Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
    
Australia
 | | 02/07/2006 8:01 AM |
| Last year, I actually got to play in a campaign for a while. My character was a Radiant Servant of Pelor, generally regarded as one of the most broken classes in 3.5e.
I must say, I didn't find it so. Sure, I was effective, but most of my time was spent healing the barbarian who was the real might of the party...
I've just posted the PC's stats on my site at both 10th level and 13th level, which is where the game ended. (He actually advanced to 14th level, but I haven't updated his stats yet).
http://merricb.multiply.com/journal/item/47
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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Ghendar
Warlord
12441 Posts
The G Spot
| | 02/07/2006 9:40 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
Last year, I actually got to play in a campaign for a while. My character was a Radiant Servant of Pelor, generally regarded as one of the most broken classes in 3.5e.
Interesting. I'm about to start a new campaign playing a 15th level cleric/servant of pelor. 6 levels of cleric, 9 levels of servant.
What's supposed to be broken about it? | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 02/07/2006 9:47 AM |
| | You get a lot of great abilities, what do you give up? Average 1hp/level? That's a pretty good deal. | |
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Elucidus
Skirmisher
30 Posts
| | 02/07/2006 9:57 AM |
| | I am currently playing a radiant servant, he is 10th level I believe. And while his abilities may be grand, you still end up as a big support character. I don't think it is that broken. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 02/07/2006 10:17 AM |
| I've stopped listening to people talk about how broken a class is just from the write-up. Mystic theurge? About as unbroken as you can get. Warlock? Boring maybe, but not broken. Radiant Servant? Well, there you go.
(A couple of people in my group think the warlock PC in my game is broken. Personally, as DM I have no problem with it, except, as I mentioned, that I find it a little boring. I honestly think it has more to do with the other characters being so non-optimized, each of them being multi-classed in three classes.) | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 02/07/2006 12:49 PM |
| | I don't really think there are too many "broken" PrCs in the D&D 3.5e product line. Even the crunchy PrCs like the Frost Mage from Frostburn seem fine to me. I haven't seen the Radiant Servant in play, but I think people see it as a 0 sacrifice option and therefore have labeled it as broken. I was just trying to answer Ghendar's question. | |
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2313 Posts
Toronto
| | 02/07/2006 1:24 PM |
| Can't say Radiant is 'Broken' just a PrC that improves a core class without really giving up anything. But then that could be said for every arcane PrC when mixed with Sorceror.
Sure create 3.5 fix the Ranger so people stick with it for more then one level but leave the Sorc the way it is. [V] I like those who house rule Draconic feats for Sorc just so player might stick with the class. | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 02/07/2006 3:21 PM |
| I still dread the Rangers for their extreme weakness back in 2.0. Had I been a regular
fighter, my Kagonesti with 19 STR and 20 DEX would have been unbeatable. Rangers could not even take Cure Light Wounds as a spell back then, lol
The Ranger still seems weak in regards to other classes, in my opinion...At least until the very high levels. They remain support characters or non-melee archers in my book. I do want to try one soon to see for myself. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/07/2006 4:04 PM |
| | I do think the RSoP is too good; I'm not sure I'd say it is broken. It just is a poor class from a design standpoint, because there's almost no cost to taking it. | |
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Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 02/07/2006 5:55 PM |
| There is an opportunity cost: you must have Healing and Sun to make use of most of its abilities, and any domain spell you take that isn't from the Healing domain greatly reduces your power.
I do think the Greater Turn Undead is too much, but I also think that Turn Undead isn't a good mechanic by RAW.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/07/2006 7:01 PM |
| Consider this though: what do you really lose if you don't take the Healing domain?
Sun is a very strong domain, one of the strongest, but Healing is rightly considered weak. I would contend, though, that even without the Healing domain and the access to that one class power, the RSoP is still better than a straight cleric.
(My fix, personally, would probably be to remove a level of caster progression, maybe 2.) | |
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lurch_E_bean
Underboss
1058 Posts
| | 02/07/2006 7:40 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I do think the RSoP is too good; I'm not sure I'd say it is broken. It just is a poor class from a design standpoint, because there's almost no cost to taking it.
Think about it though, there's really no cost at all to taking ANY cleric type PrC that gives you a full caster level progression. Same goes for Sorcerers (especially if they don't have a familiar, because I think that's the only thing that would take a hit). | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/07/2006 8:14 PM |
| Yes, I think full caster progression for prestige classes is typically a bad idea unless accompanied with significant entry costs.
Loremaster is a good example of one that isn't bad; the extra stuff you get isn't that great, and it requires you to basically burn a feat to no purpose.
Church inquisitor, on the other hand, is an example of one that IS bad. | |
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Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 02/07/2006 8:50 PM |
| The cost of taking RSoP is:
* lose one Base Attack over 20 levels
* have 1d6 instead of 1d8 hit die
* restricted domains
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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smilinIrish
Sergeant
913 Posts
| | 02/07/2006 11:45 PM |
| | If you think the RSoP PrC is a no brainer for a cleric, look at Morninglord of Lathander (closest FR proxy deity). You loose nothing, your turning kicks azz, you gain the ability to spont. cast light based spells, and at 10th you gain darkvision in color. in the high level campaign I was in I had just hit cleric6/MloL10. My DM just quit using undead. With the Glory and Sun domains, plus abilities from the PrC, I had 4 greater turnings per day, +2 to turning checks, +1D6 to turning damage, empower turning, plus other stuff. Yeah, no reason not to take that PrC. I sure hope we pick up that high level campaign again. | |
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Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 02/08/2006 12:05 AM |
| Turn Undead is broken, however.
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 3:15 AM |
| I'm inclined to agree, especially with the Sun domain in play.
7th level cleric outright fried a 10 HD mummy in my game tonight. Kind of took the wind out of the enemy sails right there. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 3:41 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
7th level cleric outright fried a 10 HD mummy in my game tonight.
Well, it is only once per day, and being good at turning requires yet another good attribute (Charisma) for the cleric (who already needs a good Wisdom, Strength, and Constitution). For a 7th-level cleric to turn (destroy, with the Sun domain) a 10-HD mummy, the cleric has to roll a 19+ (with modifiers).
As a DM, I tend to forget about my BBEG clerics bolstering any undead servants. Makes a big difference. If a 10th-level BBEG cleric rolls 16+ to bolster a mummy, the 7th-level cleric can't turn it.
I agree that turning is broken, but mostly the other way: it doesn't keep up with the cleric. Look at how difficult it is to turn high-HD zombies, for instance. And those're just zombies.
The mechanic needs work, definitely. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2712 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 02/08/2006 8:20 AM |
| | Turning is also a class ability that is largely controlled by the DM. No undead, no turning. | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 11:16 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
Turning is also a class ability that is largely controlled by the DM. No undead, no turning.
Hence the addition of divine feats which shift control of your turning abilities into the player's rather than the DM's hands. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 11:56 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
7th level cleric outright fried a 10 HD mummy in my game tonight.
Well, it is only once per day, and being good at turning requires yet another good attribute (Charisma) for the cleric (who already needs a good Wisdom, Strength, and Constitution). For a 7th-level cleric to turn (destroy, with the Sun domain) a 10-HD mummy, the cleric has to roll a 19+ (with modifiers).
As a DM, I tend to forget about my BBEG clerics bolstering any undead servants. Makes a big difference. If a 10th-level BBEG cleric rolls 16+ to bolster a mummy, the 7th-level cleric can't turn it.
I agree that turning is broken, but mostly the other way: it doesn't keep up with the cleric. Look at how difficult it is to turn high-HD zombies, for instance. And those're just zombies.
The mechanic needs work, definitely.
5 ranks in knowledge religion gives a +2 synergy bonus, and there's a material for holy symbols in the Eberron setting (flametouched iron) that adds a +1 competence bonus as well. I think the cleric has a charisma of 12, putting him at +4.
I agree that it doesn't stay useful, mostly because the HD of undead doesn't scale well with CR. In another encouter, turn checks were totally useless against a 20 HD, CR 8 drowned.
The mechanic really should be changed to a damage one, I think. 4th edition, maybe. | |
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nyjastul69
Commander
2712 Posts
Rhode Island
| | 02/08/2006 1:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69
Turning is also a class ability that is largely controlled by the DM. No undead, no turning.
Hence the addition of divine feats which shift control of your turning abilities into the player's rather than the DM's hands.
No doubt, I like the whole theory of those feats. I played a Cleric with a good Cha, Extra Turning, and Divine Meta-magic feats. It can be a powerful combo. However, you do have to use most or all of what few feats you have, and not everyone has access to, or wants to use, splat books. | |
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Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 02/08/2006 5:55 PM |
| Either you have the feats to make Turn Undead something that destroys all undead.
Or you don't, and it's useless. There isn't much of a middle ground with the ability. That's what I mean by broken.
Powerful vampires are more likely to be affected by Turn Undead than high Hit Dice Zombies, despite the Zombies being much less of a threat. The ability just doesn't work properly.
In my campaigns, we use the variant rule from Complete Divine that has Turn Undead doing damage to undead. (1d6 per level, Will save for half). It makes the ability much more relevant in the game.
One of the more amusing NPC clerics I created had two-weapon fighting, a favoured weapon of a quarterstaff, and the Divine Might feat (spend a Turn attempt as a free action to add your Charisma modifier to all damage rolls). That was fun. [:)]
I like Turn Undead and the divine feats being in the game. I think the fact they keep Charisma relevant to clerics is also a good thing. However, the actual mechanics of Turn Undead need to be overhauled. Interestingly, some prestige classes are now appearing that grant the damage version of Turn Undead...
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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Custom Title
WakeXX
Warlord
10152 Posts
Edinboro PA
| | 02/08/2006 5:58 PM |
| | I agree,I like the variant rule better as well. | | | |
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Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 02/08/2006 6:21 PM |
| | The feat, "Exalted Turning" from BoED makes the variant turning even more potent. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/08/2006 7:09 PM |
| Turning (especially with the sun domain) is intended to be powerful against undead. I sincerely doubt the designers of the game implemented the system without considering how effective it would be. This is a far too obvious area of the game to have escaped controlled balance. The designers wanted clerics to be able to have a dramatic effect in a battle against undead. Every class has an area in which to shine ... and battles against undead is one area where clerics are front and center.
However, I do agree that the mechanic is bad. It should have been designed to work against the CR of a creature instead of the HD.
However, I've heard of two interesting alternative systems, although I have tried out neither:
System 1 (this one intrigues me - simple and fast):
When the cleric turns undead, one target undead within 60' must make a Will save or be turned/rebuked. The DC is 10 + Ώ / 2 cleric levels] + Charisma modifier. Alternatively, the cleric may target up to 6 targets with this ability, but the DC of the effect suffers a -4 penalty. In addition, the cleric may choose to destroy/command the undead instead of turning/rebuking the undead by taking another -4 penalty to the DC of the effect. The cleric may choose to take a cumulative -8 penalty to the DC of the effect to attempt to destroy/command up to 6 undead. Turn resistance is treated as a bonus to the saving throw for the creature.
An evil cleric using this system may control a number of undead as if they were cohorts and followers and he possessed the leadership feat.
System 2 (seems a bit off, but has potential):
When a cleric turns/rebukes undead, the cleric first selects a 90 degree cone containing undead. Then he makes a turn check: [[d20 - 16 + charisma modifier + (other bonuses)] / 3] + cleric level. This tells you the CR of creatures that can be turned. Treat a result below 1, but above 0 as cr 1/2. The cleric will turn up to 2d4 undead in this area, starting with the weakest. If the creature being turned/rebuked has a CR < than the result of the turn check by 3, it is instead destroyed/commanded. If the creatures being destroyed/commanded has a CR < the result of the turn check by 6, count every 2 of these creatures as one for purposes of the 2d4 roll that determines the number of creatures to be destroyed/commanded.
Example: Bob the 12th level cleric comes across 2 normal skeletons [CR 1/3], 2 ghouls [CR 1], a bodak [CR 8], a dread wraith [CR 11] and a mummy lord [CR 13]. Bob has a +2 synergy bonus to turn attempts, and a 16 charisma. He rolls a 12 on the d20 for his turn check. That means his result is [⎘ (roll) - 16 (specified deduction) + 3 (charisma) + 2 synergy)] / 3 (specified)] + 12 (level) = 12.3 (which is rounded down to 12). He can turn creatures with a CR of 12 or less. He rolls 2d4 and gets a 3 result (1 and 2). The skeletons and ghouls (even with their +2 turn resistance) each have a CR more than 6 less than the turn result, so they each count for 1/2 creature (meaning that those 4 creatures use up 2 of the 3 creatures that can be turned by Bob with this attempt) and are destroyed. The bodak has a CR > 3 less than the turn attempt, so it is destroyed as well, but counts as a full creature. The dread wraith would have been turned by the effect, but Bob did not roll high enough on his 2d4 roll for the number of creatures to be effected. Finally, the Mummy Lord had a CR too high to be effected by the turn effect. | |
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Phantasmal Thriller
Sneak
89 Posts
| | 02/09/2006 12:14 PM |
| BTW Merric,
I just noticed that on the next article on your site you talk about the Dune boardgame. I just wanted to echo your thoughts on that one: it is a fantastic game! I noticed you were playing with the original edition. Have you seen/played with the newer edition from Eurogames? It is in French (with translation), but it includes all the expansions ever published for Dune. I would definitely recommend tracking it down if you can.
Sorry Off-topic; back to the discussion of the Radiant Servant..... | |
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Diomedes
Commander
3173 Posts
| | 02/10/2006 10:33 AM |
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I ... hate to be the one getting off topic here, but is anyone else amused as heck that Merric's character was nick-named Alf?
It may not have made it down under, but there was an odd sit com in the 80s about a lovable alien who ate cats named "Alf" (short for Alien Life Force).
http://faitmaison.free.fr/amgl/images/alf.gif
-Diomedes | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 02/10/2006 11:09 AM |
| | I remember Alf, he had a very funny voice-over, and made several appearances in commercials, sitcoms, etc. His "father" of sorts was a bald man with glasses who was quite mean and shouted at him all the time. Alf reminded me of Garfield in his attitude. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/10/2006 2:38 PM |
| | Is that the old AH Dune game? I'm interested to hear your thoughts on it. We tried it a couple times and found the play balance to be terrible, but we might have been doing something wrong. It was way too easy for 2 players to get an allied victory. | |
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Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2353 Posts
Australia
| | 02/10/2006 3:26 PM |
| The common house rule in AH Dune is for an alliance to require four strongholds rather than three. At that point, it becomes a very entertaining game.
You can find my report on the board game session (and our latest game of Dune) here: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14967
I'm happy to discuss AH Dune more there.
###
Yes, I saw Alf when it aired... occasionally. Yep, the name is amusing. Mind you, the "Alf" I think of these days is Alfred of St Ruan's. Anyone know the reference?
Cheers! | |
Merric Blackman
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 02/10/2006 3:35 PM |
| | Sadly no, but I can bet it is a God or someone that was sanctified... | |
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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 02/10/2006 6:29 PM |
| | Remember Alf? He's back....in pog form! [/milhouse] | |
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Sir Bozak The Damned
Commander
2854 Posts
Québec
| | 02/10/2006 8:08 PM |
| | LOL...Ah those Simpsons :) | |
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119 completed trades so far...NB called shot: Medusa | |
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