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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
    
Wadsworth, OH
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Grim
Sergeant
482 Posts
| | 06/19/2006 11:36 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nycfarmkid
I'm looking at a scout for a new campaign we are going to start up soon.
anyone have any experience with the scout class before? I'd kind of like to play a melee scout, but I'm not sure the best way to go about it. they seem to be so much better at range in general. Any thoughts?
They are ok, but it gets silly when they move just for the sake of moving to get their skirmish bonus. One of my players would move his scout from one square and end up at the end of his move in the same square he had left from, just for the bonus. Pretty silly to force the movement as part of the class abilities. They should have treated the skirmish ability similar to sneak attack for flanking and such to avoid that. Scout out a great place to fight and then hurt the enemy when you are there, not run around like a chicken with your head cut off for bonus damage. | |
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kestrel.ca
Underboss
1683 Posts
| | 06/20/2006 12:07 AM |
| | Played a scout for a short session (1 combat). It ended in a TPK when the party tried to take on an armed encampment way above their party level. They still managed surprisingly well and the scout was pretty survivable -- he was excellent at spellcaster/commander assassination while the party tank held up the front lines. It's definitely a class I'd like to try again sometime (right after a bunch of other cool classes). | |
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 06/20/2006 12:34 AM |
| One of the players in my current campaign is playing a scout. Its a good class, and melee suits it just fine. You simply need to build you character for it. Just be creative with your movements for skirmish damage.
Invest heavily in tumble and synergetic skills for avoiding AoOs to move. At early levels, low attack bonus can be an issue, so unless you have a good strength score, use a light weapon and get weapon finesse at 3rd level.
Don't expect to be able to fill the role of a fighter, but you should be able to make a pretty good mobile/support combatant. | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 06/20/2006 12:44 AM |
| Scouts are my new favorite class. I like them as archers and find them to be superior in many ways to the ranger (and more interesting as well). Getting trapfinding + 8 skill points per level with a great skill list (including Disable Device, see the errata), interesting combat abilities, fast movement, blindsense, freedom of movement, etc. is nothing short of awesome IMHO.
My preferred build is an elven archer scout weilding a composite bow. Combine the Greater Manyshot (Expanded Psionics Handbook) feat with maxed out skirmish and be prepaired to dish out amazing amounts of damage each round to creatures that are harmed by critical hits. Go scout for levels 1-20, they're completely worth it.
If a melee scout is what you're looking for, I suggest combining scout and the Dervish PrC from Complete Warrior. The abilities of these two classes synergize very nicely.
In any case, I think you'll find this to be a great resource:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=8439218 | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 06/20/2006 2:54 AM |
| I've played with a Dervish/Scout (with a two handed weapon build). This was in the Living Greyhawk campaign where there was a rebuild in the middle of it so I didn't get to see him work at lower levels. However, in action he was absolutely brutal when he hit, especially when he pulled for power attack. He often had to make creatures make massiv damage roles, especially because he was using a falcion which has a large crit range.
As mentioned, at early levels you are a mobile fighter. I don't think you need to take weapon finese, but Combat Expertise is a very useful feat.
You may also want to think about multiclassing with rogue since you may be able to make situations that take advantage of both skirmish and sneak attack damage. | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 06/20/2006 10:01 AM |
| Here's a suggested feat progression for an archery based scout:
1st Point Blank Shot
3rd Precise Shot
4th* Expeditious Dodge (Races of the Wild, pg 150)- if the DM will allow it as a bonus feat otherwise take Dodge
6th Rapid Shot
8th* Mobility
9th Manyshot
12th Greater Manyshot (XPH, pg 47) (allows multiple attacks with skirmish ability)
12th* Shot on the Run
15th Dark Stalker (LoM, pg. 179) (Allows you to hide from Blindsense, Blindsight, Scent and Tremorsense abilities (as well as All Around Sight special ability). Great in conjunction with Hide in Plain Sight.)
16th* Improved Initiative
18th Improved Precise Shot (could swap this with Dark Stalker if you need it earlier)
20th* Quick Reconnoiter (CAdv)
*: indicates a scout bonus feat | |
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 06/20/2006 10:04 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Grim
They are ok, but it gets silly when they move just for the sake of moving to get their skirmish bonus. One of my players would move his scout from one square and end up at the end of his move in the same square he had left from, just for the bonus. Pretty silly to force the movement as part of the class abilities. They should have treated the skirmish ability similar to sneak attack for flanking and such to avoid that. Scout out a great place to fight and then hurt the enemy when you are there, not run around like a chicken with your head cut off for bonus damage.
This was errata'd. You must end up 10' away from your original space to get the bonus. | |
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 06/20/2006 10:13 AM |
| I played a Scout/Order of the Bow Initiate.
I did more damage with one arrow than I did if I hit with all arrows while using Rapid Shot.
The main problem, you're only going to get one attack while using Skirmish. So you have to optimize that one attack. Get as much damage out of it as possible, and get the highest hit bonus you can.
This problem is greatly alleviated if you're playing an Eberron campaing. Mainly due to the Action Surge feat. | |
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Malin Lug
Sergeant
742 Posts
| | 06/20/2006 1:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lachlarlan_the_Mad
I played a Scout/Order of the Bow Initiate.
I did more damage with one arrow than I did if I hit with all arrows while using Rapid Shot.
The main problem, you're only going to get one attack while using Skirmish. So you have to optimize that one attack. Get as much damage out of it as possible, and get the highest hit bonus you can.
This problem is greatly alleviated if you're playing an Eberron campaing. Mainly due to the Action Surge feat.
One of the big advantages of this type of build over the archer that just plants arrow after arrow into the opponent, is that you don't run out of arrows so quickly. In our current game, our archer goes through arrows like they are going out of style. We carry arround over 300 arrows (bags of holding and so forth) but are on a long adventure with no chance of resupply and no time to sit down and make arrows. He has gone through nearly 100 arrows and we have just hit our first non random encounter.
In today's Army, something like 10,000 bullets are fired for every person killed. More missles flying isn't necessarily the best thing to do.
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 06/20/2006 4:53 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lachlarlan_the_Mad
I played a Scout/Order of the Bow Initiate.
I did more damage with one arrow than I did if I hit with all arrows while using Rapid Shot.
The main problem, you're only going to get one attack while using Skirmish. So you have to optimize that one attack. Get as much damage out of it as possible, and get the highest hit bonus you can.
This problem is greatly alleviated if you're playing an Eberron campaing. Mainly due to the Action Surge feat.
Greater Manyshot (XPH) is another route to firing multiple arrows per round, each with skirmish damage.
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 06/20/2006 5:46 PM |
| | Feathers is playing a ranger/scout in my Shackled City game and so far his damage output is pretty good. | |
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Grim
Sergeant
482 Posts
| | 06/20/2006 9:22 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lachlarlan_the_Mad
quote:
Originally posted by Grim
They are ok, but it gets silly when they move just for the sake of moving to get their skirmish bonus. One of my players would move his scout from one square and end up at the end of his move in the same square he had left from, just for the bonus. Pretty silly to force the movement as part of the class abilities. They should have treated the skirmish ability similar to sneak attack for flanking and such to avoid that. Scout out a great place to fight and then hurt the enemy when you are there, not run around like a chicken with your head cut off for bonus damage.
Good to know this got errata'd. The other way was just silly.
This was errata'd. You must end up 10' away from your original space to get the bonus.
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I am a leaf on the wind...Urrk!!--Wash, "Serenity" | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
| | 06/21/2006 8:09 AM |
| Thanks for all the pointers. I'd read through the Scout Handbook on the Wizards forums before posting here. Just wanted some second opinions. I'm aware that archery seems to be my best bet for an optimized scout, however I'm feeling a little more like playing a melee character. If you had to make a melee character out of a pure scout 20 build, how would you do it?
TWF would be great if you could ever get more than one Skirmish attack after moving. Dual Strike would be a great feat IF it let you add skirmish damage to each attack. Still might be nice for flavor. A two handed weapon might just be better. Maybe a spear of some kind. Any more thoughts? | |
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BigBC
Sergeant
620 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 8:19 AM |
| | Had a friend play a scout that was going the Exotic Weapon Master route. He had a +1 Spiked Chain that allowed him to move the ten feet and still be out of reach but do alot of damage anyway. He was a half-orc so he had the Strength thing going for him as well. If you want to play a melee scout, a weapon with reach can be your best friend. [:)] | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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JoLT
Sneak
87 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 10:51 AM |
| | For a scout that melees the mobility feat is a grwat way to go. This also leads to Spring attack also a good feat to get you out of harms way. Then anything that helps you to deal damage in just one attack, powerful charges, the new spring attack feat in Player handbook 2 etc. | |
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 11:15 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nycfarmkid
TWF would be great if you could ever get more than one Skirmish attack after moving. Dual Strike would be a great feat IF it let you add skirmish damage to each attack. Still might be nice for flavor. A two handed weapon might just be better. Maybe a spear of some kind. Any more thoughts?
Why doesn't Dual Strike allow skirmish on both strikes?
Depending on what books your DM is allowing, I would do a 20th level, elven melee build.
1st: Expeditous Dodge - Races of the Wild (Moving 40' and gaining +2 AC is a good thing for the scout.)
3rd: Exotic Weapon Prof. (Elven Courtblade) - Races of the Wild (You're going to be spending a feat on a weapon proficiency at some point. You might as well get 1d10 damage, and 18-20 x2 threat)
4th: *Mobility (+4 AC against AoO's)
6th: Spring Attack
8th: *Track
9th: Elusive Target - Complete Warrior (Anything to reduce damage against you.)
12th: Improved Crit. (Elven Courtblade), *Quick Reconnoiter - Complete Adventurer (Scouts are, after all, scouts.)
15th: Weapon Focus (Elven Courtblade)
16th: *Alertness
18th: Tactile Trapsmith - Complete Adventurer
20th: *Blind Fight
*Denotes bonus Feat due to Scout levels.
Get a Mithril Breastplate or equivalent armor ASAP. | |
Champion of the Mimic; Knight of the Caryatid Column
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 11:21 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nycfarmkid
The spiked chain had occurred to me, it offers a lot of flexibility. Plus you can weapon finesse it and use Dex for any trip attacks you might make.
Actually, unless this has been errata'd, the Attacker always uses Strength for trip attempts.
Weapon Finesse wouldn't do you any good in that regard. | |
Champion of the Mimic; Knight of the Caryatid Column
Called Shots: Unhallowed - Tomb Mote
Vindicated Called Shots: Blood Wars - Solar
Aberrations 60/60, Deathknell 60/60, Angelfire 60/60, Underdark 60/60, Wardrums 60/60, WotDQ 60/60 | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 11:24 AM |
| Since you will have evasion there are also some great suggestions from PHB2.
Combat Acrobat (need at least level 6)
Cunning Evasion (Evade and hide at same time)
Keen Eared Scout (New things with listen)
Telling Blow (Every crit does your skirmish damage, even if you don't meet conditions)
In fact the last one with a Scimitar, Falchion, etc would be almost necessary for a melee scout. | |
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 11:28 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
Since you will have evasion there are also some great suggestions from PHB2.
Combat Acrobat (need at least level 6)
Cunning Evasion (Evade and hide at same time)
Keen Eared Scout (New things with listen)
Telling Blow (Every crit does your skirmish damage, even if you don't meet conditions)
In fact the last one with a Scimitar, Falchion, etc would be almost necessary for a melee scout.
Don't forget the Elven Courtblade. It does more damage than either of those and can be Finessed to boot. | |
Champion of the Mimic; Knight of the Caryatid Column
Called Shots: Unhallowed - Tomb Mote
Vindicated Called Shots: Blood Wars - Solar
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
| | 06/21/2006 11:51 AM |
| Here is an excerpt from dual strike...
quote:
Special: When you make this attack, you apply precision-based damage (such as from sneak attack) only once. If you score a critical hit, only the weapon in your primary hand deals extra critical hit damage; your off-hand weapon deals regular damage.
A fighter may select Dual Strike as one of his fighter bonus feats.
I've already decided one an elven build and I'll probably end up taking Improved Weapon Familiarity to let me use all of those Elven exotic Weapons.
Telling Blow looks awesome. I'll have to get that for sure, and as early as possible. Combine this with dual strike and it might actually be worth it to take the needed feats for dual strike. I'm liking this. EDIT: Scratch this, looking at my above quote id only get the extra damage off my main hand on a crit anyway. Still I want to get telling blow asap. | |
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Lachlarlan_the_Mad
Sergeant
470 Posts
| | 06/21/2006 11:58 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nycfarmkid
I've already decided one an elven build and I'll probably end up taking Improved Weapon Familiarity to let me use all of those Elven exotic Weapons.
Improved Weapon Familiarity won't help you. I've already looked at it.
All it does is make those exotic elven weapons martial. And since you don't have martial weapon proficiency...
If you do take it, make sure you take at least one level of Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger or Paladin. | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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