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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
    
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 1:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chris Orlando
I have a few veiws and am looking for some advice on how I should think of the following....
Just be aware that these threads almost always generate arguments. I personally like alignment in D&D, but -- unsurprisingly, as it deals with morality and ethics -- there is no consensus on what it means. Toss in the paladin's code, and it gets both more and less murky.
I think all of these below are fine for most paladins. Remember, paladins are paragons of Law. Issues of individual freedom should take a back seat to issues of greater good.
quote:
First. Wizard castes dominate person (on evil being)into surrendering
Personally I am ok with that.
Second. Wizard castes dominate person (on evil being)into attacking their allys
I dont know how to feel about this issue, im leaning twards not likeing it (advice please)
Third. Wizard castes dominate person (on nuetral being)into surrendering.
Advice please
Fourth. Wizard castes dominate person (on nuetral being)into giving us information.
Advice please
The below, on the other hand, I wouldn't want to see, as the player of a paladin, depending upon the actions the Neutral character is engaging in. Remember, alignment isn't tattooed on foreheads, and even if it were, a Neautral character can easily remain so while committing the occasional Evil act.
quote:
Fifth. Wizard castes dominate person (on nuetral being)into giving us surrerendering/ attacking his own comrads.
Advice please
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 11/22/2005 1:54 PM |
| Hey Chris,
Sorry for the off topic post, but you need to update our trade on the trade interface. Sorry to be a nag...[:)]
LM
As to the thread topic, I largely agree with what Wayne said. For points 1-4 I could see a paladin justifying that use of the spell provided the wizard doesn't use dominate person to promote evil. Point 5 would really be situationally dependant. If the neutral NPCs were threatening innocents or the part, Ok. If they don't pose a threat that's another issue. | |
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| Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 11/23/2005 5:47 PM |
| | I agree with aforementioned decisions. One thing you may want to start doing as a DM is to give your creatures higher will saves to teach the wizard that relying on one kind of spell is extremely boring for the party, you, and does NOT have to be tolerated by either side. | |
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megamadrat
Sneak
126 Posts
| | 11/23/2005 8:49 PM |
| If you are the DM, I suggest you take a very good look at Spell Turning
PHB page 282 or thereabouts
I think we can safely assume that your party dominator is stat maxing and so he could be in for a rough ride having to save against his own DCs | |
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Zenako
Commander
3469 Posts
| | 11/23/2005 9:10 PM |
| First the obvious, whenever the dominated creature is commanded to do something "against its nature" it gets another saving throw at +2 to save. Now this "against its nature" clause can be an easy wiggle to reduce the power of the spell and its otherwise apparently game breaking nature. It is up to the DM to determine what and how often new saves get triggered until the eventual save occurs.
Now as to alignment of the victims of the spell, it is very hard to really prejudge what those are in most campaigns these days unless everyone has forehead stickers on them. So it would be hard to KNOW someone is Evil, or Neutral or whatever before some spells are cast or Paladin spidey senses used. So the alignment of the victim is really secondary to the act of complusion being exerted by the wizard. The wizard is compelling another being to act against its own will and volition to do the wizards bidding.
Now assuming you are playing a classic by the book Lawful GOOd paladin then you probably should have some issues with anyone compelling another being to their will involuntarily. Domination and Charm and the like are not intrinsically good acts. This is of course countered by the proposition that in a world with existant evil and the like that a variety of methods can be employed to defeat the evil beings. At the end of the battle dead is dead. Much like poison is often considered to be evil, is it not just another way to deal damage to the victim like a morning star could? or a magic missile spell or a ray of enfeeblement? Overlaying good or evil onto methods of combat and battle is a non-trivial task. In a life or death battle, are no holds barred or would you restrict yourself to boxing using Marguis of Queensbury rules and proper boxing/fighting technique. What is fair to use? What is not fair? If you fight using unfair tactics, whom does it harm?
Something like Poison might be Illegal, but not Evil and for that reason a Paladin would avoid its use or associating with others engaged in illegal activities.
If I were the Paladin I would probably not have an issue with anyone who was taken out of the battle by surrendering or something like that, but anyone being compelled to act against themselves or their previous allies (as vile as they may be) would be unacceptable. In some ways this renders the spell not much more useful than a Hold person would be, but that is one of the drawbacks to having a paragon of virtue amongst the company of the characters. | |
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mordantos
Underboss
1210 Posts
| | 11/25/2005 4:55 PM |
| Jeez, just do what we do- send the Paladin out of the room before doing the nasty stuff [)]
Wiz: Hey, anyone here opposed to torture?
Wiz: Right. Why don't you guys go check on the horses? Oh, and ignore any noises you hear. I've got a um,...kink in my back, and as I stretch out, I am likely to scream.
Wiz: Okay, I got the info we need.
Paladin: Where is the prisoner?
Wiz: Oh. Um, he was so helpful I decided to let him go.
Paladin: So why do you still have his stuff?
Wiz: Well, he really wanted to get home quick so he gave me his stuff so he could run without a penalty...
[}:)] | | | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 11/25/2005 6:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by mordantos
Jeez, just do what we do- send the Paladin out of the room before doing the nasty stuff [)]
Wiz: Hey, anyone here opposed to torture?
Wiz: Right. Why don't you guys go check on the horses? Oh, and ignore any noises you hear. I've got a um,...kink in my back, and as I stretch out, I am likely to scream.
Wiz: Okay, I got the info we need.
Paladin: Where is the prisoner?
Wiz: Oh. Um, he was so helpful I decided to let him go.
Paladin: So why do you still have his stuff?
Wiz: Well, he really wanted to get home quick so he gave me his stuff so he could run without a penalty...
[}:)]
Wow... the paladin must in your group must have a 6 Int or so.
The original poster asked about this from the position of a player not a GM. If I were playing a Paladin, there are certain types of magic that I would have problems with: alot of Necromancy spells, the use of Dominate Person on a Neutral Person for information are just two examples. A Paladin is supposed to be the poster child for all the good virtues. No they are not stupid and recognize the need to defeat evil and can reconcile with alot of tactics... but there are certain lines that shouldn't be crossed:
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salmander
Sneak
140 Posts
| | 11/26/2005 5:59 PM |
| | I believe a Paladin, who turns a blind eye to torture, is just as guilty as one who committed the act. | |
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ickthegreat
Warrior
291 Posts
| | 11/26/2005 6:42 PM |
| our group as a similer problem, but it is not the the paladan. our is the lg monk.
this is who he deals with those issues:
First. Wizard castes dominate person (on evil being)into surrendering
Personally I am ok with that.
He agrees with this
Second. Wizard castes dominate person (on evil being)into attacking their allys
I dont know how to feel about this issue, im leaning twards not likeing it (advice please)
this one he made a comment about this to the caster it was something likes this "you know if you are going to do that you might as well kill him yourself. what arfe planning on doing after the fight with me anywhy, let him go....?"
Third. Wizard castes dominate person (on nuetral being)into surrendering.
Advice please
he is ok with this one less person that died at his hands.
Fourth. Wizard castes dominate person (on nuetral being)into giving us information.
Advice please
he is ok with this as long it helps the party out with story, and only if it is used as the last resort.
Fifth. Wizard castes dominate person (on nuetral being)into giving us surrerendering/ attacking his own comrads.
Advice please
this one was hard for him buit he said one thing and the wizard never did this one again " would like this to happen to you. think about that the next time you do that."
what made this lillte thing even worse is that the caster was LE. so he was on a power trip. | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 3:44 PM |
| One of my favorite character classes to paly is a paladin! This is an area that many DMs have differed on as I play, but I try to play it the same as I see the LAWFUL GOOD Paladin as some one who stands up for others, follows the law, and attempts to keep everyones best intrests at heart.
The first point: surrending can saves lives, the person can then be turned over to the authorities to be dealt with appropriately.
Second Point: I don't like it. What do you do with the person after battle, kill a dominate person?!? No way!
Third Point: see first point, same opinion
Forth Point: I would prefer other methods, but if it ment that the information could save lives or stop some other horrible deed, then yes get the information through a nonviolent (torture is not an option) means.
Fifth Point: see second point.
I think that that character who is casting the spells should be careful not to run into something that reflects his spells back at him, turn spell or other wise. | |
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Mrfurious
Warrior
344 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 5:20 PM |
| I just think this is a bit odd. If the wizard had just disintegrated the guy or blew him up with an empowered fireball, no one would really have any doubts about how a paladin would feal.
But dominate him into surrendering and its a big moral issue. Even though disintigrating him ends up with the opponent DEAD, and dominating into surrendering ends up with the opponent ALIVE.
I think most paladins would be ok with charm and compulsion magic, as they can end a combat with no one getting killed.
As for dominating for information, its a grey area and i guess it can vary from GM to GM. | |
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Zenako
Commander
3469 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 6:56 PM |
| This is where the means outweigh the results, when working with issues of morality and "goodness". In an objective sense, dead is dead when fighting an opponent, but why the widespread refusual to employ poisons to kill? One can argue that a poison is indiscriminate and can kill unwitting or innocent victims who accidentally get poisoned.
Now the use of compulsion magic to bend others to your will violates the premise of willing agreement with the premise of being good. Good should not need to force others to adhere to its tenants, such adherence should be willing and obvious to those of a good nature.
Compulsion magic is troubling to contemplate since everyone could put themselves into the shoes of the victim and find themselves forced to engage in acts contrary to their nature. Any being forced to act against its nature will feel violated.
Good is held to a different standard than "Evil" in that the means do matter, in many ways, more than the results do. That is the nonstop conumdrum facing every Paladin in a world where shades of gray exist. | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 9:36 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
Good is held to a different standard than "Evil" in that the means do matter, in many ways, more than the results do. That is the nonstop conumdrum facing every Paladin in a world where shades of gray exist.
Excellent point! A paladin has to adhere to a much more rigid structure in his life then someone evil, which can be a real challenge to play. It is not just a matter of turning the other check or turning a blind eye to something, but have the character life a life of high standards, good behavior, law abiding activities, etc.
One way I looked at my paladin character was that he was a protector of people who could not protect themselves. He did stick up for the rights of captured villians, to have them turned into the authorities. He also risked his own life to protect others. But that is just the way I played my character. | |
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