Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
    
 | |
Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 9:17 PM |
| First, I'm not really sure how this reduces the DM's workload. If the players don't know how to buy skills, chances are they're sketchy with all of the rules anyway, and the DM should be sitting down to "level up" with them.
Second, I do think it will lead to "cookie cutter" skill sets. No, you won't need to worry about fighters and clerics taking Disable Device or Sleight of Hand, or many other skills that have an armor check penalty, but you will see lots of fighters and clerics with very high Spot, Search, and Listen, and other high-frequency, high-value skills.
Finally, I don't think the change will break the game, nor weaken rogues. (IMO, while rogues may not be the most powerful class, they're a class that has the most chances to be the center of attention, and, again IMO, that's the true "power" in D&D.) I just think it will cost the game some flavor. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
| |
|
Jeb McDonald
Sergeant
403 Posts
Central New Jersey
| | 11/29/2005 9:21 PM |
| My initial reaction (which is this post) is making all skills class skills is a bad idea because several skills (spot, listen, search) come into play with great regularity. The paladin who gets only 2 points per level (and who probably puts ranks into some combination of ride, handle animal, heal, and diplomacy) may wind up being less "paladin-y" because of dumping skill points into spot and tumble. In terms of game balance, there is a reason why monks and rogues have tumble as a class skill, but fighters don't--fighters can absorb the AoO from the Frost Giant.
My secondary reaction is, "What makes keeping track of skill points so difficult?" | |
The man who thinks he can, and the man who thinks he can't are both right. Which one are you? | |
|
ickthegreat
Warrior
291 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 10:02 PM |
| i also argge that is would be a bad idea for many of the reasons already stated.
the main is the spot and listen checks made by everyone. if the game you are running or playing as something in it that everyone needs to notice, do not make them roll for it, just tell them.
the other main reason ithink it is a bad ideais the barbian. doing that would them out in pick up langueges that they can read/write. | |
trades pending: (0)
everything is perfectly going out of control
| |
|
Zenako
Commander
3469 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 11:23 PM |
| | Our DM did one thing that I think is not standard. He has ruled that once a character gets eligible for a given skill for one of his classes, that it remains effectively a class skill regardless of what character class the PC goes up in. Thus a rogue/fighter would have a whole bunch skills as class skills as a rogue. Now when the PC decides to advance as a Fighter, the charcter could put the points into any skill that the character knows at base cost, not only those skills that a fighter would get as class skills. | |
Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project....
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Zenako last updated 29 May 2006
Set Status: in a nutshell = all of all
In Process trades 0), (Sig last updated 05/29/06) 300 plus Completed Trades -
If I seem scarce at times...blame DDO - Sarlona | |
|
IHawk
Underboss
1054 Posts
Lisle, Illinois
| | 11/29/2005 11:27 PM |
| If you only have 3 or 4 players in your group i don't think that
it is a horrible idea. Like you said, there are a dozen or so arguments one way or the other, but allowing the PC's a chance to
be more rounded as a party with fewer players only helps the FUN level of the game and gives the DM more flexibility on the planning of his games.
An example...if there is no rogue, the wizard can take ranks in search and DD and be fairly effective at it, where without the rogue, you are pretty screwed. Now I am not saying this is the only example, but it is one that I am VERY familiar with in a home game of mine a few years back. None of the players wanted to play the rogue, so I as the DM had to accomodate that with my planning.
I don't know if i would have the same reaction if you regularly have 6 or 7 players in your game, but then again, if the fighter wants to take ranks in UMD or the Paladin wants to take ranks in sense motive, who cares, let him be what he wants to be.
Mark Kelly - Ihawk | |
mark - Champion of the Goblin Worg Riders | anteblue_at_yahoo_dot_com
IHawk's Have/Want List | IHawk's Trade List | Completed Trades - 214 | Pending Trades - 0
| |
|
Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 11:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
Our DM did one thing that I think is not standard. He has ruled that once a character gets eligible for a given skill for one of his classes, that it remains effectively a class skill regardless of what character class the PC goes up in. Thus a rogue/fighter would have a whole bunch skills as class skills as a rogue. Now when the PC decides to advance as a Fighter, the charcter could put the points into any skill that the character knows at base cost, not only those skills that a fighter would get as class skills.
Much better idea than tossing out cross class skills in genereal, but you loose some of the benefits of things like the Human Paragon who gets to keep two skills as always "in class." In dropping all cross class skills, what happens to restricted skills like "Use Magic Device" and Language skills. You are taking alot of the power out of Bard by making those available to any class. What fighter wouldn't want to pick up a few levels of Use Magic Device in addition to Spot and Listen?
| |
"Are you not entertained?" 
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
| |
|
Lead Moderator
LCS
Underboss
1899 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 12:08 AM |
|
You might also want to try keeping the maximum limit for cross class skills intact, and removing the double cost.
Like the version Zenako's group uses, it makes it easier for multiclass characters to advance skills that are necessary for the party's survival without having to spend all of their skill points on them at specific levels.
Most skills have a threshold where they are most useful, and keeping the cross class limits keeps the choice of class important, since the cross class limit still prevents other types of characters from getting the synergy bonus and other benefits as quickly as a member of a class that has the skill on its class list.
This also works better in groups that have more of an roleplaying focus, since it allows players to buy skills that fit their character concept when otherwise they would cost significantly more. If a player wants his or her fighter type to be reasonably well versed in religion, should it really require every available skill point to accomplish?
| | | |
|
Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 1:40 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IHawk
An example...if there is no rogue, the wizard can take ranks in search and DD and be fairly effective at it, where without the rogue, you are pretty screwed.
Well, you're still pretty screwed. Beyond the first couple of levels, most traps are at a high enough DC that non-rogues can't find them. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
| |
|
Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 1:41 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by LCS
If a player wants his or her fighter type to be reasonably well versed in religion, should it really require every available skill point to accomplish?
Nope. That's what Skill Focus is for. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
| |
|
Lead Moderator
LCS
Underboss
1899 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 2:18 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by LCS
If a player wants his or her fighter type to be reasonably well versed in religion, should it really require every available skill point to accomplish?
Nope. That's what Skill Focus is for.
With fighters as a possible exception, feats are an even more costly way to add flavor to a character.
Regrets later about feats spent for flavor instead of mechanics will make Jack a sad boy [:(]
| | | |
|
Mrfurious
Warrior
344 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 11:29 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by LCS
Regrets later about feats spent for flavor instead of mechanics will make Jack a sad boy [:(]
I am Jack's wasted feat. | |
Sanity is a one trick pony, my friend, . . .but when you're good and crazy the sky is the limit.
http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=mrfurious
braman@che.utexas.edu | |
|
orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 1:10 PM |
| I have a current character that is a life long miltary man, but profession is not a class skill for a fighter. My DM let me take prof(soilder) as a class skill because it suited my character. Allowing each player to chose at first level one cross class skill that has some reasonable explanation behind it seams fair.
Allowing all skills to be class skills would not work for a lot of reasons stated above. | |
Yes I am Gelatinous.
www.gelatinousdudes.com
| |
|
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10445 Posts
United States
| | 11/30/2005 2:17 PM |
| The DM in question is hoping to "streamline" the skills in his game, to make things easier for him. I think he wants to go the route of turning Hide and Move Silently into one skill, for example. As part of this crusade, he also wants to get rid of other complicating factors, and he sees cross-class skills as one such complication.
It's interesting what Zenako said, because this DM has had this same house rule since he adopted 3.0. He uses the "once a class skill, always a class skill" rule. There are prestige classes, and maybe some feats that get nerfed, but none of them are core and so his attitude is that it's not his problem--if the player doesn't want that prestige class or feat, don't take it.
I don't think a paladin is going to max out Spot and Tumble, with his 2 skill points every level. I mean, he could, if he wanted to, but then some of the other things that he might want to be good at are going to get tossed aside. And, this is what this DM is after. If you really, really want to play a Barbarian who maxes out his ranks in Perform (insult comedy) or whatever, then go right ahead. But, when you're trying to track a squirrel for breakfast and can't make your survival check, that's your fault.
[:)]
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
|
Mrfurious
Warrior
344 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 2:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
And, this is what this DM is after. If you really, really want to play a Barbarian who maxes out his ranks in Perform (insult comedy) or whatever, then go right ahead.
[:)]
Dave
"That's a great monster hoard . . . for me to poop on."
Krusk the Insult Comic Orc | |
Sanity is a one trick pony, my friend, . . .but when you're good and crazy the sky is the limit.
http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=mrfurious
braman@che.utexas.edu | |
|
Zenako
Commander
3469 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 4:49 PM |
| One reason the DM went the way he did with skills was that many characters looked like they would be going up as a couple of classes pretty evenly and it seemed weird to him that many of the skills that were being used all the time would get improved only every other level when the character went up as Class X. (This was also an OA based campaign and a number of "core like" classes were not available for characters. Also the DM STRONGLY encouraged all characters to begin with two classes (we began as 2nd level characters obviously). One class reflects the characters birth status (Barbarian (only available at 1st level), Aristrocrat, Samurai, (if of Noble lineage), or classes available for commoners (Rogue, Monk, Shaman, Fighter, Ranger..) The second class would reflect the characters training in recent times. So an Aristocrat could then become a Sorceror or Shugenja with various clan restrictions as well.
So some characters already had tons of skills as class skills already (Check out Aristocrat) thus the impact of keeping everything as class skill once the character had it was eligible was not that big. Most characters tend to stick their knitting so to speak since the higher level skill checks tend to require some serious levels of success to get the real nice results. | |
Built the addition for this addiction, now on to the "gaming table" project....
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Zenako last updated 29 May 2006
Set Status: in a nutshell = all of all
In Process trades0), (Sig last updated 05/29/06) 300 plus Completed Trades -
If I seem scarce at times...blame DDO - Sarlona | |
|
Red Ranger
Sergeant
708 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 1:29 PM |
|
I went so far as to incorporate the Iron Heroes skill system complete with groups into my Age of Worms campaign. I just got tired of trying to get the group into 'roleplaying' encounters only to have them just start beating on stuff because they've spent all their meager skill points on being able to climb a rope and swim barely well enough to save their collective butts from death and noone took enough ranks in diplomacy to be able to talk their way out of a wet paper bag. So far they're third level and there have been no problems. The characters are more developed within the story and can perform competently in dangerous situations.
Besides, 'a few ranks' in use magic device does no one any good unless they enjoy being blown up by a wand of magic missile. Using a wand is DC 20 + spell level, right? That's a hefty investment for a class that shouldn't have access to it anyway. So if that (or any other skill) is their character flavor, more power to them I say. | |
Champion of the Yeti
(large uncommon please!)
Assistant to the Regional Manager | |
|
LordStorm
Sneak
133 Posts
Columbus Ohio
| | 12/01/2005 10:06 PM |
| I think messing with cross class skills does reduce reason to take some classes. I also don't see how it reduces complexity for a DM.
Do think that the amount of skills given to all the classes is too small. If I were running a home campaign right now I'd give all classes/P classes a 2 extra skill points to spend per level. This lets all the classes have a couple of meaningful skills. | |
Lord Storm | |
|