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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10423 Posts
    
United States
 | | Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7535 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 06/18/2006 11:44 PM |
| My only problem with the Mystic theurge, is not that it's broken, but it allows a 4 person party to ignore the cleric slot, and put in a second fighter. Then, he just burns through heals when it's "off-camera" so to speak. It gives them a bit more offensive power. but it's still pretty balanced compared to some things, so I still like it. It's what I'd be, if I were a D&D character.
Versatility=Good | |
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zenthrus
Warlord
5081 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 06/18/2006 11:58 PM |
| I really like the comment about more 'design asides' in future D&D products (providing that the usable content of the product isn't reduced to compensate).
I've played and DMed Mystic Theurges. They aren't nearly as broken as they appear on the first read-through. I've actually found that even in a 4-player party, the you're probably better off running a straight Cleric and have your Rogue max out Use Magic Device for arcane power via scrolls and wands. At low levels the party will suffer a bit, but can really be a boon at mid-high level. | |
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Snappa
Sneak
77 Posts
| | 06/19/2006 12:00 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060616a
Excellent piece IMHO.
Excellent defense of the Mystic Theurge too.
Dave
Agree on both accounts. The Mystic Theurge is a great example of the tradeoff between specialization and generalization with a character. The theurge is uniquely positioned to fill two roles in a party, and, as alluded to in the article, works wonderfully in a three-person party, or one in which none of the other players want to play a caster, either arcane, or divine.
Having NPCd (as DM), and then played a MT in my group's campaign before this one, I can say with certainty, that until character level 8 (assuming 3 levels in each base class), the theurge falls far behind single-class or more focused character builds in terms of raw power. A caster level of 4, with second level spells just isn't going to do much against your average EL 7 encounter. The lack of improvement in cleric turning ability is also huge, especially in a campaign featuring powerful undead opponents (ours did).
A poster in a thread about the MT somewhere else (I think it was ENWorld) made a good point about the class. It will rarely run out of spells because long before it does, other casters in the party will be tapped out and require rest. This can be a positive, however, as the theurge has enough slots to prepare a wide variety of utility spells, having the "right tool on hand" for the job.
Overall, I think the Mystic Theurge is certainly not underpowered considering the role it plays in a party, but I wouldn't call it broken either.
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10423 Posts
United States
| | 06/20/2006 9:28 AM |
| Yep, there are a lot of excellent 1st through 3rd level spells both for Clerics and Wizards, especially if you throw in things like the latest compendium. Things like mass snake's swiftness, if you've got a decent-sized party, or have some cohorts, can do a lot more damage to a pile of enemies than even a fireball (suppose the fighters have great cleave, for instance).
There are ways to play the Theurge, I think, that could really be fun. I haven't tried one yet though, but then I don't get to play nearly as often as I'd like.
[:(]
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 06/20/2006 10:21 AM |
| | It's also worth noting that Arcane Hierophant is a good candidate for the Practiced Spellcaster feat. You'd have to take it twice for full effect, but it would mean that your caster level would stay the same as your total number of character levels. You'd get lower-level spells, but you wouldn't lose any benefit from them due to low caster level. | |
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mordulin
Skirmisher
37 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 10:49 AM |
| That is a great article and I agree with him that some things read bad and play good and others read good yet play bad. Personally one of the ideas I had for playing a Mystic Theurge was a buffer/debuffer. You play him as a Cleric/Necromancer and you prepare buffing spells (i.e. aid, bless, bull's strength, etc..) for your cleric slots and prepare debuffing spells with your Necromancer levels (i.e. dispel magic, ray of enfeeblement, etc...) However, after discussing it with my DM we both agreed that while the character would work great in concept the truth is it requires so much book keeping on both his part and the group's part that we'd forget half the bonuses and penalties in play.
By the by, I love the Arcane Heirophant especially when you mix in levels of Mystic Theurge so you can at 20th level cast 9th level arcane and divine spells. Practiced spellcaster is practically a must with any split spellcaster but its nice to think about casting as a 20th level arcane and divine caster at 20th level. Quicken spell is another feat that all dual spellcasters should take, might not have the awesome high-level spells but being able to cast 2 spells a round and not run out of spells before the others need to rest is a great boon. | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 12:03 PM |
| I hate it when people immediately make a gut reaction about things being overpowered. "The warlock can use his eldritch blast all day! Broken!" The worst part is that these are usually the sort of DM's that think if you try to explain something isn't really overpowered will believe you are a powergaming munchkin and you just want to snooker him into doing something foolish.
There's currently a thread over on Wizards.com about a DM that things shocking grasp is broken. I don't know what I would do if I were faced with an irrational DM like this.
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It's deja vu all over again. | |
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Snappa
Sneak
77 Posts
| | 06/28/2006 5:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gristlemane
There's currently a thread over on Wizards.com about a DM that things shocking grasp is broken. I don't know what I would do if I were faced with an irrational DM like this.
Not much you can do except find a rational DM. I've banned a few classes/races from my games over the years, but only after carefully considering a player's arguments. I've also allowed things once, but banned them from later games (monk with vow of poverty) because I felt it threw the power balance of a group off too much.
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FeranEldritchKnight
Sergeant
385 Posts
Kansas City, MO USA
| | 06/29/2006 1:51 PM |
| I have to agree, excellent explaination of both the read/play issue and a good defense of the MT. It really is hard as a DM to decide what works well for your game and what doesn't without playtest. I know the MT I DM for isn't much help to the group- but that group's size is out of control (9 PCs!) so the character gets lost in the crowd.
Also, without playtesting, I wouldn't know that the monk/VOP combo is a bit overpowered. From now on, I think I'm banning the combo. My main problem is I found out how powerful it was by playing it, then I DMed someone who wanted to copy the character. All I can say is at least our two personalities play out differently. [:(!][:(][V] | |
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delguidance
Sergeant
394 Posts
| | 07/02/2006 11:23 PM |
| | Excellent recomendation. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and it makes me want to get out the dice and role up a character. | |
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