. Here's a link:
http://members.tripod.com/Lord_Eadric/paladins/paladins.html
Yes thats one but not the one I was referring to... I think. the article I was talking about was much more recent. But I can't find it the closest one I can find is Champions of Virtue from Dragon 283 with paladin like prestige classes for good aligned gods.
However the article i'm remembering had 'paladins' for all alignments except CE and since I can't find a recent one my mind probably time leaped into the past to the article you found. | | | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 10/28/2005 12:24 PM |
| I have a bit of a problem with Paladins of differing alignments... The paladin is the only core class that can have only one alignment. It is very restrictive for that reason. Evil characters can become black guards as a prestige class. A Black Guard is restricted to 10 levels but it runs very parallel to a Paladin. I think that the Paladin can be the most powerful core class, but it is also very restricted by it's code of conduct.... I don't think that I would like Paladin classes that are not as restricted. All of the gods can have their prestige classes for their knights templar... not a core class.
My 2 CP worth of opinion [)] | |
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kyrin
Commander
3168 Posts
| | 10/28/2005 11:02 PM |
| The problem I have with blackguards is the need to consort with evil outsiders. In my game, the main human deities -- even the evil ones -- are very leery of dealing with the powers of Hell and the Abyss, and rightfully so. So I just allow any deity with a martial bent to have paladins, regardless of alignment. So a Paladin of Athena is definitely not the same as a Paladin of Ares, and they're both different from a Paladin of Apollo. Different goals, different means to different ends. I just think it works a lot better without dragging outsiders into it. More of a family squabble than a traditional good vs. evil thang.
Now I'm not saying there AREN'T Blackguards, they are just outcasts from the main religious system. A good individual who has too much truck with angels and devas would be in the same position.
In sum, in my game, martial deities have Clerics and Paladins, and nature deities have Druids and Rangers. Other deities might have Monks or Fighters or even Rogues in addition to Clerics. It all depends on the nature of the deity.
JIM
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Chris Orlando
Warrior
187 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 1:50 PM |
| I personally feel that Paladin's are the most powerfull core class if you roll the proper stats. I think the number one problem with a paladin, is the confrintation with other party members in regards to raiding tombs and looting corpses. From a DM's standpoint its great if a player plays a paladen because he/she wont even have to try to create moral delimas because they will always be there for a paladin attempting to stop the party from looting corpes.
I also think its perfectly fine for a PC to loot evil corpses.
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Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 5:22 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chris Orlando
I personally feel that Paladin's are the most powerfull core class if you roll the proper stats. I think the number one problem with a paladin, is the confrintation with other party members in regards to raiding tombs and looting corpses. From a DM's standpoint its great if a player plays a paladen because he/she wont even have to try to create moral delimas because they will always be there for a paladin attempting to stop the party from looting corpes.
I also think its perfectly fine for a PC to loot evil corpses.
I ignore the whole looting of just slain enemies thing. There are limitations of how far the whole LG Paladin moral ideas/code should go. They should not be made to be the ultimate pinnacle of virtousness, ever. They are mortal and will make mistakes. They will fall and fail, but they should grow stronger from overcoming their faults, not be absurdly punished for them. I suppose I always saw the different classes as ways to have fun in the game, not go bat s**t loco because they weren't being "lawful stupid." | |
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Oni
Underboss
1131 Posts
| | 11/02/2005 5:50 PM |
| First off in my book Batman = LE. He has a code, but does things for his own ends. Sure it may end up being good, but he did it for himself.
The Paladins I play loot the dead, but does not keep it for himself. He gives allies/good guys loot to there grieving family. He gives monsters/bad guy loot to his church, and town to build up the defense, and what not. Now if the town wishes to reward him (and often they do since it means more things for town) then all the better.
I play Lawful stupid in most people's books, but it always works out in the end. | |
"...don’t try to outweird me, I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal."
- Zaphod Beeblebrox
Champion of the Nymph!
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