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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
    
 | | 01/28/2006 8:51 PM |
| We had another successful tournament, with a lot of fun had by all. We lost the Canadian contingent, but had organic growth to hit 18 people. 4 Rhode Islanders (who showed last time) could not make it as planned, and 3 Mainers who had indicated they would come did not. So if we can get everyone on the same page, we'll hit mid 20's easily.
The good news was the high quality of the tournament: All five New Englanders who qualified for the 2005 National Championships were on hand, and we still couldn't hold back the new talent of Scott McLean and Tom Livak [:)].
As always, TJ Collectibles ran a crisp tournament, with the five Swiss rounds finishing in about 5.5 hours. The prizes were upgraded from last time as well: The top 2 got 2 Underdark and 1 Archfiends booster, the rest got Underdark boosters, except for the last two who got Deathknell. The last place person drew a Beholder for his pains [:D]. Even better, the top 4 also got to pick from a selection of 4 minis repainted by the talented Runelord: Justicator, Half-Fiend Ogre, Dark Naga, Half-Ogre Barbarian.
As I did last time, I will write several posts detailing the standings, bands used and maps used, and some overall comments. I will omit the verbose report since I didn't win [:I].
Standings:
<br>Rank Name Points Opp Win %<br>1 Scott Mclean 15 68.0000<br>2 Tom Livak 12 58.6667<br>3 Patrick Lynch 12 56.0000<br>4 Adam Zaremba 12 49.3333<br>5 Joe Creighton 9 57.3333<br>6 Nick Brown 9 56.0000<br>7 Declan Lynch 9 54.6667<br>8 Mike Brezsnyak 9 54.6667<br>9 Bruce McLean 6 58.6667<br>10 Pat Ellis 6 54.6667<br>11 James McLean 6 54.6667<br>12 Mark Saleeba 6 52.0000<br>13 James Boyle 6 45.3333<br>14 Matt Bachtold 6 41.3333<br>15 Steve Foeri 3 42.6667<br>Drop James Vaughn<br>Drop Al Spader<br>Drop Jesse Robider<br>
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Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 01/28/2006 9:09 PM |
| Bands Appearing (in order of finish)
#1 (Scott McLean 5-0) LG
Coatl 42
Cleric of Order 24
Marut 74
Rika, Angelic Avenger 31
Dwarf Wizard 21
Jozan, Cleric of Pelor 4
Hill Dwarf Warrior 4
7 activations, 200 points
Map: Drow Outpost
#2 (Tom Livak 4-1) LG
Coatl x2 84
Marut 74
Eberk 16
Aramil, Adventurer 13
Dalelands Militia 7
Man-at-Arms x2 6
8 activations 200 points
Map: Mithral Mines
#3 (Pat Lynch 4-1) LE
Snig the Axe 20
Helmed Horror x4 180
Goblin Skirmisher x3 (minions)
8 activations, 200 points
Map: Drow Outpost
#4 (Adam Zaremba 4-1) LE
Snig the Axe 20
Chraal x5 175
Duergar Warrior 4
Goblin Skirmisher x (minions)
10 activations, 199 points
Map: Drow Enclave
#5 (Joe Creighton 3-2) CE
Tiefling Captain 21
Red Samurai x4 160
Cursed Spirit 11
Abyssal Maw 5
Orc Warrior 3
8 activations, 200 points
Map: Mushroom Cavern
#6 (Nick Brown 3-2) CE
Eye of Gruumsh 44
Tiefling Captain 21
Orc Champion 39
Ogre Ravager x2 78
Cursed Spirit 11
Abyssal Maw 5
Gnoll 3
8 activations, 199 points
Map: Fane of Lolth
#7 (Declan Lynch 3-2) CE
Eye of Gruumsh 44
Tiefling Captain 21
Red Samurai x2 80
Ogre Ravager 38
Cursed Spirit 11
Orc Warrior x2 6
8 activations, 200 points
Map: Fane of Lolth
#8 (Mike Brezsnyak 3-2) CE
Ryld Argith 55
Red Samurai x3 120
Choker 14
Abyssal Maw 5
Orc Warrior x2 6
9 activations, 200 points
Map: Mushroom Cavern
#9 (Bruce McLean 2-3) CG
Greenfang Druid 50
Dire Bear 44
Evermeet Wizard 39
Celestial Pegasus 32
Winter Wolf 24
Celestial Dire Badger 9
(summoned 6 figures worth 30 points)
6 activations, 198 points
Map: Fane of Lolth
#10 (Pat Ellis 2-3) CG
Inspiring Marshal 29
Frenzied Berserker x3 156
Devis, Half-Elf Bard 6
Xeph Warrior x3 9
8 activations, 200 points
Map: Drow Outpost
#11 (James McLean 2-3) LG
Half-Orc Paladin 48
Dragon Samurai 60
Justice Archon 32
Dwarf Artificer 21
Eberk, Adventurer 16
Healer 12
Celestial Dire Badger 9
7 activations, 198 points
Map: Fane of Lolth
#12 (Mark Saleeba 2-3) LE
Rakshasa 41
Gauth 39
Chraal 35
Duegar Champion x2 66
Gravehound 11
Duergar Warrior x2 8
8 activations, 200 points
Map: Tomb of Queen Peregrine
#13 (James Boyle 2-3) CG
Inspiring Marshal 29
Frenzied Berserker x2 104
Wizard Tactician 27
Half Ogre Barbarian 25
Devis, Half-Elf Bard 6
Mialee, Elf Wizard 6
Xeph Warrior 3
8 activations, 200 points
Map: Mithral Mines
#14 (Matt Bachtold 2-3) CG
Greenfang Druid 50
Dire Bear 44
Celestial Pegasus 32
Rikka, Angelic Avenger 31
Winter Wolf 24
Celstial Dire Badger 9
Devis, Half-Elf Bard 6
Xeph Warrior 3
8 activations, 199 points
Map: Mithral Mines
#15 (Steve Foeri 1-4) LE
Human Blackguard 46
Chraal x4 140
Kobold Miner x3 9
8 activations, 195 points
Map: Drow Enclave
Drop (James Vaughn) LE
Dark Naga 41
Beholder 83
Half-Elf Hexblade 33
Destrachan 26
Imp 17
6 activations, 200 points
Map: Fane of Lolth
Drop (Al Spader) LE
Dark Naga 41
Mind Flayer Telepath 38
Helmed Horror 45
Chraal x 2 70
Kobold Miner x2 6
7 activations, 200 points
Map: Drow Outpost
Drop (Jesse Robider) LG
Battle Plate Marshal 43
Dwarven Defender 55
Dwarf Samurai 32
Gold Dwarf Soldier x2 34
Dwarf Artificer 21
Healer 12
Man-at-Arms 3
8 activations, 200 points
Map: Unknown
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Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 01/28/2006 9:48 PM |
| Faction Analysis:
LG - 4
CG - 4
LE - 6
CE - 4 | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 01/28/2006 9:51 PM |
| Map Analysis:
Fane of Lolth - 5
Drow Outpost - 4
Mithral Mines - 3
Mushroom Cavern - 2
Drow Enclave - 2
Tomb of Queen Peregrine - 1 | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 01/28/2006 10:26 PM |
| Metagame Comments:
UP: Maruts shined brightly today (taking the first two spots), and certainly burnished their tier 1 credentials
UP: Snig + 5 Chraals. I'll have to see it do well one more time to be fully sold, but Adam at least showed this band to be viable. His last match (a win) was against a solid player who had already gone 3-1 runnning 4 red Samurai. Due to careful play, Snig was never even attacked.
UP: Quad Helmed Horror. Of course, it will do fine when OOC does not penalize speed, but I wanted to prove it can be tier 1 under current rules. I will boldly state that it is. Snig was never touched, because I had practiced my first move script against many bands, and knew how to keep him safe.
My only loss was to an admittedly tough matchup (Scott McLean's Marut,Coatl, Rikka, CoO, Dwarf Wiz band). Scott played flawlessly, as far as I could tell, and he still need to morale save Rikka out of Command (got a 15), morale save the Coatl with no CoO, and needed to win the last three inits (at CR 0 to my 0) to kill two more HH before they got swings on Rikka and Coatl. Those two ended the match at 15 and 20 hp, respectively. Hey, tier 1 bands are allowed to lose to occasionally lose other tier 1 bands who are played well and make the key rolls, right? Anyway, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it: Quad HH is tier 1 right now [:)].
UP: Red Samurai: Three of the top 8 (numbers 5,7,8) bands heavily featured these pieces
UP: Ogre Ravagers aren't dead yet when so many Samurai infest the meatgame. Also, OR fare surprisingly well against Helmed Horrors due to their Fire Resistance. If you can roll a couple of 10's (with flanking), you've just put 70 damage on an HH, who will take 4 full rounds at least to knock out a stalwart OR.
DOWN: Gith Monks: None showed up, and probably for the better for them. The consensus of most of the players I talked to was that the Monks would have had a very tough time in this field. The 4 Monk, no Coatl version would have been in really tough shape with all the energy damage around. The 3 Monk, Coatl version would have done better, but would have struggled against all the constructs and Elementals. Now this band has done so well elsewhere that I am not thinking to dispute it's Tier 1 status, but I don't think it can claim to be better than the rest of the group of top bands. I know (from a lot of testing) the Quad HH wins almost all the time against Monks if the match is on Drow Outpost, and about 50% on more open maps.
Down: Frenzied Berserkers: They miss just a little too much against the overall higher ACs we are seeing now. The GMA is less powerful on the smaller maps. They are still a wild card band that could win any one match, and might pull out a tournament here and there, but I am now of the mind that they are not quite tier 1 for the present.
Unknown: No Triple Death Slaad bands showed up. I am curious as to how they would have done. I still would like to see them in action against more Chaotic bands before I can decide where they stand.
That's it for the big update posts. Discuss, if you would be so kind.
Pat Lynch
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Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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The_Duke
Sneak
158 Posts
| | 01/28/2006 11:01 PM |
| Ha! Good job Pat, Adam et al! I thought I was going down to my local friendly game shop last Wednesday to play a few casual rounds, only to find you guys getting ready for this tournament. I spent a not a few moments on Vassal replaying our match--good to see you placed high in NE.
One thing--did Snig actually keep the HHs under command, or did you use rush for the most part? | |
Alfred O. Cloutier -Trading History - BLAULB!
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 01/28/2006 11:08 PM |
| You know.. I dont know if I would have believed Snig + 5 Chraals would be a top place finish... why couldnt I (running a Wizard Tact) have faced him..
I could go back and find where I tried to defend Marut as a piece to watch.. but i will just remember it and not worry about it too much. Its one of those things that I cant grasp.. it only has 75 hit points.. why doesnt it just fall over dead when faced with.. er.. Frenzies for example.
Thanks as always for TJs for hosting and everyone for making it possible. Runelords minis really looked so much better in person (check out his website to see more of his work).
er.. theres more. but Im tired. will talk later. | |
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Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 01/28/2006 11:12 PM |
| Awesome. Go LG!
Out of curiosity, which Marut / Single-Minded ruling were you guys using? I only updated my clarifications page around 9am PST; was that too late for you guys to see the change? | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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Toxic_Rat
Sergeant
745 Posts
Lehi, Utah, USA
| | 01/28/2006 11:18 PM |
| | Surprising on the Frenzied B's...I would have expected a better showing. Were their games close, or did they get blown out? | |
Any time you try to make something idiot-proof, someone always goes out and invents a better idiot.
Champion of Siege Equipment | |
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AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 01/28/2006 11:50 PM |
| | Penta-Chraal is interesting thats for sure, hats off to Adam for running it and doing so well. I just keep thinking of what if someone ran the IM/FBx2/Wizard Tactx2 I saw not long ago. But I guess if Snig just never shows his face you can go run with it. When speed 2 goes away that might even become more viable. Just leave snig on the start area and hide. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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azuretide
Sergeant
407 Posts
| | 01/28/2006 11:58 PM |
| | it'd be interesting to see poor snig go boom to a cone and all 5 chraals explode in unison | |
Completed trades: bonelock, noilo x2, greylord78, Altayr, Shadow Lord x3, qillan_dvra, symbiotesx2, devasque, smetzger, dulsin, Sir Bozak The Damned, Ironfist Boulderbender x3, tallcar24, Tactician x2, Okay McKay, skwave, dariustad,Eprosen,hung4treason,dog of the underworld,FeranEldritchKnight,Jerry_Damage01,vtloon | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 01/29/2006 12:08 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by azuretide
it'd be interesting to see poor snig go boom to a cone and all 5 chraals explode in unison
Adam faced a four Samurai band, and didn't fall to those cones. He practiced twice against DOuble LRD,a dn won once. The key is positioning the Chralls just right to keep the dragons far away. But LRDs are certainly not a great matchup for him. Triple Death Sladd is not good for him either, especially if one can get a Cursed Spirit near Snig, and then get a Slaad to only see that CS as a Hammer target. But the Slaads were too chicken today [:)].
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3530 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 01/29/2006 1:16 AM |
| | I'm floored by the success of the Marut, too. I figured it was getting a mention mostly because it was meant as an anti-Gith monk piece. What makes this guy so successful? The Mounted Paladin has the same AC and a tad more hp (also fearless), but folks complained that he was way too squishy. Now, along comes this construct which is also extremely expensive and he's kicking butt? Are construct immunities really worth that much? | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 01/29/2006 1:29 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Toxic_Rat
Surprising on the Frenzied B's...I would have expected a better showing. Were their games close, or did they get blown out?
I ran the triple Frenzies.
My first match was against Adam, and I could REALLY feel the rust. I hadn't played a DDM match since GenCon! Took me a while to get the swing of things. I thought he was going to smoke me 1/2 way through, but then his Chrall's began to fail Morale's... In that first match it all came down to the final die roll. Adam had a Chrall within 2 squares of the exit, and he was routing. I was able to move a FB up to base him, but couldn't attack and finish him off. I kept my fingers crossed for the morale check with the -2, but he rolled some solid number, and that won him the match.
My next game was against the 4 Red Sam band, and similarly, it came down to a final initiative roll. If I win the roll, I kill his last Sam, and win. If he wins Init, he kills my last FB. He won init.
That said, it's not the dice fault. Against the Chrall's, I hit with my first 5 or 6 FB attacks. I'll take that any day!
So, my 2-3 record could easily have been 4-1, though had I won that first game, my opponents would have looked pretty different...
I'll try to write up more in the morning.
Great to see everyone, and put some more faces to names (Ack, Mr and mrs Runelord, Zenako...).
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 01/29/2006 8:12 AM |
| I was talking with Fenris and came upon an epiphany.. I kept saying "a few key rolls here or there".. the band shouldnt win or lose on a few key rolls. and it shouldnt be a common mantra. Either the band didnt work or I just dont play that well. The game can be won or lost on a die roll or 4.. but not every match... that might be me beating myself up about this tho.
I have the last band - I happened to play him
Snow White and the 7 Dwarves
Battle plate marshall
Dwarven Defender
Dwarf Samurai
2x Gold Dwarf Soldier
Dwarf Artificer
Man @ Arms (he's hunched over and there isnt a 3 point dwarf yet)
Healer (Snow White)
As a post script - the only thing that kept me from winning this match was the fact that I have a tradition to up hold in losing the first matchup. I had him stimied with Devis, I was mulching thru his pieces slowly but surely.. when the HOB failed his rally check and would have been off the board I conceeded.. cause I thought we had 16 minutes left. we had 6. I could have run away from his speed 4 dwarves for 6 minutes and won on tile points. dammit. nobody's fault but mine. again - that could have made the rest of the day look very different. again I cry - why couldnt I have faced the five chraals tied to Snig? | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 01/29/2006 10:48 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ack
I was talking with Fenris and came upon an epiphany.. I kept saying "a few key rolls here or there".. the band shouldnt win or lose on a few key rolls. and it shouldnt be a common mantra. Either the band didnt work or I just dont play that well. The game can be won or lost on a die roll or 4.. but not every match... that might be me beating myself up about this tho.
I'd modify that epiphany a bit. Against solid bands that are relatively even, piloted excellently, the game will almost always come down to a few (or one) dice rolls. The reason we stress about the right bands to play and practice is so that we can be in position to a) crush weaker bands or players who make a significant mistake, or b) depend on luck against a strong opponent, just as he is depending on luck against us (since neither of us made significant mistakes).
This game punishes mistakes (or weaker bands) severely. Against a good opponent playing well, the game coming down to one lucky roll can be a validation that you played well enough to match him.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 01/29/2006 11:03 AM |
| So Ack. Let me say this again (and if you've read the skirmish forums you've seen me say it) ... and maybe now it will mean more to you.
Gimmicks and combos win games.
A good gimmick can even win a few games. If it is a small event, you've got a chance to win a tournament with a gimmicky band. Some of us won 3-rounds with monk bands before the Gith Monk came out, and we relied on the luck of matchups.
Resiliency and reliability wins big tournaments
In a big event you can't rely on the one or two tricks your pony can perform. You will run into good players playing seriously tricky or hard bands and you need a band that gives you the best chance to compete against ALL of them. You want as few really bad matchups as possible of the other expected "good" bands and players but you don't need overkill ... winning 150-100 is just as good as 200-0.
This is similar to the sports analogy that defense wins championships ... not necessarily point-denial, but what you want is a reliable and predictable behavior from your band.
I think I'll start this topic in the general forum so we can discuss. Last week was the week of activations, this week will be the week of resiliency. | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 01/29/2006 12:33 PM |
| I've already provided some detail up above, but I'll try to flesh things out a bit:
For some reason (partly burnout, partly crazy family schedules) I was only able to participate in a handfull (2?) of event between GenCon 2004 and WF 05. It certainly hadn't been my plan to duplicate that effort, but the fact is, I've played even less since GenCon05 and now!
SO, I spent the last week trying to get back in gear. I intended to pick my band, and play a round or 2 on vassal on Tuesday night. Instead I had a classic case of Option Paralysis. So many choices, so, so MANY counters.
I go back to a lesson that I can't preach enough. Everytime I have have had extraordinary success with a warband, it has been with a band which I am intimatley familiar with. Likewise, EVERY time I have had a spectacular failure, it was been because I was NOT familiar with the band!
SO, I immediatley wanted to find an Archmage combo (with the right map). Of all the figures from the last 2 sets, I'm certainly most familiar with him. I had assumed we would see Helmed Horrors, but I thought we'd some some GAS bands as well. In fact, looking at the previous NE Open report I really thought some people would roll out the GAS bands (as only 1 was rolled out last time). I weighed my options between the importance of Aramil vs Countersong. I really wanted both, but in the end, I couldn't find a band that could incporate both.
Likewise, I wasn't happy with any combo for the Archmage. I looked for a while at (of all things) the Renegade Warlock. He's a nice compliment to the archmage. Flies, conceal etc. I liked the fact hat he could auto damage for 10, event against Quoatl bands. But their was nothing to slow the enemey down, if I did that. Next up was a 2x Half Ogre Barbarian with the Archmage. I wasn't comfortable with that either.
In the end, I thought I'd go with an established band. SOMEONE had playtested them, even if I hadn't. That said, I didn't want to be "like everyone else", and frankly, I only own 1 HH! SO, I went with the triple Frenzy band.
My next mistake was my map. I stared at them all, and felt most comfortable with Drow Outpost. I was REALLY over planning for those monks. I wanted to control their flow into my backfield, and thought that it would do the best job. Little did I know what I'd really face!
First round:
Midnight Afterpart/Adam Zaremba
Penta Chrall.
I won map, and immedately made a blunder, but allowing him to actiate first. He was able to move a Chrall right up onto MY end of the bridge (because he could fight his band comfortably on the start area, one of the chrall's was sticking out a bit, just enough to make that move). Next up I screwed up my GMA, basing with 2 of the FB's before I activated the Marshall. Then the breathweapons started to go off. I was REALLY feeling like I was toast. I had send one FB around the back, and was able to finally get some things going. One FB Double attacked, and routed the chrall blocking the bridge, AoO killed him ( and hurt the hell out of me). GMA'd the other forward FB, and the end around FB to base the other Chrall blocking the bridge. At this point the rolls were REALLY going my way. The FB's were making 75% of their Saves against the cones, and deathbursts. Likewise, Adam had failed 2 of 3 Morale checks. Lastly my first 5 swings with the FB had all connected. Dice WILL even out though....
As described above it came down to another Chrall that routed (I choose not to AoO, hoping it would run off, I couldn't afford a lost save on a deathburst). I ran an FB up to apply the -2, but Adam rolled just fine, and that was game...
Snig, FYI was WELL hidden. Particularly on MY map (well, heck on his too), their was no way for me to move my pieces near Snig. I had a "slight" chance. The move was with the GMA, which placed 2 Xeph's inside the guard room on the Drow Outpost. I would have had to have a Xeph kill one of the goblin shield, and then double move the "around about" FB, through 2 AoO from Chrall to enter the building. Then win Initiative, and swing at Snig. it was possible, but Adam saw it, and moved a Chrall up to block the entrace to the room, and use his last Breathweapon on the Xeph's. In the end, the move DID likely give me my chance to win, as I couldn't have taken another cone at that time...
0-1
Round 2
Joe Creighton.
Joe REALLY knew his warband. He also REALLY knew his map. He won Map Init, and he knew exactly how to place his Red Sam's. He had them in a perfect alignedment, which allowed him several perfect cones to him ME, but not hit is own band. they also limited access to my scoring zone, while his Cursed spirit had no problems getting to his.
That said, I thought I played the game very well. I made 1 mistake (which was significant...), which with all my rust, I should have planned on it! I used the GMA with good effect, allowing me to kill the Tiefling on the start of Round 2. The Cones went flying, and but I was still standing, and the Red Sam's were starting to fall.
I had a critical moment, where he had a Red Sam 5 HP's away from Morale. I didn't like my chances with teh Xeph next to him, and I didn't want to waste my activation with the FB that was basing him. SO, I decided to CHARGE the IM into the scrum. Of course he missed even with him +9 on the charge. I can't remember exactly what happened (crit?), but he was killed moments later. Then of course, plan B, the Xeph, who hit, and the Red sam routed (and was killed by the FB). The loss of the IM was significant... I had a +4 advantage on Initiative, and I threw it away.
In the end, it boiled down to our 2 key pieces left. FB Vs Red Sam. If I win Initiative, I kill the last red sam, and win. If he wins, he dispatches my FB, and win.
Just like my first game, the dice had been pretty darned fair to me, but not with that last roll!
0-2
Round 3
Nick Brown.
TWO Ogre Ravagers?! WHAT the heck were 2 Ogre Ravagers doing in a field with HH, Chrall's, and marut's? Well, of course I would get paired up. This was my match that just wasn't close. In this match the dice didn't go my way (missing 2 conceal rolls on the Tiefling, and 2 on the Cursed Spirit). We were done in 30 minutes, with my entire band eliminated. I killed the Orc Champ, and the Tiefling, and had forced morale on one of the Rav's.
BLEH!
0-3
My last match (round 5 I was the last seed with a bye...)
It was great to meet Ack (James), and get to play a round with him.
The pressure was off both of us at this point. He had the tech, I had the Muscle. Classic match up. Just like people have experienced with Straight GAS vs. GAS+ Quoatl, we found the same thing.
We exchanged FB's, leaving him with 1, and me with 2. I held my GMA, and did 60 to the 1/2 Ogre, who routed. I was then able to move up and Sacrifice a FB. One attack on his FB killed it, it deathstriked into mine, which killed me. I then Deathstruck into the routing gore. That was pretty much it. Had I rolled a few ones at the end, he'd have had a chance ( and I did miss on conceal on the Wizard Tac once...).
So, 1-3.
Expect to see me on Vassal a bit more now.... The Off Season is OVER.
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 01/29/2006 5:03 PM |
| Out of curiosity what kind of entry fee was involved for all those boosters as prizes?
And playing 5 chraals with snig takes a pair. hehe. | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 01/29/2006 6:00 PM |
| The entry fee was $15. When Adam first unveiled the Snig+ 5 Chraal band at Battlegrounds, we all scoffed. But he won more than he lost, so he convinced us he wasn't too crazy [:)].
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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The_Duke
Sneak
158 Posts
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 01/29/2006 7:19 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by The_Duke
Pat,
quote:
One thing--did Snig actually keep the HHs under command, or did you use rush for the most part?
On Drow Outpost (my chosen map), I usually started from the outpost side, and split the HH -two lined up to charge down the bridge, and two lined up to charge across the bridge from the side. The first two were always in command, and flanking HH were not. On round two, I almost always was able to rush the flankers right onto the bridge (and thus tile points) and into combat without needing to be in command. For flyers, the rush rules are very forgiving. The two HH lined up with the bridge would then move under command to where they needed to be.
On all other maps, I huddled up snig behind a wall of 3 HH, with a fourth one a little further advanced (but still under command) to where he could get tile points on round two. So, on these maps, all HH were under command at least for their round 2 move. Often I would then fling one or two HH forward to base some enemy tech piece. These HH might be ooc on round three, but that rarely mattered, because they were fine. By round four, it was usually clear to me that the enemy was not going after Snig. They realized, as I did when designing the band, that the HH don't need to be under command very much after round 2, and did not deem Snig worth the effort. with Snig more at liberty, I would frequently move him in round 4 to get remaining HH in command for any useful adjustments. The flexibility of rush means that these adjustments were nice but not critical. Does that help?
Pat Lynch
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Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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Toxic_Rat
Sergeant
745 Posts
Lehi, Utah, USA
| | 01/29/2006 7:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
I go back to a lesson that I can't preach enough. Everytime I have have had extraordinary success with a warband, it has been with a band which I am intimatley familiar with. Likewise, EVERY time I have had a spectacular failure, it was been because I was NOT familiar with the band!
...snip...
Pat E
This is good advice. Thanks for the great write-up. I've always been a fan of the IM/FB grouping. It's good to glean some insight from your experience running it in todays environment. | |
Any time you try to make something idiot-proof, someone always goes out and invents a better idiot.
Champion of Siege Equipment | |
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BudLeiser
Warrior
218 Posts
| | 01/29/2006 9:55 PM |
| #4 (Adam Zaremba 4-1) LE
Snig the Axe 20
Chraal x5 175
Duergar Warrior 4
Goblin Skirmisher x (minions)
10 activations, 199 points
Map: Drow Enclave
This guy is my hero! The sheer balls to practice and bring this to a tourney. And then top4 with it! Hero I say! | |
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Venator
Skirmisher
42 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 12:31 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ack
You know.. I dont know if I would have believed Snig + 5 Chraals would be a top place finish... why couldnt I (running a Wizard Tact) have faced him..
Thing is... i highly doubt you'd get to see snig. People dont understand how incredibly difficult it is to even threaten him. At speead 8, the Chraals just double move up and go from there. Small maps and all... | |
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Venator
Skirmisher
42 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 12:32 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Toxic_Rat
Surprising on the Frenzied B's...I would have expected a better showing. Were their games close, or did they get blown out?
they were very close as im sure Pat will tell you all. A move or two different and they would have beat both the 5 chraals and 4 sams. | |
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Venator
Skirmisher
42 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 1:31 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
Penta-Chraal is interesting thats for sure, hats off to Adam for running it and doing so well. I just keep thinking of what if someone ran the IM/FBx2/Wizard Tactx2 I saw not long ago. But I guess if Snig just never shows his face you can go run with it. When speed 2 goes away that might even become more viable. Just leave snig on the start area and hide.
exactly | |
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Venator
Skirmisher
42 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 1:38 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Faragdar the Wise
I'm floored by the success of the Marut, too. I figured it was getting a mention mostly because it was meant as an anti-Gith monk piece. What makes this guy so successful? The Mounted Paladin has the same AC and a tad more hp (also fearless), but folks complained that he was way too squishy. Now, along comes this construct which is also extremely expensive and he's kicking butt? Are construct immunities really worth that much?
thing is, the Marut kills ANY unit in 1 round. EVERYTHING gets 1 rounded... Either they 2x Snake Swiftness for 90 damage or they SS and slap for 90 damage. its rough. They have the high AC, cant be crit, cant be stunned, have DR, and dont take much (if anything) from energy damage.
I really like the kids build with Rika, CoO, and the dwarf wizard. All were GREAT metagame choices. Rika is a bit more damage and some beef to get in the way. She can also make things rough on squishy support. The CoO brings +2 AC, Commander 5 (which is huge when playing the Marut), and TURN UNDEAD for those Cursed Spirits that are sure to appear in CE bands these days.
We talked about it afterwards... "what beats it?" The conclusion was that 3x FB beats it most of the time (Deathstrike for the win!), and a quad running 2x eyes gives it trouble.
We also asked "what would you take to a tourney INSTEAD of the Marut right now?" The answers werent much of anything... Pat Lynch likes his HH's and im inclined to agree. The HH's are outstanding vs. the "predicted" field. Otherwise we did have any answers. Marut is really THAT good. | |
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Venator
Skirmisher
42 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 1:57 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by BudLeiser
#4 (Adam Zaremba 4-1) LE
Snig the Axe 20
Chraal x5 175
Duergar Warrior 4
Goblin Skirmisher x (minions)
10 activations, 199 points
Map: Drow Enclave
This guy is my hero! The sheer balls to practice and bring this to a tourney. And then top4 with it! Hero I say!
lol, practice... we dont practice. well maybe a little.
I was the first person to tell him hes an idiot for even thinking about fielding it on one of our Wednesday night tourneys at Battleground. He said something like "who cares, itll be fun... besides, i think its gonna be a lot tougher to get snig than you think."
So after a small amount of talk we decided that its worst match-up was dual LRD (flying, speed 8, big damage higher DC breath). So he and i played it out. He either didnt catch the move i had, or had snig in the wrong spot, but i was able to get him. Naturally he wanted a rematch, and Declan wanted to play against it.. so he did and Adam just tweaked his placement and won.
For all the people that question it or dimiss it: Sit down and use it. Its a ton of fun, and its really pretty easy to keep snig safe. Most of the time Adam is very forward with 3 of them, and holds two back to "block" so to speak. If things look like Snig is fine (and he almost always is) he will bring up 1 or 2 of the defensive Chraals round two. | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 8:46 AM |
| Venator,
Good to see you back on the boards!
Interesting note about the Snig's Adam and I ran. In the 10 matches that we played between us, no one ever got any attacks or special abilities off on Snig. He can be protected if you are careful. Of course, Adam had to be fanatically careful. I just had to keep Snig alive until round 3, when people would correctly realize that the HH didn't need him anymore (they were fully engaged against the proper targets) and that 20 points wasn't worth the effort it would take to kill him.
On the Marut: Declan (who ran CE Quad) debriefed me on his match with Scott's Marut band on the car ride home. Declan actually had the match locked down in the final round, but made a positioning error that allowed Scott to kill the Tiefling with the Marut on the last activation (Declan could have blocked off access). That kill was the margin of victory. So in that case, better play by Scott overcame the tough matchup that CE Quad presented to him.
As you know, I think the Quad HH could win nearly 50% of the time against the Marut (unless I blow the Gravity saves on turn 1).
New idea: I suspect Rakshasa and 4 Duergar Champs could prevail a respectable percentage of the time. The Rak would give the Duergars the Coatl's effect and make the Marut only hit for 20 damage. The DCs at least do straight 15 magic damage, so they just need to make some morale saves and stick around long enough to roll 5 12s(or 10s with flanking). It might be worth checking out.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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tomlivak
Skirmisher
19 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 9:27 AM |
| First, a plea. At the last NE Open, I apparently lost my Fane of Lolth map and grabbed someone's Drow Enclave. The most likely person would have been Andre Sirois, my last opponent, but he wasn't at this tournament, so I couldn't ask him. Did anyone find they have two Fane of Lolth?
I came to the tournament with two bands (the other a LE Helmed Horror, Duergar, Naga something or other), and decided to play the Marut at the last second. Pretty glad about that [:)].
Round 1:
James Vaughn
Dark Naga
Beholder
Half-Elf Hexblade
Destrachan
Imp
Map: Fane of Lolth
This was a bad matchup for James. With the Marut taking point, I was pretty much invulnerable to the beholder and just beat through the rest of his band. He even rolled a 19 for his first eye ray, but the Marut made the distegrate save. 1-0
Round 2:
Mark Saleeba
Rakshasa
Gauth
Chraal
Duegar Champion x2
Gravehound
Duergar Warrior
Map: Mithral Mines
I was worried about the Rakshasa, being able to take the Coautl's effect and reduce my Marut to 20 damage. I tried to keep the Coautl's out of his Rakshasa's sights, and he never moved the Rakshasa to get their effect. I let him know afterward's that would have been a good move. The Marut was able to beat through his hitters, pretty much ignoring the Gauth. 2-0
Round 3:
Adam Zaremba
Snig the Axe
Chraal x5
Duergar Warrior
Goblin Skirmisher x3 (minions)
Map: Drow Enclave
Adam played this really well. With 5 Chraals, and their speed, it's pretty easy to block off access to Snig. I managed to ray of enfeeblement two of his Chraals before Aramil was routed off, making the Chraal's only do 5 damage in the Coautl's effect (and 0 to the Marut). Adam smartly ignored the Marut, trying to kill the Coautls, but wasn't able to do so. Eventually the Marut broke through his Chraals and got pretty close to Snig, and I still had both Coautls. Adam conceeded at this point. 3-0
Round 4:
Bruce McLean
Greenfang Druid
Dire Bear
Evermeet Wizard
Celestial Pegasus
Winter Wolf
Celestial Dire Badger
(summoned 6 figures worth 30 points)
Map: Mithral Mines
This one was closer then I wanted it to be. We fought it out the lower corridor of the Mithral Mines, but he flew the Pegasus into my backlines mucking with Coautl placement. I was able to enfeeble the Pegasus and not worry about it too much though. It did come down one round where his Dire Bear and my Marut were head to head, each with 30 hit points left. I was lucky to win initative, and finish off his bear, and then attack his commander and the Evermeet wizard. Bruce was also good at summoning a bunch of wolves in the middle of my forces, flanking the Marut, and screwing up Coautl positioning again (since they were based I had to move them to cast anymore Snake's Swiftness). Bruce definitely taught me I need to think about troop placement differently when faced flying units. 4-0
Round 5:
Scott McLean
Coatl
Cleric of Order
Marut
Rika, Angelic Avenger
Dwarf Wizard
Jozan, Cleric of Pelor
Hill Dwarf Warrior
Map: Drow Outpost
Ugh, I could have won this one. One stupid mistake on my part and a bad roll cost me the match. However, I did crit on Rikka and she rolled a 1 for her first attack. I think that Scott's band had a better matchup against mine, with Rikka as an extra beater. Scott managed to kill my Marut first (so close!), and my band dissolved after that. 4-1
The tournament was really great, and I had a lot of fun. Everyone played really well, and there was good variety of different bands. Thanks for TJs for excellent hosting, and Pat and whoever else has been working to organize these tournaments. And Runelord for the gloriously painted trophies!
quote:
Originally posted by Ack
I could go back and find where I tried to defend Marut as a piece to watch.. but i will just remember it and not worry about it too much. Its one of those things that I cant grasp.. it only has 75 hit points.. why doesnt it just fall over dead when faced with.. er.. Frenzies for example.
I think the Marut would be hard pressed against Frenzied Beserkers. Against chaotic bands in general (ie highly mobile, high damage bands), the Marut can be in trouble. Last NE Open I piloted a Marut-Couatl-Cleric Of Order band (though Scott's was much better), and got 12th place. I did pretty poorly against all the CE bands that showed up from Canada.
quote:
Originally posted by guyf
Awesome. Go LG!
Out of curiosity, which Marut / Single-Minded ruling were you guys using? I only updated my clarifications page around 9am PST; was that too late for you guys to see the change?
I was using the old rule, where the Marut can't ever really base a commander. Didn't matter too much, but I was annoyed when I got home and found out the ruling had changed!
quote:
Originally posted by Faragdar the Wise
I'm floored by the success of the Marut, too. I figured it was getting a mention mostly because it was meant as an anti-Gith monk piece. What makes this guy so successful? The Mounted Paladin has the same AC and a tad more hp (also fearless), but folks complained that he was way too squishy. Now, along comes this construct which is also extremely expensive and he's kicking butt? Are construct immunities really worth that much?
Here's what makes the Marut better (IMHO):
Construct immuntities: critical hits, paralysis, stun, etc. In particular immuntity to criticals means there's no chance someone gets lucky and obliterates your Marut.
DR 5: With the Coautl, Helmed Horrors and Chraals are only doing 5 damage to the Marut.
Spell Resistance: I don't think this matter in my matches, but it helps.
Higher damage output: With 2 Coautls, you can move your Marut, and still do 90 damage in one round, killing almost anything. With two Coautls, if you move the Mounted Paladin, you can only do 60 (unless you can charge, but that's harder to set up).
Melee Reach 2: You can move the Marut to attack someone, and not be worried about them getting a full attack on you.
-24 points: the Marut costs a lot less too.
The only downside really is that you can't heal the Marut. Single-minded is kinda annoying at times, but hasn't been too much of a problem.
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Champion of the Invisible Stalker! | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 9:40 AM |
| | but with a GMA I only needed to be within 12 steps of SEEING him to get off the EMM. | |
Minis... Serious Business
Completed Trades (18 ) | Pending Trades (0)
Ebay seller to Avoid –Fantasy_Quest_Dist
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tomlivak
Skirmisher
19 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 9:41 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by lynchpt
New idea: I suspect Rakshasa and 4 Duergar Champs could prevail a respectable percentage of the time. The Rak would give the Duergars the Coatl's effect and make the Marut only hit for 20 damage. The DCs at least do straight 15 magic damage, so they just need to make some morale saves and stick around long enough to roll 5 12s(or 10s with flanking). It might be worth checking out.
Indeed, that's why I was worried about my second match. I think 3 Duergars and a flying beater could be bad for the Marut as well, as you can fly the beater behind the Marut to muck with the Coautls. Although, the choices for flying beaters in LE (Helmed Horror, Efreeti) aren't as great due to the energy damage they deal.
Pat, I'm curious how quad Helmed Horror would have done against my band. With two Coautls I could have used a couple undeniable gravities to increase the chances of you losing flying, and ray of enfeeblement can really hurt the Helmed Horrors. | |
Champion of the Invisible Stalker! | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
930 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 10:22 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by tomlivak
quote:
Originally posted by lynchpt
New idea: I suspect Rakshasa and 4 Duergar Champs could prevail a respectable percentage of the time. The Rak would give the Duergars the Coatl's effect and make the Marut only hit for 20 damage. The DCs at least do straight 15 magic damage, so they just need to make some morale saves and stick around long enough to roll 5 12s(or 10s with flanking). It might be worth checking out.
Indeed, that's why I was worried about my second match. I think 3 Duergars and a flying beater could be bad for the Marut as well, as you can fly the beater behind the Marut to muck with the Coautls. Although, the choices for flying beaters in LE (Helmed Horror, Efreeti) aren't as great due to the energy damage they deal.
Pat, I'm curious how quad Helmed Horror would have done against my band. With two Coautls I could have used a couple undeniable gravities to increase the chances of you losing flying, and ray of enfeeblement can really hurt the Helmed Horrors.
Tom,
I suspect that the matchup against you would have been even tougher for me than Scott's band. At least his band had a couple of weaker pieces (CoO, Dwarf Wizard) that I could kill to get up on points. I couldn't even kill one of his Coatl's between it making morale and having heal spells. Killing two would be very tough, meaning that the Marut would be untouchable by HH the whole match. Even if I managed to kill both Coatls, you surely would have killed 2 HH by then. My only hope would be at least one and hopefully both Coatls routing (~25% chance of both routing) andgetting way up on tile points. My real best hope would be some CE heavy hitters (one of your worse matchups, I would think) taking care of you before we faced. It looks like you were able to avoid the beaters, so it looks like your metagaming choice worked out [:)].
Congrats on the excellent showing!
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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XAos
Underboss
2403 Posts
London
| | 01/30/2006 10:45 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by tomlivak
Here's what makes the Marut better (IMHO):
Construct immuntities: critical hits, paralysis, stun, etc. In particular immuntity to criticals means there's no chance someone gets lucky and obliterates your Marut.
DR 5: With the Coautl, Helmed Horrors and Chraals are only doing 5 damage to the Marut.
Spell Resistance: I don't think this matter in my matches, but it helps.
Higher damage output: With 2 Coautls, you can move your Marut, and still do 90 damage in one round, killing almost anything. With two Coautls, if you move the Mounted Paladin, you can only do 60 (unless you can charge, but that's harder to set up).
Melee Reach 2: You can move the Marut to attack someone, and not be worried about them getting a full attack on you.
-24 points: the Marut costs a lot less too.
The only downside really is that you can't heal the Marut. Single-minded is kinda annoying at times, but hasn't been too much of a problem.
All good points.
You only missed blindsight, A Marut can kill a Tiefling Captain on any roll except a 1. | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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tomlivak
Skirmisher
19 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 11:02 AM |
| [/quote]
All good points.
You only missed blindsight, A Marut can kill a Tiefling Captain on any roll except a 1.
[/quote]
Dang, I did forget blindsight, and it's one of favorite things about the Marut! Nothing's better than beating down a Duergar, Tiefling, what have you, and getting to answer your opponent's "conceal check?" with "blindsight."
It really adds to the inevitableness[:)] of the Marut's damage. Other high attack bonus figures can reliably hit high ACs, but there's always a chance it will miss versus conceal. Not so with the Marut. You can really rely on him to put out the damage. | |
Champion of the Invisible Stalker! | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 01/30/2006 11:27 AM |
| | A fear on that Penta-Chraal would have to be Giths though. If you left ONE path open, a gith will take the attacks of opportunity from the Chraals everytime and get into the backfield to Unavoidable strike Snig. It really requires no available paths against them. If im running Giths I will let 5 Chraals swing AoOs at me if I have to try and divebomb Snig. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
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