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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
    
 | | 06/11/2006 2:25 PM |
| I've never been satisfied with the way undead turning works in the core rules. It's a wonky ability that doesn't scale well with level (i.e., turning is based on the opponents HD and HD outpaces CR for undead making turn undead a useless ability at high level).
As a result, I'm considering using the variant turning rules found on pg 87 of complete divine. However, I have a few questions and would like some suggestions on how to impliment this in light of other class features:
1.) Shouldn't the save be DC 10 + 1/2 cleric level + Cha modifier? The current rules list it as "DC 10 + cleric level + Cha modifier". That's going to create some insanely high save DCs at high level. For abilities that I've seen, the DC scales at 1/2 class level. Thoughts? I checked the errata, but this isn't dealt with.
2.) I need to figure out how this ability would work for a character with the Sun domain and therefore the greater turning special ability as well as characters with the Glory domain and it's "+2 bonus on turning checks and +1d6 on turning damage roll."
Ideas I've come up with:
Implimenting ONE of the following for Greater Turning:
a.) Greater Turning deals double damage. However, this is potentially a VERY powerful ability in the hands of a Radiant Servant of Pelor that gets multiple uses of this ability per day.
b.) Alternatively, Greater Turning could just deal and extra die or two of damage (say +2d6 damage) per attempt.
c.) Greater Turning grants the Extra Turning Feat. This would work fine, but it doesn't interact well with the "Extra Greater Turning" ability of the Radiant Servant of Pelor.
For the Glory Domain:
a.) +2 to the DC for turning saves. Turning Undead deals an extra 1d6 hp of damage to all undead within the turning radius (1/2 damage for all that make their saves).
How balanced are these ideas? Other suggestions?
Thanks for your help.
LM | |
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 06/12/2006 2:50 AM |
| You're not the only one unhappy with turn undead. I know Sean K. Reynolds has posted on his website the need to revamp it, and I coulda sworn Monte Cook had a variant posted on his page, but I can't find it now.
As far as the UA variant, I'd go with options 1 (consistent with every non-spell based save dc), and b (but I tend to be conservative with introducing potentially powerful mechanics changes). | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 06/12/2006 7:49 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
1.) Shouldn't the save be DC 10 + 1/2 cleric level + Cha modifier? The current rules list it as "DC 10 + cleric level + Cha modifier". That's going to create some insanely high save DCs at high level. For abilities that I've seen, the DC scales at 1/2 class level. Thoughts? I checked the errata, but this isn't dealt with.
As you said, that's what the DC usually is. Assuming it's not a typo, they may have set the DC higher to increase the damage, to make up for not being able to instantly destroy an undamaged undead (as you can do under the current system).
quote:
2.) I need to figure out how this ability would work for a character with the Sun domain and therefore the greater turning special ability as well as characters with the Glory domain and it's "+2 bonus on turning checks and +1d6 on turning damage roll."
Honestly, I just suggest experiementation, being honest with any cleric players that things might change as you work out the balance. Mechanics you might look at include Empowering and Maximizing. (Note, for example, that a Maximized Turn will destroy average undead whose level is equal to or less than the cleric's.) | |
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Snappa
Sneak
77 Posts
| | 06/12/2006 12:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
2.) I need to figure out how this ability would work for a character with the Sun domain and therefore the greater turning special ability as well as characters with the Glory domain and it's "+2 bonus on turning checks and +1d6 on turning damage roll."
Ideas I've come up with:
Implimenting ONE of the following for Greater Turning:
a.) Greater Turning deals double damage. However, this is potentially a VERY powerful ability in the hands of a Radiant Servant of Pelor that gets multiple uses of this ability per day.
b.) Alternatively, Greater Turning could just deal and extra die or two of damage (say +2d6 damage) per attempt.
c.) Greater Turning grants the Extra Turning Feat. This would work fine, but it doesn't interact well with the "Extra Greater Turning" ability of the Radiant Servant of Pelor.
For the Glory Domain:
a.) +2 to the DC for turning saves. Turning Undead deals an extra 1d6 hp of damage to all undead within the turning radius (1/2 damage for all that make their saves).
How balanced are these ideas? Other suggestions?
Thanks for your help.
LM
In my last campaign, we used the variant rule, and the cleric (who went Radiant servant) and I came up with the following:
-We left the save DC as is. Undead get good will saves, and we've rarely run a campaign where players reached a high enough level that this could be a problem (15+)
-Instead of granting additional damage on greater turning, we agreed that a Greater Turning would not allow a saving throw to half the damage.
-He didn't have the Glory domain, but if he had, I would have used something similar to your rule.
These worked out fine, and the character in question almost single-handedly defeated one of the campaign's major villains, a 9th level wizard vampire himself, after she had killed, dropped, or otherwise disabled 4 out of the 6 party members.
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 06/12/2006 2:27 PM |
| Thanks for the advice everyone. I'd love to hear any additional ideas people may have.
Snappa, in your campaign did other feats (Empower Turning, Heighten Turning, etc.) ever come into play? | |
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Snappa
Sneak
77 Posts
| | 06/12/2006 7:47 PM |
| Just extra turning, which pretty much turned the cleric/radiant servant into a turning machine.
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 6:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
Thanks for the advice everyone. I'd love to hear any additional ideas people may have.
Snappa, in your campaign did other feats (Empower Turning, Heighten Turning, etc.) ever come into play?
I'd make them similar to how a spontaneous caster uses metamagic feats.
Make Turning/Rebuking a full-round action if one uses Empower Turning, Heighten Turning and so on.
Heighten Turning - Decrease damage 2dX per 1 save DC increase.
Empower Turning - Add 1.5x the damage dice.
Maximize Turning - Maximize damage from base dX.
I also agree that Improved Turning and the Glory domain should increase the save DCs and that Greater Turning shouldn't allow for any save at all. | |
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 6:06 PM |
| Oh, and you aren't alone in your feelings on turning. It is one of the most worthless abilities at high-level play.
That's why so many people end up getting Divine Metamagic and Divine Spell Power. If you can't turn the undead that is supposed to be equal to your power, then you might as well use all those wasted attempts casting Maximized Flame Strike over and over and over again. | |
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