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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
    
Québec
 | | 12/06/2005 12:17 PM |
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How can I prevent the flanking of my large and huge characters ? My PC's are a Paladin, a Samurai and a crazy warforged cleric that fights in melee as well plus the oriental enchantor now has haste...which is an amazingly strong spell. Any advice ? | |
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Cthulhufnord
Warlord
10994 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 12/06/2005 12:49 PM |
| Large and Huge characters? Well I'd consider getting them some reach weapons and possibly the Combat reflexes feat allowing them to take a whack at anyone entering their threatened area.
So if these guys are large and huge what races are they respectivly? | |
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BigBC
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 1:03 PM |
| | If they have a BAB +3 and Wisdom 19 they can have the 'Eyes in the Back of Your Head' feat which takes away flanking bonuses of your attackers. It's in Sword and Fist. I wouldn't do it for every creature though or you'll piss off your players. Also, why do you want to take it away from them? If they are properly using tactics provided to them, they should be rewarded not punished. We've got a guy in our group who was flanking an opponent and instead hit the guy who was next to the flanked enemy. We still don't know why because it looked like that was what he was maneuvering to do. (?) | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 12/06/2005 1:07 PM |
|
Oh, my monsters are, not my level 7 players. The Grey Render did not hit a single one of them and only his 170 hit points were worthy of a CR higher than 5. I was very dissapointed. Oh, and my current encounters take place on open roads, so the only possible covers would be stones, I am guessing. I also plan on having them face a Behir saturday. Three
Tsunos were a good challenged though, they almost killed the Cleric and got in more than a few hits on the two "tanks". I max out player and monster hit points as a rule. They are in Rokugan now and going into the Outerworld next. Now I will be able to use the Onis, Mwhahaha !
So, I should add the Combat reflexes feat to all my monsters ? Any other suggestions ? Oh, and thanks Cthulhufnord. | |
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 1:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned
So, I should add the Combat reflexes feat to all my monsters ? Any other suggestions ? Oh, and thanks Cthulhufnord.
This is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard. As stated above, flanking is just good tactics. If you give every monster you have combat reflexes, it will quickly frustrate your players and make the game less fun. Plus, just from a simple viewpoint, not sure I could see a Grey Render having Combat Reflexes. Just not in character for them (though a Behir would have more "Snakelike" actions if you used it there). | |
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B
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 3:11 PM |
| | Hmm...the easiest ways to prevent flanking is to make the creature either immune to flanking, or more mobile than the pc's. Flight can take away any possibility of flanking by earthbound creatures. Ride by attack and spring attack allow your npc's/monsters to "stick and move" to avoid flanking. Give a few levels of rogue to some enemies and watch the pc's squirm when they are flanked in return. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 3:23 PM |
| | Flanking is only +2 to hit for all these non-rogue characters in your game, I really doubt that's the deciding factor in combat all that often. | |
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BigBC
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 3:53 PM |
| | Why don't you have some creatures that have supernatural abilities such as blink or etherealness that takes away from the players ability to hit or gives them a miss chance. Again, not all creatures they encounter should be able to do this since it's taking away from their fun if they almost never get a hit on them. It could provide a little balance though if you feel none of the enemies you use have a chance right now. | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 4:39 PM |
| I agree with reezel. DMs shouldn't actively metagame against their PCs so often. If they are smart enough to employ flanking tactics to gain a +2 to hit or so the rogue can do sneak attack damage, they should be rewarded.
I'm not adfvocating letting all your monsters fall to flanks. But you also shouldn't have every monster suddenly gain a counter against flanking just because you know your PCs employ it.
From a "realism" standpoint, how would a monster like the Gray Render evolve to counter flanking anyway? Has it fought enough creatures in the past to have developed a physical counter? Or is it smart enough to employ tactics to keep away smaller foes?
I like to make sure that my monsters appear to develop naturally in a way that makes sense in the game world. For instance, I think it is perfectly reasonable for intelligent giants, like Fire Giants and Frost Giants, to sometimes take the feats "Eyes in the Back of Your Head," "Large and in Charge," and "Combat Reflexes." They've fought smaller folk before and encountered party group tactics. So they are prepared for it. They can make AoOs against PCs running in to flank them and then push them back, preventing flanks. However, a simple magical beast, like a Griffon, Gorgon, or Dire Tiger, wouldn't be aware or smart enough to have such tactics.
Just my 2 cents. | |
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| Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 5:33 PM |
| Deal with your players using flanking. If you suddenly prevent them from flanking every creature used, or if they have a counter to every movement toward them, the game dies. The fun has gone out the window. It's no longer PCs vs. Creatures/villians. It's Players vs. DM. Trust me, the players win every time. If they leave/quit, the DM has nothing to do.
I agree with IanB. Flanking isn't that great a thing to suddenly shut down. If you start making the ACs of your creatures too high, it'll also shut the game down.
The DM's job is to provide a fun environment for creative playing. Sure, you may kill the occasional player. That happens. However, there is rarely (really, ever) a good excuse for a TPK. Give them challenges, but don't make every encounter a chore. | |
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Cthulhufnord
Warlord
10994 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 12/06/2005 6:20 PM |
| Oh... I thought the question was for a bunch of large and Huge Paladin, Samurai and Cleric player characters....[:I]
Man and I thought you had given the Warforged Titan class levels in some crazy cracked out game.
Yeah, giving every monster combat reflexes is a bad idea, it realy does take the fun away from the players. Are you using the creatures reach to maximum effect, a smart monster might save his attack of oportunity on the skulking rogue.
Your player character group does not seem to include a rouge character it seems. I'd go with some etheral and construct encounters now and again to get them to re-think their tactics. | |
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| Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 7:04 PM |
| | You can still flank a construct for the attack bonus. You can't sneak attack it or get a critical, but you can surround it. | |
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| Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 7:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by BigBC
If they have a BAB +3 and Wisdom 19 they can have the 'Eyes in the Back of Your Head' feat which takes away flanking bonuses of your attackers. It's in Sword and Fist. I wouldn't do it for every creature though or you'll piss off your players. Also, why do you want to take it away from them? If they are properly using tactics provided to them, they should be rewarded not punished. We've got a guy in our group who was flanking an opponent and instead hit the guy who was next to the flanked enemy. We still don't know why because it looked like that was what he was maneuvering to do. (?)
Oh, I've done things like this. You help the main melee guy flank the boss or whatnot so he gets the attack bonus. Then, you can put an attack on the guy next to them. Based on the situation, the rogue may have had a worse chance to hit the big guy (even with +2), so he decided to weaken the other guy.
It isn't a terrible strategy since it might cause the main guy to ignore the rogue for a round and concentrate on the big damage front line fighter. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 1:03 AM |
| Take a look at giving some of your opponents levels in Barbarian, a fifth level Barbarian can no longer be flanked. Having one large or huge opponent with Combat Reflexes is not a bad thing, but giving them all the same feat is kind of a pain in the ass. But if they don't have combat reflexes, they still should take a nice power attack on the first one to roll up on them, and remember that you can only tumble in light or no armor.
In our current game... we go against some pretty large oppenents. We use flanking alot and have a couple of people that do sneak attack damage. Two people in our group have high movement rates and good tumble skills so we move around and flank the big guys. I have a tendency to roll in first and take the attack of opportunity. Dodge, mobility and combat expertise adds up to a pretty good AC, but I still get smacked every now and again. In last week's game session, we went against a stone giant with fighter levels and combat reflexes. A nasty surprise when the second person rolled in.
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 12/07/2005 1:22 PM |
|
The problem is, they have 23 ( Paladin ), 24 ( Cleric ) and 26 ( Samurai ) AC's and the
Enchanter is casting haste every fight now, so they get a +3 to flank attacks, extra mobility and are hard to hit. Haste has been empowered WAY too much in 3.5, it should give AC and not attack bonus plus a free full-bonus attack. That is just insane. I want to hit them too and they are already strong enough not to need the flanking bonus. Plus, it is no longer a tactic, they do it everytime. Smaller monsters are usually too weak, so I pull out the big guns to challenge them. Why is everyone "blaming" ME ? I am asking
help, not insults to my intelligence. I am used to 2nd Edition where large and huge monsters were actually powerful. The Grey Render is a joke... | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 5:10 PM |
| I don't mean to blame you. I just think you are taking this a little personally. It's not you against the PCs. You aren't hitting the PCs. The monsters you run are. [)]
Having said that, there are plenty of things you can do to beef up your encounters if you think they are too easy for your PCs.
With regards to flanking in particular, here are things you can do:
-Create more flying encounters. Enemy creatures that can fly will be much harder to flank unless your wizard/sorcerer has fly and casts it on the party. And if he uses fly in this encounter, he doesn't have haste or offensive spells in the next one. It looks like your party is mainly melee focused as well. Flying enemies that strafe from above and require missile weapons to defeat will really throw your PCs for a loop.
-Use constructs, elementals, and undead. Large and Huge ones even. Elementals are immune to flanks and all can't be sneak attacked.
-If you worry about hitting your PCs, create encounters where the enemies can complement each other. For example, you could have a necromancer/conjurer hiding behind a wall of tough undead/elementals. Space them out so that the minions block for the spellcaster, who can cast true strike every round on the undead or elemental. Then, the undead or elemental can take a modest power attack and still hit reliably while striking for significant damage. Include spells and autodamage abilities.
-Don't overdo it though. You should create a variety of encounters. These ones that I mention make sense and don't require any rules-jiggering by adding feats or special items to creatures to thwart the PCs.
Good luck. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 5:36 PM |
| Hmm. The render has a bite attack at +15. It shouldn't be especially hard for it to hit an AC of 23 (needs an 8, 6 on a charge.) A sucessful bite attack starts a grapple, and the render's grapple of +20 will usually beat any level 7 PC's grapple check. Once the render has someone grappled, AC doesn't matter any more and it will do a lot of damage to that person via rending.
Haste, in 3.5 form, is actually the weakest version of haste there's ever been. They only get the extra swing on a full attack, and the boost to AC is much smaller than it used to be (it was +4 under 3.0 rules.) As the grey render is a large creature with reach, it should be able to use 5 foot steps each round to ensure that not every character is getting a full attack on it. The spell really isn't overpowered.
Maxing out player and monster HPs screws up game balance to a degree, too. Remember the CR system is designed so that the monsters are doing damage that is balanced against characters with normal stats/HPs. Any changes you've made that change that change the balance. Because monsters tend to have higher constitutions than players, maxxing HPs for both sides is a balance change in favor of the players, who see a larger relative gain than the monster does.
For example, let's say we've got a 7th level fighter with a 16 con (seems reasonable.)
Normal average hp are 10 (max hps at level 1) +6d10 (rolls for 2 through 6) + 21 con bonus, for 64 hps. You're giving out max hps, so the fighter will have 91 hps instead. You're giving basically a 42% boost in hps to the fighter with your max hp rule.
Compare to the grey render. A by the book render has 125 hps. Your render has 170 hps. You've only given the render a 36% boost in hps.
Players are getting a bigger power boost compared to monsters, so you're running into problems.
Also, how is your level 7 samurai player getting to AC 26? It sounds possible that either player stats are overly high in your game or you've given out too much treasure for their level, or both. Either of these issues will screw up the CR system as well. | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 5:43 PM |
| | Man, I must not read carefully. Bozak said he is giving monsters and PCs max HP in his game? | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 6:14 PM |
| I just found another danger sign:
quote:
Enchanter is casting haste every fight now,
A level 7 wizard or wu jen has 2 3rd level slots per day, base, and goes up to 3 slots per day with an int of 16. I assume since you're calling him an enchanter, he's not a specialist transmuter or a sorcerer, so that's the most number of hastes he could be doing in one day unless you've gone really insane on the stats/treasure and he has an intelligence of 24+. I guess he might be memorizing haste in 4th level slots, but that would be foolish imo.
If you only have 3 or less fights in a day, then you're giving your players another advantage compared to the 'default' rules, IMO. More fights in a day will force your players to decide which buffs to use when and will increase the overall challenge level.
Feathers: yes. "I max out player and monster hit points as a rule." | |
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MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 12/07/2005 6:34 PM |
| As soon as someone starts flanking, that poor unfortunate PC is the recipient of *every* attack the monsters can muster.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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| Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 10:17 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
As soon as someone starts flanking, that poor unfortunate PC is the recipient of *every* attack the monsters can muster.
Cheers!
This isn't always a viable tactic and tends to look like intentional character targeting before too long. What if the Rogue is engaging something, and the fighter moves into flank? You start attacking the fighter, who can take the hits far better, leaving the rogue to start landing sneak attacks.
Not all monsters are intelligent enough (if piloted properly) to just switch tactics and attack whoever just started flanking it. Until that other character hits it, it can also ignore that character. Once it's attacked, things change. | |
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MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 12/07/2005 10:31 PM |
| quote:
What if the Rogue is engaging something, and the fighter moves into flank?
It's a fast fighter who consistently does that. [)]
Regardless, 4 PCs vs 1 enemy will always benefit the PCs significantly. It's why I prefer pairs or groups of enemies in many cases. The exceptions are those enemies that are very touch and have surprising abilities.
Constructs and Undeads also work against such simple tactics. Drowned and Sand Golems in particular!
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 12/08/2005 4:57 PM |
|
Great suggestions guys, and an extra 25% monster hit points could bode well, especially for the upcomming young adult Cheng Lung Dragon, who already has over 200 by the book. And yes, they were asking for more undead, but how can an undead prevent flanking ? Are they immune to it ? I know they are immune to criticals...and yes, I should include more fights per day but I have monsters that do a lot of damage, my group of 3 CR 6 Tsunos was highly successful.
Oh, and the Samurai has a +2 Samurai Armor and 17, to explain his AC ( I gave them high stats so they would not die too soon ). I also forego the Max Dex bonus on armors
and was thinking adding AC to monsters as well. Elements are also a neat idea, thanks Merric. And I guess I did not see the Render's special attack, no...actually I rolled awfully and never touched any of them...I was only getting 20's on Iniative with my orange dice from the Miniatures Starter Set. It only gives good scores on initiative for some reason, LOL
Here is hoping the Chull, Bulette, Behir and Ancient Arrawak will prove more of a challenge. I do have a Warforged army encounter with Warriors and Mages soon that will make it worthile. Four versus 15 or 17 sounds right, unless I add a hero to that, as a commander,hehe. [}:)] | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 5:08 PM |
| | OK, see, that's the problem. You've thrown out a whole bunch of rules that end up breaking the CR system. CRs don't work when you give PCs max hps, high stats, throw out armor dex modifiers, etc., because they're written with all those things in mind. If you make the PCs in your game much more powerful than they should be, then of course you'll have trouble using the CR system to find challenges. | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 5:14 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned
Oh, and the Samurai has a +2 Samurai Armor and 17, to explain his AC ( I gave them high stats so they would not die too soon ). I also forego the Max Dex bonus on armors
and was thinking adding AC to monsters as well. Elements are also a neat idea, thanks Merric. And I guess I did not see the Render's special attack, no...actually I rolled awfully and never touched any of them...I was only getting 20's on Iniative with my orange dice from the Miniatures Starter Set. It only gives good scores on initiative for some reason, LOL
2 things:
1. If you give your PCs high stats and bend the rules to benefit them, you should expect them to be even tougher for your by-the-book monsters to defeat. It's no wonder then that you have trouble with them sometimes, because you made them stronger!
2. I would not recommend you get rid of the max dex penalty for armors. Doing that accomplishes a few things:
-Makes it unfair for those classes that don't have access to medium and heavy armors. The high dex of rogues, bards, rangers, etc. somewhat offset the superior armor that fighter types could wear. Now you discard that balancing factor by allowing the fighter types to benefit from both high armor and good dex.
-Removes more of the decision making that goes into choosing which suit of armor to wear. Some players might have chosen lighter armor despite it's lower AC bonus because it afforded them more mobility. Now, you set up a situation where everyone will simply wear full plate or o yori if they can get it.
I'm actually all for reducing a dex penalty for armor, but only with feats. I think it is perfectly reasonable to introduce a feat that mitigates the dex penalty for a chosen type of heavy armor. This then makes it a player choice with an associated and appropriate cost.
Of course, at the end of the day, I am just a purist DM and an anal one at that. So take what I say with a grain of salt.
It's just, I DM one of my best friends and we don't get to play often. I don't want him to die but I want to challenge him. So I do give him better than avg hp (I let him reroll 1s and 2s) and he does have higher stats (we do the 5d6 roll method). But I know I've set him up enormously. I just don't complain about it when I see him tearing through monsters. Instead, I monkey around with things and make it tougher. I know what I got myself into, and I'm fine with it. It's a side campaign that we play maybe 2-3 times a year, so it's fun. My real campaign is pretty tough and does not enjoy such DM largesse.
For your campaign, where it sounds like it's more regular and frequent, you might not want the campaign to get that out of control. So step back and always look at the ramifications of the decisions you make, especially as they could have far reaching consequences as you grow into the really high levels. | |
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mordantos
Underboss
1210 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 5:25 PM |
| You want to prevent flanking? Have a lot of items that need to be taken care of at the same time- that way the party can't gang up.
Be it multiple monsters, a villian escaping while the big bad attacks the party, the princess in immediate and dire peril etc. [}:)]
Our easiest encounters were ones where we could prep and focus on a single issue. Conversely, the toughest are when so much **** is flying we have to prioritize and split the party.... | | | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 5:54 PM |
| I want to give a shout out to my homey, IanB, who seems to see D&D like I do, even if we've never played RPG together.
I don't want to appear as though it's us D&D purists poo-pooing your homebrew campaign.
If it's fun for you and your friends, then play however you want. But don't look to the rules to help you, since you've obviously departed from them significantly.
It just looks to me like you might soon get into a situation where your game will spiral out of control, if it hasn't already.
If it suits you, you might think about restarting and just using the rules straightup and see how much or less fun that is.
And one final thing: before you change the rules, make sure you understand them entirely.
The CR system is especially something you want to look at. Even the designers themselves didn't get it 100% right, so understand what it is meant to do and why. If you come from a 1Ed/2Ed background, the CR can be especially troublesome to wrap your head around for new DMs. It's not just about the hit dice of your monsters vs your players. It's about treasure, expected level of wealth, expected HP, expected abilities, number of encounters per day and so forth. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 6:16 PM |
| | And don't get me wrong, house rules aren't a bad thing in and of themselves. There are tons of them in the games I play in. The trick is compensating for them, and maybe picking ones that don't have as extreme an effect on game balance as 'no more dex cap on armor.' | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 12/08/2005 7:03 PM |
| Back to the original topic, some battlefield techniques that can help stop flanks:
1) Send larger groups of weaker creatures against the PCs. They can cover each other's backs, and even if one gets flanked, the rest are not flanked ...
2) Try attacking from differetn heights. A winged beast that swoops down and bites at the party with a flyby attack is hard to flank ...
3) Use traps. A field favorite of mine in ambush situations is to have the bad guy archers line up against the edge of a covered pit. When the rogue comes in to tumble through them and flank them, he has to deal with the pit, which gives the rogue a chance to show off his stuff against traps) while at the minimum limiting flanking options.
4) Your PCs are fighting in an open field? How far apart are they when the battle begins? Do your monsters have ranged attacks? Don't ignore ranged aspects of combat ...
5) Use counter tactics. Leave the PCs an ideal place to move into to flank an enemy ... but that simultaenously will leave the PCs flanked as well.
6) Grapple, Awesome Blow, Bull Rush, etc ... can all be used to remove one half of the flank.
7) Have you ever driven through the Midwest? It is just a lot of wide open space ... but there are things in that space. Don't be afraid to include field obstacles (rocks, buildings, old carts, etc ...) that can block off flank opportunities.
8) Tumble is always a possibility for intelligent foes. Allowing an enemy beast to wiggle out without taking an AoO can be a fun trick, if it isn't overused.
9) Does the party constantly use the same tactics? If so, when a bad guy gets away, make sure he is prepared the next time to deal with the tactics that the party has previously used.
10) Keep an eye (or eleven) out for creatures that are immune to flanking.
11) Don't forget the fodder! 20 kobolds are not a challenge for a 7th level party ... but when you throw them in with a hill giant, they can be used to block flanking positions, keep spellcasters from getting too close when casting that cone spell, etc ... | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 12/08/2005 9:23 PM |
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Well, I DM the way I would like to be DM'ed, and also my friend who is also sometimes my DM also thinks the DEX penalty is too harsh on fighters. Notice my party has no rogues, so the backstab option is out and they usually fail their tumbles.
I want to put bigger and badder monsters, but mage-types were crippled in terms of saves and hit points, so I always have to think about his mere 48 hit points. And I could jack up the breaths, ranged attacks and such as the paladin's +5 to saves and the three main caracter's hit points, I could actually use some tactics. With an enchanter, the risks of killing are very high, if I use a remotely decent monster or those Warforged Wizards mini's I have been dying to use...Or my 15 gnoll archers...traps are a good idea, as are the heights idea, although I do not know the rules of flying attacks yet. I suppose monsters could use ranged attacks on the front-liners as I usually place them quite far away from my PC's, unless they get surprised. I think I will unleash disguised ennemies on the sides to flank them back, that would work.. Besides a powerful Oni is awaiting them... | |
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119 completed trades so far...NB called shot: Medusa | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 11:32 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned
Well, I DM the way I would like to be DM'ed, and also my friend who is also sometimes my DM also thinks the DEX penalty is too harsh on fighters. Notice my party has no rogues, so the backstab option is out and they usually fail their tumbles.
The Max Dex bonus is supposed to harsh on fighters who choose to wear heavy armor, but it is very realistic and game balancing. If you have ever seen someone in full plate mail move around, they are slow, lumbering and clumsy. And you can't tumble in anything heavier than light armor anyway.
quote:
I want to put bigger and badder monsters, but mage-types were crippled in terms of saves and hit points, so I always have to think about his mere 48 hit points. And I could jack up the breaths, ranged attacks and such as the paladin's +5 to saves and the three main caracter's hit points, I could actually use some tactics. With an enchanter, the risks of killing are very high, if I use a remotely decent monster or those Warforged Wizards mini's I have been dying to use...Or my 15 gnoll archers...traps are a good idea, as are the heights idea, although I do not know the rules of flying attacks yet. I suppose monsters could use ranged attacks on the front-liners as I usually place them quite far away from my PC's, unless they get surprised. I think I will unleash disguised ennemies on the sides to flank them back, that would work.. Besides a powerful Oni is awaiting them...
I don't get it, you are asking for help to make things tougher, but you don't want it too tough or your Enchanter might die? For most intellegent enemies, spellcasters are usually the number one target. They are easier to kill and can lay down a whole lot of whoop azz very quickly. Most groups go to great lengths to protect their wizard... if your group doesn't then they should pay for that very serious tactical error. It should cost them 5000GP in diamond dust and a favor to a 9th level cleric. You have been given alot of really good suggestions, it is up to you if you want to threaten to actually kill one or more of your PCs. Personally I don't think I would have much fun in a game where no-one ever dies, but that is just my opinion.
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"Are you not entertained?"
Champion of the Common Bar Wench
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 12/09/2005 1:14 PM |
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He almost died once and I do plan on using magic soon, only one of my four players has enough gaming experience to deal with all this. | |
Please donate BLOOD at http://www.monstersgame.co.uk/ac=vid&vid=11018554
Champion Of Kaz the Minotaur Knight of ALL Draconians. Squire Of ALL Constructs
The number ONE fanatic Of Dread Guards ! I own 66 !!! And the GMR1 !!!
119 completed trades so far...NB called shot: Medusa | |
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