nyjastul69
Commander
2712 Posts
    
Rhode Island
 | | 11/21/2005 2:02 PM |
| | recovered topic 11785 | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2712 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 11/21/2005 2:02 PM |
| | I've always prefered Wizards. I think it's the lack of flexibility mostly. Skill points is a good idea. Were you thinking 4? I've also toyed around with giving them a d6 HD to help them use the extra weapon proficiencies. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 11/21/2005 2:09 PM |
| When I first saw the sorcerer's "number of spells per day" I thought they were overpowered. I've since become wiser ... sorcerers are definitely wanting, in terms of power and flexibility, compared to wizards.
If I were gonna make a fix, I'd give them a nifty -- but not overly powerful -- special ability every three or four levels. Abilities with lots of flavor, to further differentiate themselves from wizards. I'd also give them at least 4 skill points per level, and access to at least one social skill of their choosing. | |
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The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 11/21/2005 2:11 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
I've always prefered Wizards. I think it's the lack of flexibility mostly. Skill points is a good idea. Were you thinking 4? I've also toyed around with giving them a d6 HD to help them use the extra weapon proficiencies.
I really like the alternate wizard in the Book of Eldritch Might (Monte Cook's book). It has a d6 hit die and alternate spell lists.
I personally think d6 and UMD as class skill are easy fixes. Perhaps improved Toughness as a free feat instead of d6. There was a Dragon article that talked about magic amulets that contain spell knowledge in them. A sorcerer could expand his knowledge of spells by wearing said amulet. So, add lore of these items to your world as a possible way to expand a sorcerer's spell list.
I need to find and finalize it, but i have an alternate sorcerer that is more inline with a psychic warrior in how he gains and casts spells. He has points vs. slots so that he can spend more points to *up* the spell or even alter its type.
Just some thoughts running around my head. | | | |
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 11/21/2005 2:59 PM |
| | I perfer the battle sor varient in unearth arcana. An even less effective spell caster, but far more durable. | |
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water_prophet
Skirmisher
5 Posts
| | 11/21/2005 3:32 PM |
| An easy way to bring them more into balance in my opinion would be to give the Sorc bonus feats every five levels just like the Wizard, but make them be bloodline feats. So at level 1 they would have to pick their bloodline, and then could choose from a variety of bloodline feats every five levels. The dragon bloodline feats in the Complete Adventurer would be perfect for this.
I personally think that the two classes are fairly well balanced except for the Wizard bonus feats. | |
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Zenako
Commander
3469 Posts
| | 11/21/2005 3:44 PM |
| | But you also have to look at how well the base Sorceror class plays with many of the Prestige Classes that are available. In our game we have a Sorceror/Eldritch Knight Character and a FireLord/Wu-Jen character of similiar levels. I would not call either one more intriscially powerful than the other. In certain situations I could clearly pick which one would win, but overall, pretty well balanced. The Eldritch Knight aspect gives that Sorceror some pretty good fighting ability and when he channels spell power he does have to worry which spell he is using, just one of the power slots. The added flexibility of a Wizard is nice, but so is the ability to use all but one spell of a slot and still have all the spells you know of that level still available. | |
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 11/21/2005 3:52 PM |
| I give Sorcerers Eschew Material Components as a bonus feat. It seems silly that someone with magic "in the blood" still needs a glass rod in hand to summon a lightning bolt.
I toyed with a d6 hit die, but really, when does a sorcerer ever actually use those weapon proficiencies instead of hanging back and throwing spells?
UMD is also a class skill for sorcerers in my games. | |
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Corim Danex
Warlord
6809 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 11/21/2005 4:34 PM |
| I think that giving more skill points per level for sorcerers would help. I remember when I first looked at the skills aspect of 3rd edition, I thought, "Great, now we can customize characters more." However, it can be quite difficult making characters good at things with the cross class skill penalty and with some classes being so poor at available skill points. Sometimes I think that allowing a character to add a class skill if they give up two others (except rogues who have enough variety already) might be worth considering.
NOTE: My opinions expressed in this post are influenced by the fact that I don't like prestige classes. If I were more warm to the idea of prestige classes, I know that there would be plenty of variety. I just don't think that prestige classes are well balanced with the base classes. | |
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salmander
Sneak
140 Posts
| | 11/21/2005 5:15 PM |
| I find the sorcerer class is best when used to augment another class by multi-classing. A rogue/sorcerer is far more powerful than a rogue/wizard because of the flexability in the spells. The spells augment the rogue's thieving abilities, but he doesn't usually know which ones he's going to need before hand. He might run into a stiuation where he needs 5 knock spells, but as a wizard he probably wouldn't have that many memorized.
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ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Pale Rider
Underboss
1023 Posts
London, Ontario, Canada
| | 11/21/2005 11:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
I think that giving more skill points per level for sorcerers would help. I remember when I first looked at the skills aspect of 3rd edition, I thought, "Great, now we can customize characters more." However, it can be quite difficult making characters good at things with the cross class skill penalty and with some classes being so poor at available skill points. Sometimes I think that allowing a character to add a class skill if they give up two others (except rogues who have enough variety already) might be worth considering.
My primary motivator in giving every single class a +2 skill point bump. Skills are fun, I like them and encourage my players to take cross class skills for their PCs. 2 extra skill spoints every level allows them to do that. | |
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arbados
Underboss
1446 Posts
New York, USA
| | 11/21/2005 11:58 PM |
| | I don't necessarily find the sorcerer to be all that less powerful. I think a lot goes into the individual playing the sorcerer. A great amount of thought needs to go into this class because spell selection is critical in creating one which is powerful. The swapping of spells was a great addition, but it is still very limited. | |
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gregreid
Warrior
276 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 12:24 AM |
| I am of the minority here.
I believe the classes to be pretty well balanced.
I would play a sorcerer over a wizard anytime.
Greg | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 12:41 AM |
| I'm also a sorcerer fan. I think they're fine as is.
In my campaign I give sorcerer players Eschew Materials for free at 1st level, but I do that more for flavor than for game balance.
People really underestimate how great spontaneous casting really is. I think the WotC designers feel it to be extremely powerful as well. That's likely the reason that the sorcerer only received a modest revision in the transition from D&D3.0 to D&D3.5.
They key to the sorcerer is careful spell selection, judicious use of spell duplicating items, and a healthy respect for the utility of the Charisma score. If you manage to accomplish all of the above, a sorcerer is just as good as a any wizard.
Just my 2 cents based on personal gaming experience. | |
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 1:20 AM |
| I am a wizard fan just for the flexibility of spells, but I see nothing wrong with the sorcerer. I like using them over wizards as npc's when DMing they are just easier to build quickly.
They are rarely played in my games as nobody I play with really likes playing wizards or sorcerers(except me) so spellcasting is usually done with other sources when I DM. I agree with arbados that the sorcerer is just as good as sateh player who runs him and in the right hands is just as good as the wizard. In a side note with his high charisma he should make a good 'face man' for the party. | | | |
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devasque
Sergeant
874 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 3:06 AM |
| In my homebrew game I've opened Sorcerers skill cadre to include a few more Charisma based and centric skills. Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate coupled with some selective spells can make for a mean sorcerer. And someone already mentioned they can make for a good 'faceman' for a party.
Sometimes better then say a paladin/cleric type who has the social skills but usually tends to curve towards the martial aspects. Bards and Rogues are better but only if you gear the character to be people person. Feats like Negotiator and Persausive can improve upon this train of thought as well.
I've created an NPC LE Aristocrat/Sorcerer with said feats above and truth be told I'd be tempted to give her a whirl as an actual PC if given the chance.
Also to note that sorcerer is by far an easier class to tag on to a non-standard race when beefing up a NPC or monster. And as already stated, it does exceptionally well as a base leading to many and varied prestige classes and/or choices to multiclass. Much more so then a wizard in my opinion.
Not necessarily a drawback in my minds eye. Just another reason why it is more or less balanced against a wizard. | |
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Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 3:39 AM |
| I have never played a sorcerer PC in 3.x. (I exclude the default casting of dragons and monsters.) However, I have never been much of an arcane caster player, either. Give me cleric, fighter, or scout (I realli like this class)!
The biggest problems I have with the sorcerer: bad skill limitations and choices. Charisma with no realy charisma-based skills? Who thought that up? If they've got the capacity for casting their spells, run with it!
As for spells, you do have to be extremely cautious when choosing spells. Invent a concept, then stick with it. Remember to build in the capacity to aid your melee combatants as well. Haste is rarely a bad choice for a well-rounded party (Archers will love you!).
One thing I do avoid with sorcerers: skill boosting feats. You get few feats as is. Losing a feat slot just to gain a +2 bonus to 2 skills can be a bad choice. These feats usually only help at lower levels, leaving a character wanting for options at higher levels. At least, this is my experience from seeing these feats in use. | |
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Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 8:42 AM |
| | I've employed both the eschew components and extra feats, and they've helped to balance out the sorc. much more evenly. Fortunately none of my PC's went for the class, but even on the NPC's, its necessary to make them worth their while, especially at lower levels. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 9:34 AM |
| I ran a campaign that lasted three years and spanned 18 levels, just ending two years ago. One of the primary PCs was a pure Sorcerer.
I did give him Diplomacy as a class skill but, that was all.
My campaign was set in a world at war, and the PCs rarely had time to sit around a town or city and craft items. Much like Lord of the Rings, the whole campaign spanned about a year, and they crossed the continent while trying to gain the power to put an end to a Demon Prince's secret bid to tear the country apart with war while he worked to open a gate to the abyss (which they didn't learn until Act 3 of the campaign).
Anyway, the sorcerer was a fantastic class, and out performed a wizard in this setting. Here's why.
1 - Barely any time to craft wands or scrolls to boost # of spells per day.
2 - Apothecaries and Scroll Shoppes were available in major cities as the PCs briefly passed through, so the Sorcerer was able to get his versatility through purchases.
3 - I'd frequently challenge the group with several encounters in a row, or a timed-task that didn't give them a chance to rest and re-memorize spells very often. The sorcerer actually ran out of spells a handful of times, so, a wizard would have run out of spells often.
4 - When we started the campaign, we were all new to 3.0 and then 3.5 when WoTC transitioned.
Playing a Sorcerer made it more likely that the player really knew his spells well, (he did select them carefully) and used them to their maximum tactical potential.
The party started to learn each other's tactics, even though they weren't always the same.
5 - I find that busting out a random spell you haven't used before is often detrimental to the party.
I was a PC in a friend's campaign last weekend, and the Druid cast Sleet Storm, which blinds everything currently inside it's radius and causes balance checks for anything wanting to move through it.
The DM's son plays a Rogue/Barbarian who didn't think fast enough on his feet about concealment blowing his sneak attacks, and he wasted his invisibility tossing a sneak attack into the sleet storm.
Another time, another session, the first time a party cleric cast "Anti Magic Field" it directly lead to the death of the party ranger because the cleric couldn't heal him in time, and the ranger couldn't even drink a healing potion because the cleric was negating all magic. Very messy.
I think a lot of PCs don't always optimize the abilities that they DO have with the rest of the group, and a sorcerer forces you to narrow your focus and play the character to a higher potential.
Sorcerers also make great minor NPCs because they're very easy to write up. | |
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Zenako
Commander
3469 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 11:25 AM |
| | As I think back to the Mages I often played in the older systems, there were really only a handful of spells that would get focused or memorized each day. Once a character locks into a spell style it is the rare occasion that one steps outside of those parameters. If the campaign style tends to be single focused, then the limits on the sorceror are almost non-existent. If you have a combat intensive campaign, it is easy enough to select a fairly optimal list of spells for battle. If the campaign involves more stealth and polictics, then a different matrix of spells would be superior. In my experience it is the rare occasion when a single campaign delves into all those types of play on a regular basis. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2712 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 11/22/2005 11:35 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako;
As I think back to the Mages I often played in the older systems, there were really only a handful of spells that would get focused or memorized each day. Once a character locks into a spell style it is the rare occasion that one steps outside of those parameters. If the campaign style tends to be single focused, then the limits on the sorceror are almost non-existent. If you have a combat intensive campaign, it is easy enough to select a fairly optimal list of spells for battle. If the campaign involves more stealth and polictics, then a different matrix of spells would be superior. In my experience it is the rare occasion when a single campaign delves into all those types of play on a regular basis.
That's a good point and I agree 100%. It's the Wizards ability to use utility spells that makes it more attractive to me. For example, if you're in a dungeon and can afford to pass a day to memorize that one spell that's in your book but usually isn't memorized it's a tremendous boon. I love that flexibility.
I can't count how many times another player has said 'Do you have a spell for this?' Ummm... Yeah, tomorrow. | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 12:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
That's a good point and I agree 100%. It's the Wizards ability to use utility spells that makes it more attractive to me. For example, if you're in a dungeon and can afford to pass a day to memorize that one spell that's in your book but usually isn't memorized it's a tremendous boon. I love that flexibility.
I can't count how many times another player has said 'Do you have a spell for this?' Ummm... Yeah, tomorrow.
See this is the beauty of the sorcerer. Sorcerers save a great deal of cash by not needing to maintain a spell book. That extra money can be applied towards scrolls (and other spell duplicating items) of obscure spells that are only situationally useful. No need to spend additional time memorizing spells.
Plus with carefully choosen known spells, you'll often have a spell that works for a given situation. It may not be the best spell, but oftentimes it does the trick. (i.e. Glitterdust in place of See Invisibility, Alter Self in place of Water Breathing, etc.).
Finally, because you cast on the fly, you'll never have to waste spell slots memorizing spells that aren't useful for that particular adventure.
LM
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nyjastul69
Commander
2712 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 11/22/2005 12:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey:
Sorcerers save a great deal of cash by not needing to maintain a spell book.
Spellbooks are no longer all that expensive, especially when considering what they were in 2nd, 50 gp per page and multiple pages per spell. [xx(] I definitely see what your saying about situational spells and scrolls. I think the Sorc is a fine class and doesn't actually need any re-balancing. I just simply prefer Wizards. Maybe I'm more of grognard than I give myself credit for. [)]
Another way to deal with 'yeah but tomorrow' problem is leaving a slot empty. You have to have multiple slots to make this work effectively and generally requires at least mid levels, or a Mystic Theurge. I've played a MT through it's entire progression and made tremendous use of open slots while on the fly. I left 1 or more slots open at each level for each class. I changed from saying 'yeah but tomorrow to saying 'yeah, gimme 15 minutes' [:D] | |
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Chris Orlando
Warrior
187 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 12:57 PM |
| I havn't read everyones critique on how much better wizards are than sorcerrers. I personally feel they are pritty balanced for the following reasons.
Example your in a duengeon and your to fight a dragon and you dont know what type and the wizard takes the wrong resistance type, while a sorccerrer it wouldn't matter what type of resistance they took because the could choose it as they go. Another being what if you only needed 1 magic missle for the day and you needed some other lvl 1 spells but you took 4 magic missles...... (screwed).
Another reason, I would much rather have a high Cha vs a high Int. In D&D Cha is way way more important than a high intelegance. Like being a hot chick in real life..... dont have to be smart to be rich, just marry rich.
You folks also claim the flexibility of the wizard... What happens if someone steals your spell book.... Your screwed, your as crappy as a lvl x pesant, while if you where a sorrcerrer on the other hand, you know all of your spells by heart.
Before sudden spells came out i could say sorrcerres where superrior to wizards for the reason that you could use the metimagic feat if you need it, and if you didn't need it you didnt have to waste that slot. For example what if a wizard takes a widdened fireball when it wasn't really needed, he/she has just wasted a 5 level spell slot of which he probelly only has a few. That was one thing I liked about the normal mettimagic feats.
I do however feel that with the sudden feats it has tipped the scales slightly in the favor of wizards. I'm not sure how to exactly how to balance that, but that did make sorrcerrers slightly less desirable. | |
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 1:32 PM |
| | I myself am a huge fan of the wizard because of the versatility you have all claimed, but I see the benefit of the sorcerer. It's definitly a useful class and I have seen many people use it to great effect. | |
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water_prophet
Skirmisher
5 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 6:05 PM |
| 2 general comments for the thread:
1) A character can only use a scroll or wand _without_ Use Magic Device if it is on his/her spell list. That means that a Sorcerer can only use scrolls and wands with spells that are part of his/her already limited selection.
2) Wizards are much better at using metamagic (IMHO). They can memorize the spell with the metamagic on it, and get it off without any additional casting time. Sorcerers can spontaneously add metamagic to a spell, but it increases the casting time. If you go from one standard action to one round, that is a big deal in most situations. Anyone who hits you during that time can make you lose the spell, and losing a spell with metamagic on it is a big loss. Also, the fact that Wizards can take metamagic feats as bonus feats every 5 levels adds to their general spell flexibility. | |
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megamadrat
Sneak
126 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 6:28 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by water_prophet
2 general comments for the thread:
1) A character can only use a scroll or wand _without_ Use Magic Device if it is on his/her spell list. That means that a Sorcerer can only use scrolls and wands with spells that are part of his/her already limited selection.
A sorcerer can use any scroll or wand which they have on their SPELL LIST this is different to their SPELLS KNOWN. which means that a sorcerer can actually use a scroll or wand with a sor/wiz spell on it even of they do not know the spell. In fact I recall an article or sidebar i read somewhere where a specialist wizard could take a level in sorcerer so that they could use scrolls/wands from fobidden schools | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 10:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by water_prophet
2) Wizards are much better at using metamagic (IMHO). They can memorize the spell with the metamagic on it, and get it off without any additional casting time. Sorcerers can spontaneously add metamagic to a spell, but it increases the casting time. If you go from one standard action to one round, that is a big deal in most situations. Anyone who hits you during that time can make you lose the spell, and losing a spell with metamagic on it is a big loss. Also, the fact that Wizards can take metamagic feats as bonus feats every 5 levels adds to their general spell flexibility.
Using a metamagic feat when you're a Sorcerer changes the casting time to your full round, not 1 round. It's easy to get the two mixed up, but as the player's handbook clarifies on page 143, it means it only happens on your round, like a full attack. There's no increased risk of disruption. You just lose the chance to make a move action. Wizards are better at using metamagic, but sorcerers aren't horrible. | |
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MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 11/22/2005 10:42 PM |
| Sorcerers are fine. They get a big number of spells, and their "limited" spell list is greatly expanded by the clever use of Empower Spell and Maximise Spell.
Consider that a 1st level Wizard will prepare two 1st level spells, only one of which is likely to be good in a given combat.
Meanwhile the 1st level Sorcerer has four 1st level spells, all that are useful.
I prefer playing Wizards for their versatility, but the Sorcerer is far better as a combat master.
Cheers! | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 10:52 PM |
| One thing that we have looked into in our game was a bump in base attack bonus. It gave the sorcerer better use of those weapons and gave him a better chance to hit with those nifty ray spells that he/she is bound to pick up.
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Puggins
Sergeant
622 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 2:13 PM |
| Wizard Versatility is usually overestimated. The Sorcerer can "prepare" for a combat by buying scrolls and using certain metamagic feats (elemental substitution is the big one). The wizard will have some out-of-combat advantages, like having access to Identify and such, but the difference isn't so huge as to eclipse the sorcerer's own advantages.
If there is one slightly unbalancing difference between the two it's the difference in primary stats. The Wizard's primary provides MUCH more utility than the sorcerers, making his switch to prestige classes much easier and his out of combat utility far graeter than the sorcerer's.
I also agree that a lack of higher level advantages makes sorcerers hunt for prestige classes much more desperately than wizards do. I just add a bonus metamagic feat at 5th level and every five levels beyond that- the bonus feat at first level is really unneeded, IMO.
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 3:08 PM |
| In an academic sense sorcerers are underpowered. In practice they often don't come across that way, because of outside factors like number of encounters per day (more favors the sorcerer, for example) or DMs giving low amounts of downtime (that hurts wizards, as they don't get time to leverage their Scribe Scroll and other item creation feats.)
Still, I think they're weak overall compared to wizards.
The major problem I have with them is they don't feel different enough from wizards to be interesting. I will probably be replacing them with warlocks in my next campaign setting. This also eliminates something that always bothered me about sorcerers, which is the "how is it that some random guy knows a spell that wizard X invented and hasn't shared with anyone." I never liked that spontaneous casters shared a spell list with wizards for this reason. | |
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kestrel.ca
Underboss
1684 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 5:08 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
Another way to deal with 'yeah but tomorrow' problem is leaving a slot empty. You have to have multiple slots to make this work effectively and generally requires at least mid levels, or a Mystic Theurge. I've played a MT through it's entire progression and made tremendous use of open slots while on the fly. I left 1 or more slots open at each level for each class. I changed from saying 'yeah but tomorrow to saying 'yeah, gimme 15 minutes' [:D]
Intriguing. How does leaving a spell slot blank work? I've obviously missed that option while perusing the books. Where can I find it? | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 5:23 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kestrel.ca
Intriguing. How does leaving a spell slot blank work? I've obviously missed that option while perusing the books. Where can I find it?
PHB p. 158:
quote:
When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells.
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