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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
    
Québec
 | | 12/12/2005 1:35 PM |
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I looked in the Player's Handbook and found nothing on flying combat, all I could see was a +1 to hit for the monster for being on higher ground. What are the rules regardind flying monsters in General ? They were faced with a perfect flyer, an Ancient Arrawak, that already has a killer attack bonus and always stays in flight in the deescription. I ruled that the PCs were at -4 to hit but still left the flanking bonus, was this correct ? If not, I would like to know how experienced DM's would have handled this. Maybe it should have been immune to total attacks and/or flanking ? Any thoughts ? | |
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Jeb McDonald
Sergeant
403 Posts
Central New Jersey
| | 12/12/2005 1:49 PM |
| Sir Bozak--Were the characters also flying? Was that why they were -4 to hit? Just wondering.
I'm pretty sure there is something in the DMG about the manueverability of flying creatures. For example, creatures with Average flying ability can't hover and and only turn 90 degrees per move action (I may have made that last part up!) where as good flying ability means hovering and the ability to turn 120 degrees per move action.
As far as I know (and I'm not looking), characters under the affect of a Fly spell don't have an negative modifiers to their attack rolls. Of course, the DM always get the final say. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2712 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 12/12/2005 1:49 PM |
| The information is in the DMG. Here is a link to the SRD version. Scroll down about half way.
http://www.geocities.com/sovelior/srd/carryingAndExploration.html | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/12/2005 1:52 PM |
| There is no penalty for them to attack the flying opponent. Not being able to reach them should be penalty enough.
You can find rules on flying in the DM's Guide, not the PHB.
Note that the flying creature needs to have flyby attack to make strafing attacks against your grounded PCs. If your arrawak has the hover feat or good/perfect maneuverability, it can stay in the air and make attacks. If not, it will have to land after making an attack on a PC.
If it has the flyby attack feat, it can move and attack and keep moving, thus staying out of reach. However, flyby attack does not negate AoOs. So if the creature does not have reach and flies down to attack, the PC gets an AoO as the arrawak leaves his threat range. The Adriot Flyby Attack feat (from Draconomicon) negates this AoO. A flying creature with reach also wouldn't provoke the AoO from a medium or small-sized PC.
So you can see how large+ flying creatures can really hose your players.
However, your PCs could just ready actions to chop at your flying creatures once they make an attack. But it would limit them to a single attack rather than a full atk. | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 12/12/2005 2:27 PM |
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The Ancient Arrawak had all those feats, perfect manoeuvrability, only the standard 1.5 meters and my players were not flying, of course. And what in blazes is AoOs ? Thanks for the link nyjastul69. No thoughts on the flanking ? | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2712 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 12/12/2005 2:29 PM |
| | AoO = Attack of Opportunity | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/12/2005 2:30 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned
The Ancient Arrawak had all those feats, perfect manoeuvrability, only the standard 1.5 meters and my players were not flying, of course. And what in blazes is AoOs ? Thanks for the link nyjastul69. No thoughts on the flanking ?
Attack of Opportunity. Sorry. I throw around the acronyms liberally. [)]
Flying in and of itself doesn't make you immune to flanking or full attacks. However, an arrawak hovering above your players wouldn't be able to be flanked unless 1 or both of its attackers were flying too. As for full attacks, in my post, I addressed that a little. By flying around and making flyby attacks, your arrawak and basically prevent your PCs from making full attacks and really put them at a disadvantage. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2712 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 12/12/2005 2:37 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by SBTD:
No thoughts on the flanking ?
I'm not sure what you mean. Who is being flanked?
quote:
Originally posted by Feathers:
If your arrawak has the hover feat or good/perfect maneuverability, it can stay in the air and make attacks. If not, it will have to land after making an attack on a PC.
I think the flyer could move and attack, then attack and move (the round after) without actually coming to rest. | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 12/12/2005 2:41 PM |
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So, they would have had their full attack bonus, without the flanking bonus and only able to attack once. How about a Dual Blade and a Samurai's Daisho ? Would they still roll for the two weapons in their attack ? | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/12/2005 3:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
I think the flyer could move and attack, then attack and move (the round after) without actually coming to rest.
Actually, I believe you are correct. Provided the creature moved its minimum forward speed. | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/12/2005 3:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned
So, they would have had their full attack bonus, without the flanking bonus and only able to attack once. How about a Dual Blade and a Samurai's Daisho ? Would they still roll for the two weapons in their attack ?
Well, I don't see how the characters could flank the arrawak. Since it is moving in 3D, two PCs on the ground on either side of it wouldn't actually be a flank.
As for the Dual Blade Samurai, you can only ready a standard action. So you only get one attack, since attacking with two weapons requires a full attack action. If the Arrawak hovered in front of him, then yes, he could attack with both blades. But if the arrawak is moving around and attacking via flyby attack, the samurai should only get 1 attack.
However, I know there is some prestige attack that lets a class attack with both his swords in 1 action. I forget what it is, but I believe it is the Iajitsu Master from Oriental Adventures. Are you talking about that feature? | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2712 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 12/12/2005 3:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Feathers:
Provided the creature moved its minimum forward speed.
I actually had that reference in my original post, which my computer ate on it's way to the boards. [:(!] I hate it when that happens. Aerial combats are fun, but very taxing on the DM in my experience. | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 12/12/2005 11:25 PM |
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The Samurai has a Daisho ( the short and the long ) a Katana and a Wakizashi, with the Dual-Weapon Combat feat and the Paladin a Dual-Blade, a Lajatang, if you prefer and Double weapons strike with both blades even after moving...So, to recap, one Samurai with two different weapons and a Paladin with a Lajatang ( double-blade ), both with Dual-Weapon Combat feat. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 12/13/2005 1:12 AM |
| EDIT: Probably shoulda read the whole thread ...
quote:
Originally posted by Feathers
Note that the flying creature needs to have flyby attack to make strafing attacks against your grounded PCs. If your arrawak has the hover feat or good/perfect maneuverability, it can stay in the air and make attacks. If not, it will have to land after making an attack on a PC.
Almost entirely correct. A flying creature can attack a PC at the end of its move, without Fly-By Attack, and without having to land. (Creatures in D&D don't (necessarily) literally freeze in place at the end of movement ... flying is no exception.)
For creatures with the lower maneuverability ratings, they do have to maintain a minimum forward speed or land. So if such a creature were only 10 feet from a PC, it would have to land after attacking, because it didn't -- and without Fly-By Attack, wasn't able to -- maintain the minimum required speed to stay in the air. | |
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Zenako
Commander
3469 Posts
| | 12/13/2005 8:27 AM |
| Flying combat is not that much different in resolution than fighting a mounted opponent would be. For the mounted opponent to attack and keep on moving requires certain feats, or else the movement stops when the swings occur, which of course will end up giving the PC's a chance to attack the mounted foe.
Getting only an Attack of Oppurtunity is not that weak, considering that the flying creature may also be limited to a single attack since it too moved more than 5' to attack. The core combat rules apply to all sides of a battle.
As for flanking, unless a character is also flying and can get to the oppoiste side of the foe, there will be no flanking. The penalty you applied against swinging up against a foe on higher ground is perhaps reasonable, but is something that is not generally used in this context from my experience. Usual situation is when you have small critters (Goblins, Bakemono, etc) attacking someone on a wall or mounted on a warhorse for example. They have problems effectively reaching far enough up to hit a target.
If the flying creature has the eqiuvalent of Spring Attack, then they could avoid the attack of opportunity from their target, but might still get hit by others if they get within reach.
Frankly the best attack against a flyer is to have some good archery abilities in the group.
If you want a real headache, have some mounted flyers in the combat.... | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 12/13/2005 2:34 PM |
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You must be a mind-reader Zenako...my Paladin wants a Griffon as a mount and based on what I read here, I will dissalow. I still think my characters deserved a huge penalty for not using ranged weapons against a flying opponent. The Paladin has throwing javelins and the Samurai a Daykyu...Oh, and on another topic, the person that suggested a 25% increase in monster hit points with my max HP campaign was dead-on, even my Kobold Sorceror had time to launch 2 Fireballs and nearly kill the Enchantor, finally forcing the Cleric to stop going to the front and constantly needing backup. The Behir was a nice challenge too, with a +4 AC adjustment :) | |
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Zenako
Commander
3469 Posts
| | 12/13/2005 4:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned
You must be a mind-reader Zenako...my Paladin wants a Griffon as a mount and based on what I read here, I will dissalow. I still think my characters deserved a huge penalty for not using ranged weapons against a flying opponent. The Paladin has throwing javelins and the Samurai a Daykyu...
naughty naughty Samurai for forgetting to use one of the special weapons that they are allowed to use.
As for the Paladin wanting a flying mount, I would not disallow it per se, but would insist that all the needed feats and skills be obtained to really use it for anything more than a bucking bronco ride. To really fight effectively from a mount, you need A) mounted combat, B) Ride by Attack, C) Something along the lines of Flying Combat (I recall a feat somewhere in one of the books about fighting from a flying mount.), D) some feat which also allows both mount and rider to attack the same target as well. They also need to either be able to speak with the creature and gets its willing cooperation, or somehow train the creature to fight and behave as you want it to. Controlling a mount in three dimensions will be that much harder than it is on just two dimensions like with a horse.
Cool toys and abilities are fine for a session or two, but if not balanced somewhat will very quickly make it very hard to control the outcomes of sessions without making them slaughter fests. Be careful. | |
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 12/13/2005 4:24 PM |
| | I beleive the DMG has "special mounts" like the griffon. They basically replace the mount with a lot less of the advancement potential. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 12/13/2005 4:50 PM |
| The DMG does indeed have info on Griffins as a special cohort. It is actually geared towards the Leadership feat, and puts a Griffin as the equivilant to a 10th level NPC. It goes over the Paladin Cohort Mount and gives an additional +2 level adjustment to the ECL for this due to the empathetic link and shared spells ability. It also says a Minimum of a +2 level adjustment. So a Paladin can get a Griffin (a usually Neutral creature) as a special mount, but not untill like 14th level. Actually, I personally would say 15th level because he would need to get a Celestial Griffin. And then it would advance on HD and so for as if the paladin were 11 levels lower than his actual level (much like the Druid and his animal cohort.)
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 12/14/2005 1:31 PM |
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Thank you Zenako and Malin Lug, I will warn him of the level and feats required to do so and was wondering myself how a neutral Griffon would fit as a mount... | |
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BigBC
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 2:52 PM |
| | Wait a minute, isn't a horse a neutral creature normally. Why would it be anymore impossible to get a griffon instead of a war horse. It's the fact that the paladin calls it from the celestial heavens that makes it the special creature it is. The DMG basically says you can't get the griffon until 8th level because of the HD difference between it and the 'normal' paladin mount. It works like the Improved Familiar feat, you still can't get certain creatures until higher levels because of their HD. I was planning to take a Dire Wolf as a special mount but wouldn't be able to get it until 6th level instead of the 5th level war horse. This also slows the special mounts progression accordingly. The Dire Wolf is normally a neutral creature, does this mean I shouldn't be able to call one at 6th level even the DMG says it's possible? | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 3:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by BigBC
Wait a minute, isn't a horse a neutral creature normally. Why would it be anymore impossible to get a griffon instead of a war horse. It's the fact that the paladin calls it from the celestial heavens that makes it the special creature it is. The DMG basically says you can't get the griffon until 8th level because of the HD difference between it and the 'normal' paladin mount. It works like the Improved Familiar feat, you still can't get certain creatures until higher levels because of their HD. I was planning to take a Dire Wolf as a special mount but wouldn't be able to get it until 6th level instead of the 5th level war horse. This also slows the special mounts progression accordingly. The Dire Wolf is normally a neutral creature, does this mean I shouldn't be able to call one at 6th level even the DMG says it's possible?
There is alot more of a difference between a horse and a griffin than a couple of HD. The stats, the attacks, FLYING, intellegence, FLYING, etc... A griffin is alot tougher that a horse with equal HD. Take a look at the DMG about special cohorts and paladin special mounts. It explains it pretty good in a complex and obscure way.
Also... the daily upkeep for a griffin is about 10GP, just for food. Meat is alot more expensive than grain. (THis is from the Arms and Equipment Guide.)
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 3:10 PM |
| Actually, we had a flying battle last night at our regular game. The opponent was a Half White Dragon Cloud Giant (Huge flying creature) and we had 3 people with Fly spell on them. Nasty, Nasty Fight against a creature with a 35 AC. We are a 9th and 10th level group. The fighters really just slowed it down and blocked it while the Wizard and Cleric pounded away with magic. (4 neg levels from enervation finally took him down after 2 fireballs, Holy Smite, 2 hits from containers of 10 doses of Alchemist fire and a partridge in a pear tree.) The flying was complex and difficult, but we worked through it.
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 3:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
Also... the daily upkeep for a griffin is about 10GP, just for food. Meat is alot more expensive than grain. (THis is from the Arms and Equipment Guide.)
I may not be fully correct, but I don't think this is necessary for the magical summoned mount of the paladin (unless the DMG specified that it's no longer summoned as a normal mount. Not sure off the top of my head at work.) | |
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BigBC
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 3:53 PM |
| | When I was commenting on this, the part I was unsure of on 'why this should be a problem' is that he stated it was because it was a neutral creature. All animals are naturally neutral creatures and most magical beasts are as well (DDM skirmish alignment aside of course). Why that should matter for a paladin's mount is beyond me. The HD determines when a paladin can get an unusual creature as his special mount, not the creature's alignment. I just don't think it's fair that you should say 'you can't have this as your special mount because it's neutral'. The paladin's special mount is called from the celestial realm and is augmented according to the paladin's level. Also Malin Lug, unlike in 3.0, the 3.5 special mount can be freely dismissed back to this realm at anytime to eat, rest, and such. You don't need to do as much for it as you did in 3.0. | |
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Zenako
Commander
3469 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 4:31 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Malin Lug
Actually, we had a flying battle last night at our regular game. The opponent was a Half White Dragon Cloud Giant (Huge flying creature) and we had 3 people with Fly spell on them. Nasty, Nasty Fight against a creature with a 35 AC. We are a 9th and 10th level group. The fighters really just slowed it down and blocked it while the Wizard and Cleric pounded away with magic. (4 neg levels from enervation finally took him down after 2 fireballs, Holy Smite, 2 hits from containers of 10 doses of Alchemist fire and a partridge in a pear tree.) The flying was complex and difficult, but we worked through it.
Ouch, real nasty there with that AC in play. Even assuming you get all the buffs you realistically could have at that level, those fighters are going to hoping for some high rolls. Been in those shoes a few times myself in our game, BUT, we do have a large group (7 to 10 players) so as long as you can keep the foe occupied, the spellcasters can USUALLY figure out some way to slow it down if possible. Now that is when you do want to be able to Flank and get that +2 to hit, it might double your chances...grin.
Just finished dealing with a bunch of nasty Golem type things this past weekend, AC37 with DR3/20 or something like that. It was difficult for those trying to hit it without all there normal buffs in place and the battle was dicey for a bit. (Bad guy and minions ambushed a subset of the group in town, and they were not in full battle mode, obviously. Some of the characters really depend on the spellcasters for there effectiveness, while others of us have lots of spells or spell like abilities on our own.) Our guys got rescued by a benvolent "rogue" (Death Slaad in disquise) who turns out to work for the other Bad guys who hate the first bad guys more than they hate us humans. This promises to be interesting.... | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 5:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zenako
Ouch, real nasty there with that AC in play. Even assuming you get all the buffs you realistically could have at that level, those fighters are going to hoping for some high rolls. Been in those shoes a few times myself in our game, BUT, we do have a large group (7 to 10 players) so as long as you can keep the foe occupied, the spellcasters can USUALLY figure out some way to slow it down if possible. Now that is when you do want to be able to Flank and get that +2 to hit, it might double your chances...grin.
Just finished dealing with a bunch of nasty Golem type things this past weekend, AC37 with DR3/20 or something like that. It was difficult for those trying to hit it without all there normal buffs in place and the battle was dicey for a bit. (Bad guy and minions ambushed a subset of the group in town, and they were not in full battle mode, obviously. Some of the characters really depend on the spellcasters for there effectiveness, while others of us have lots of spells or spell like abilities on our own.) Our guys got rescued by a benvolent "rogue" (Death Slaad in disquise) who turns out to work for the other Bad guys who hate the first bad guys more than they hate us humans. This promises to be interesting....
Did I mention that the fight started just over 100 feet in the air and that it was the Door Guard for the complex? The two fighters that went up there both had Haversacks and a 10# jug of alchemist fire (found in the last dungeon.) Both fighters rolled Nat 20 to hit it. Those AC's above 30 are such a pain. Our support staff that was attempting to help, crossbows and bows, were rolling for Nat 20's. | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 12/15/2005 12:36 PM |
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I guess my 8th level characters with +16 and 13 to hit should be facing some 30 ACs by now, but apart from Dragons, what monsters have that high an AC. I want them to face a few challenges before my young adult Shen Lung dragon, mwahaha [}:)] | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/15/2005 1:11 PM |
| Give your monsters 1 level of psion or sorcerer and have them cast or manifest mage armor/inertial armor and shield/force screen on themselves. That would give any non-armor wearing monster from the MMs a +8 AC boost. An Umber Hulk psion for instance would get to AC 26 (and be CR 8) while an Elder Xorn Sorcerer would get to AC 33 (and be CR 9). A Belker Psion would have AC 30 and CR 6.
As long as the combo isn't too nonsensical, like a sorcerer Worg or something like that, it shouldn't be too big a stretch. | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 12/15/2005 1:29 PM |
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Good idea, but the Enchanter would have pummeled them with Fireball or Ice Tempest before those two boosts, unless the monsters would have cast these spells beforehand, hehe :) | |
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Zenako
Commander
3469 Posts
| | 12/15/2005 1:30 PM |
| Also keep in mind that our high level group facing the AC37 monster has characters that can hit that AC fairly readily. Between, magic, skills, feats, stats, levels, and so forth I am often at something like +29,+29,+24,+19 to hit right now which rates to hit and hurt the monster some every round. Our archer (if she had been amoung the group that was ambushed) would have had even more success and been able to dish it out without having to risk taking it.
You want to be careful of setting up monsters with ACs so high that even the best fighters have trouble hitting it. I would guess that a level appropriate AC might be around the AC that the fighter would hit slightly over half the time with there best swing. Anything less than that and you are risking TPK and player frustration at being faced with something that outclassed them. | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 12/15/2005 2:52 PM |
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That sounds about perfect Zenako, and if the monster can be flanked, I will add the 2 points to not underscore the monsters faced with this tactic. I cannot wait to throw them in Eberron and face my Warforged army awaiting them. ( P.S: I still need some extra Warforged Fighters...) | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 12/15/2005 3:34 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned
That sounds about perfect Zenako, and if the monster can be flanked, I will add the 2 points to not underscore the monsters faced with this tactic. I cannot wait to throw them in Eberron and face my Warforged army awaiting them. ( P.S: I still need some extra Warforged Fighters...)
Flanking is not always a viable option. Quite often you don't want to close in and surround some opponents. This half dragon cloud giant hit for an average of 40+ damage and had 3 attacks in a round as well as combat reflexes. So figure on taking one hit on the way in and if it made a full attack on someone... 160+ damage to one character in one round = dead character (only the dwarven defender in his defensive stance could take that kind of damage.) Not every situation can be solved by closeing in and taking it on the chin. We had to pound on him with spells and inefective missle fire and draw him out.
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 12/15/2005 3:48 PM |
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That is my plan for the dragon, he will protect the portal to the Outerworld in a cave, so flanking him will be impossible. That gives it 29 AC, over 300 HPs and a BAB of 27, If I remember well... They will probably still be level 8 then, so it should be an epic battle. I might give him fire immunity from the fire Oni that controls him, to stop the
fireballs from pounding him... | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/15/2005 3:50 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sir Bozak The Damned
Good idea, but the Enchanter would have pummeled them with Fireball or Ice Tempest before those two boosts, unless the monsters would have cast these spells beforehand, hehe :)
Mage armor and inertial armor have durations of 1 hour/level. So those can be precast well before a fight. Force screen and shield have durations of 1 min/level, so those have to be cast at the beginning of the fight or right before if the monsters are aware before the encounter. At the worst, you could start your monsters out with the +4 AC boost from the armor spells and then either spend a round in combat to boost it another +4 with the second spells or just without for the combat.
I would echo what Zenako says. If you want a high AC encounter, make it so your melee fighters are hitting around 40-50% of the time. | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 12/15/2005 3:56 PM |
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Thanks, even better, my personnal touch will be placing them too far for melee on the first round and giving them the War Magic feat, so they still can cast it, even if the enchanter wins the initiative...he has a +7...hmm, they will need Improved Initiative as well...hmmm, I think it is about time to bring out my Yuan-Ti Abomination, hehe ;) | |
Please donate BLOOD at http://www.monstersgame.co.uk/ac=vid&vid=11018554
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The number ONE fanatic Of Dread Guards ! I own 66 !!! And the GMR1 !!!
119 completed trades so far...NB called shot: Medusa | |
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