| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
| | Author | Messages | |
Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
    
Australia
 | | 11/21/2005 5:55 PM |
| | recovered topic 11796 | |
Merric Blackman
| |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 11/21/2005 5:55 PM |
| Well, I don't think the Order of the Bow Initiate is all that desirable. It sacrifices the ability to shoot lots of arrows in a round for one single more powerful shot... which does less damage than lots of arrows in a round.
For the most part, I allow any Prestige Class my players want. Balance-wise, there are very few I have issues with.
Cheers!
| |
Merric Blackman
| |
|
Mrfurious
Warrior
344 Posts
| | 11/21/2005 6:19 PM |
| In general I allow somewhat restricted access. Prestige classes are ways to reflect how your character is developing and what he wants to do, not suites of abilities to be picked from a buffet.
That being said I allow pretty much any PrC in my game and tie it to some in game organization, be it a Monastery or wizard academy or temple that the PCs have to make contact with. Most of them are public organizations that PCs can find out about through gather info checks or knowledge local or what have you. Once the PC has found the organization, then (assuming they meet pre-reqs) can begin taking levels in the PrC. Having them have to join the org makes my life easier for drumming up things for the PCs to do. I favor a non-linear plot as much as possible, and these organizations provide good jumping off points for PCs to find things to do.
I also don't have a hard limit on the number of PrC's a character can take, but I can tell when they are cherry picking abilities and forbid that whole heartedly.
| |
Sanity is a one trick pony, my friend, . . .but when you're good and crazy the sky is the limit.
http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=mrfurious
braman@che.utexas.edu | |
|
bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 11/21/2005 11:00 PM |
| I finally figured out why some DM's (including me) dislike prestige classes. Its a way for players to optimize (or cheat) that the DM can't really control.
You can make an overpowered character by maximizing your stats - The DM controls the die roll system allowed for stats
You can make an overpowered character by loading up magic items - The DM controls the amount of magic found
You can make an overpowered character by selecting specific feats, spells and prestige classes - The DM can't do anything about this with out banning specific ones.
Its an area of the game that the DM can't easily control and still follow the rules. This makes DM's nervous or upset.
I say that I don't ban prestige classes in my game. In my system I feel that they are a neat way to add story to a character, and reward players who have worked with in the story and "earned" them. Basically the players have to work on gaining it in game as well as meeting the system requirements. Usually by finding a master, researching/buying arcane books, and joining secrative orders, etc. I tell them it takes a while before you gain the class.
I have been DM'ing 3.0 since the PHB was released at Gencon in 2000. Do you know how many people have played a prestige class in my game? 0 people. Despite me allowing them, none have felt the effort is worth it. That kind of saddens me, but shows that I may need to loosen up my efforts. Plus it shows that the characters don't need them to be happy. My campaign has been going strong with 3.X rules for 5 years with no shortage of players. I actually have a small waiting list for players wanting to join. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
|
Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 11/21/2005 11:05 PM |
| | As far as I can tell, prestige classes reward roll-players more than role-players. If you want to shift power from one group to the other, tweaking your list of allowed PrCs can certainly do that. | |
"Why am I all sticky and naked? Did I miss something fun?"
-Vindicated champion of Tordek, Dwarf Champion | |
|
Pale Rider
Underboss
1023 Posts
London, Ontario, Canada
| | 11/21/2005 11:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fry
As far as I can tell, prestige classes reward roll-players more than role-players. If you want to shift power from one group to the other, tweaking your list of allowed PrCs can certainly do that.
Nonsense. The prestige classes I like (and allow) favour the imersion of the player into a role. They often gain powers that make them very, very good....in a few select situations and just average or even worse in others. Prestige classes are just another tool and i find it amusing some consider them cheating :rolleyes: | |
Completed Trades: Crescent Hawk, Vimes, demagogue, vidman, Eric is God, Strachan Fireblade, FungiMuncher, Dudeeehm, Shasack, gausse, kyrin, nyjastul69
Champion of the Remorhaz | |
|
Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 11/21/2005 11:42 PM |
| In our long running game... (five years and going strong) about half of the characters have prestige classes and half don't. We are sitting at 10th - 11th levels (we only play once every other week and only for about 5 hours) and many of the characters have been working towards a certain prestige class for quite a while.
Absolutely the DM has control over the prestige classes... In our game, the Dwarven Defender is part of the Church of the main Dwarven God and requires special training and an oath to the Church. Shadow Dancers are all members of a cult to the Shadow God. Certain prestige classes are just banned such as the Mystic Theurge.
The prestige classes can add alot to the characters and not just to "Roll playing." The Dwarven Defender is a pillar of the community and is respected by the dwarves for his "heroic" actions and for his position in the church. Our wizard has joined an arcane order (mage of the arcane order) which includes one of the main NPC's in the region. The effects the prestige class have on a game are very much in the power of the DM, you just have to be willing to use it and say "NO."
| |
"Are you not entertained?" 
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
| |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6809 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 11/22/2005 12:59 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jai
quote:
Originally posted by Corim Danex
NOTE: My opinions expressed in this post are influenced by the fact that I don't like prestige classes. If I were more warm to the idea of prestige classes, I know that there would be plenty of variety. I just don't think that prestige classes are well balanced with the base classes.
This made me think. I enjoy PrCs, but you are right. They are not balanced. I also don't think they were meant to be. They were supposed to be something cool and powerful along one axis, while diminishing other aspects of your character. They are essentially the Wizard Specialist Schools of the classes. But, every tom, dick, and harry that plays a archer wants to be Order of the Bow or Arcane Archer.
So, what do you (as a collective) do about PrC? Do you allow players what they want? Do you disallow what you think is powerful. Or do you build them into your campaigns? (i do the last as a customized form of not allowing what i find broken)
For instance:
My major wizards guild produces both Archmages and Lore Masters.
My Arcane Archers only exist in a single Elven community, one my players have never heard of.
Order Bow Initiate is a specialized Elven task force that is secretive (the players met one, but don't know what he is).
Assassin is not an option, neither is Blackguard. (bad guys)
Dwarven Defender is only available to one clan of dwarves.
Mystic Theurge must travel to the far ends of the earth to a single monastary in which to study.
Ninja, only if i run OA style game.
Anyway, anybody else?
I think making them less common like that would add interest. As I don't have a lot of experience DMing, I prefer to start with allowing the basic classes. I think that the prestige classes might be something I will take a closer look at in a couple of years or something. As it is, most of the players in my group are either new to D&D RPG or new to 3.5. This means that there is plenty of opportunities to play the basic classes and not feel like we're repeating everything. Down the road, after the group becomes more developed, maybe in another campaign or something, adding some prestige classes might be needed. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 1:07 AM |
| Some of them can be campaign ruining monstrosities (Frenzied Berserker, I'm looking at you) but a lot of them are balanced fine. The Geometer may get a greater volume of stuff than a Wizard gets with increases in his familiar's abilities and a bonus feat, but overall it isn't that incredible. Certainly nothing overpowering.
The trouble generally comes in combining PrC's as the player sees fit, dipping into one PrC for some stuff then jumping out when there isn't "any" more benefit in progressing in the class.
PrC's are also almost necessary to balance some multiclass options with the core classes. For example, a Druid/Monk is tough to pull off. But you could do it with a PrC. (And I think that would be a pretty nifty combo.) Same with Sorcerer/Rogue or Fighter/Wizard.
It's ultimately the DM's choice, but I would suggest you examine at the individual PrC before telling your player s/he can't take a PrC. The one restriction I think is invariably wise is to force the player to follow the PrC all the way through instead of dipping for one or two levels. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
|
kestrel.ca
Underboss
1684 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 10:04 AM |
| For the most part, IMO there are very few PrC that are overpowered. I have most of the WotC books and so have access to a LOT of PrC yet there aren't any that appeal to my two characters at the moment (Goliath Fighter & Dwarven Druid). In every case, the PrC class gives up too much of what makes the character who he is. Then again, these are the first characters I've started at level 1.
I've frequently used PrCs when I start a character at a higher level. I really enjoy playing my Arcane Trickster and my Geomancer/Mystic Theurge. Are they overpowered? Not usually, and only in specific situations do they really shine. Perhaps my point is that the PrCs are great for gaining specific abilities, but don't seem to work as well for more organic PC's...at least in my campaigns. | |
Completed Trades/Transactions: 94 || Bad Trades: 3 (Chaotic Good x2, MackeyV) | |
|
YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 10:24 AM |
| In my friend's campaign, there is a guy who wanted to play a Dwarven Fighter/Cleric/Fist of Raziel. When we all looked at the class, it looked like an amazing power-gaming class because of the progression of fighter HD and BaB with Cleric spells.
However, giving up the few levels of spell advancement really made an impact on the character.
He's starting to hit his curve now at level 13, but, for a long time in the middle levels, he didn't have enough spells, speed, or hitting power to compete with the other spellcasters or other fighters of the group on even footing.
As he grows in power with the PrC, there are more and more times that his aura, smites, or other powers are making an impact.
In contrast, I play a Half-Orc Monk. I had fortunate Stat rolls, but I've been playing a pure monk and buying various lower cost items that all stack when opportunity presents.
My Monk, and the pure Druid, were the strongest PCs through most of the middle levels. At level 14, my monk is finally dropping off a bit, (not weak, but simply becoming more survivable while the others become more effective in combat). The Druid is still the most powerful PC in the group with his buffing, offensive spells, wild shape combat, and animal companion. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
| 
Zenako
Commander
3469 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 11:45 AM |
| If not used wisely PrCs can really hamper a character down the road by cutting off various options or limiting other growth, and as noted, dropping a few spell casting levels may not seem like much, until you see how effective those max level spells are against certain CR foes when you reach mid to high levels.
In the game I play in we are now all around 16th level. Depending on the PrCs chosen, the character may well now be missing some BAB opportunities by being a point or two too low. Missing spells is always a drawback. The biggest consistent boon to multiple classes is the likely enhanced saving throws from the 1st level bonuses of many PrC's that exceed any other gain from a normal level up in an existing class. There is one character in our group who now has a total of 5 classes. He can do lots of little things, but falls short of the really cool things in any sequence. He started as a barbarian/ranger. (In our game you could only choose barbarian at first level since we all viewed it as almost a race thing more than a class of study.) He later added Foe Hunter, Tribal Protector, and something else I forget. Each gave his character something, but he has stopped short of gaining any unbalancing powers to this point.
In some ways the most powerful character is perhaps our essentially single class Shugenja. She can seriously affect the outcomes of many battles (assuming she gets past the SR or immunities of the enemy), but does have some limits.
The DM does restrict or modify access to many PrC's and you need to make a case that it fits with the character and his/her background as well. For example, a couple of the Sohei characters ended up taking the Templar PrC instead of continuing as higher and higher level Sohei. My character for example is 5th level Sohei, 8th level Templar and 4th level Samurai (Birth Class and they then sent me to Sohei school to try and curb my impetuous behavior). (All characters started play as 2nd level characters in this campaign.) | |
Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project....
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Zenako last updated 29 May 2006
Set Status: in a nutshell = all of all
In Process trades 0), (Sig last updated 05/29/06) 300 plus Completed Trades -
If I seem scarce at times...blame DDO - Sarlona | |
|
Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 2:44 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
If not used wisely PrCs can really hamper a character down the road by cutting off various options or limiting other growth, and as noted, dropping a few spell casting levels may not seem like much, until you see how effective those max level spells are against certain CR foes when you reach mid to high levels.
Depending on the PrCs chosen, the character may well now be missing some BAB opportunities by being a point or two too low. Missing spells is always a drawback. The biggest consistent boon to multiple classes is the likely enhanced saving throws from the 1st level bonuses of many PrC's that exceed any other gain from a normal level up in an existing class.
One time, as a goof, I made up a character where I tracked to stack as many different classes on one body as I could. I think I got to 25 different classes, upwards of 30 if I allowed alignment changes at fortuitous times. The level 25 (Fighter 1/Ranger 1/Monk 1/Druid 1/Sorceror 1/Wizard 1/Cleric 1/....) ended up having a BAB of 8 or so, a whole bunch of 1st level spells, and really high saves. [:P]
edit: for comparison, I think an epic level commoner is more powerful in almost every respect. [:P] | |
"Why am I all sticky and naked? Did I miss something fun?"
-Vindicated champion of Tordek, Dwarf Champion | |
| The Mighty
jai
Commander
3235 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 3:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fry
edit: for comparison, I think an epic level commoner is more powerful in almost every respect. [:P]
Give him a Rod of Wonder and a Deck of Many Things and you are right! [)] | | | |
|
uncdevil
Sergeant
397 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 4:22 PM |
| | My DM has ultimate say, of course. But why assume that PrCs are broken? It's not like the PCs are the only one with access to them. Most of the NPCs we go up against in my party are specialists of one sort or another. In other words, lots of PrC'd monsters and baddies. | |
have/want | email | references
Harbinger: 80/80 | Dragoneye: 60/60 | Archfiends: 60/60
Giants of Legend: 72/72 | Aberrations: 60/60 | Deathknell: 59/60 | Angelfire: 50/60 | |
|
FeranEldritchKnight
Sergeant
385 Posts
Kansas City, MO USA
| | 11/23/2005 12:18 AM |
| | I would like to disagree that PrCs make players focus on stats and min/maxing. In my campaign, my wife's wizard was greatly influenced by a church organization. This caused her to seek out the Arcane Devotee PrC solely for the roleplay reasons, not because of the benefits it would yield. | |
Completed trades: Gausse, Mazra, Pagansexy, Galerians, Lord_Raven, Drakkengi, Temujinn x2, Random Sasquatch, elf_ranger, Azuretide, Hung4treason, Griffrat (face2face), Nasamonkey
Carpe Forum! | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
12441 Posts
The G Spot
| | 11/27/2005 4:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Pale Rider
Prestige classes are just another tool and i find it amusing some consider them cheating :rolleyes:
I agree. They are in the rules, they are legal therefore they are not cheating. Balance is another issue but I think some are a little too obsessed with balance.
I don't as a rule disallow PrC's unless they are setting specific. I know they can still be modified to fit whatever setting you are using, but as a dm I have enough to do without converting a PrC for a player. On the other hand, if the player wants to give the conversion a shot, then I might allow that. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
12441 Posts
The G Spot
| | 11/27/2005 4:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by FeranEldritchKnight
I would like to disagree that PrCs make players focus on stats and min/maxing. In my campaign, my wife's wizard was greatly influenced by a church organization. This caused her to seek out the Arcane Devotee PrC solely for the roleplay reasons, not because of the benefits it would yield.
I can identify with this. I once played a sorcerer (named Ghendar, btw) who was a fanatical Kossuth worshipper. He went the Arcane Devotee route for the same reason. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM | |
|
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 11/27/2005 5:41 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Personal opinion coming through.
I don't like many of the base classes; I wish the BASE classes were more mundane and rather things like the Paladin were prestige. Yeah yeah they are balanced, but they just don't feel right to me.
I'm also stuck on the sorcerer. There's basically no need for a sorcerer to stay in the class ... with no higher-level abilities if there's a PrC that has spell progression you may as well take it and get the extras.
I agree there. Paladin/Ranger/Bard should all be prestige classes. Barbarian should be closer to a racial choice not a class. Im keen on the EQ2 class system. With base classes that advance to more specialized classes. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
|
ickthegreat
Warrior
291 Posts
| | 11/27/2005 5:56 PM |
| | Having read all this post, I have one thing to say the Mystic thurege is quite powerful. I have played one and after reaching epic level I relizied one thing there was not many many spells I could not cast or copy their effect somehow. The other thing about this PrC is that, to me, I wasting a lot of time between rounds to figure out what i was going to cast and then dicede if I could which class wizard or cleric I was going to cast it from. I had about 100 and something different spells per day to look at while in combat. It was a lot work, I will not try this PrC class any time in the future. | |
trades pending: (0)
everything is perfectly going out of control
| |
|
megamadrat
Sneak
126 Posts
| | 11/27/2005 6:45 PM |
| the funky trick of mystic theurge is going for the weird combinations with it too. Bard/Druid or maybe Sorcerer/Favoured Soul.
I disagree that PrCs are geared more for Roll players than Role players, many PrCs provide a character with a life goal or flavor or even a specialization that is not often attempted should there not be a prestige class to go for. | |
Einstein would turn in his grave;
God does play dice, and the dice are loaded!
My left nipple is in fact a horcrux.
Do not tweak the horcrux, it belongs to the Dark Lord! | |
|
ShadowLord XT
Commander
2637 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 11/27/2005 7:30 PM |
| I see PRCs as more NPC PRCs. Seriously, what PC in their right mind would want to become something like Lady of the Night, Geomancer, Divine Crusader of (God's name here), ect, ect. These are just some of the useless PC PRCs.
I have looked into good or fun PRCs for my Thri-Kreen Fighter, but I haven't found any (Well I was looking at Ghost faced Killer, but strayed away from that idea)
I have now decided on giving my Thri-Kreen the highest Will save he can muster so he can become at least 2 limbs of a Half Iron Golem. The only problem is GP. But of course I'm only lvl 1. | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
"This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun
"anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16 | |
|
kestrel.ca
Underboss
1684 Posts
| | 11/28/2005 10:01 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ShadowLord XT
I see PRCs as more NPC PRCs. Seriously, what PC in their right mind would want to become something like Lady of the Night, Geomancer, Divine Crusader of (God's name here), ect, ect. These are just some of the useless PC PRCs.
Actually I have a PC that is a sorceror/cleric/geomancer/mystic theurge! I started with the geomancer from "Masters of the Wild" to access both arcane & divine spells and when Mystic Theurge came out in 3.5 switched to that. He's quite a neat character to play with his weird geomancered features and his spell flexibility. However, as noted above, he's definitely not overpowered due to the loss of spell progressions. | |
Completed Trades/Transactions: 94 || Bad Trades: 3 (Chaotic Good x2, MackeyV) | |
|
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
| |
ActiveForums 3.7 | You must be signed in to participate in the
games. |