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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
    
 | | 04/09/2006 12:13 AM |
| I just spoke to LCS on the phone. These tidbits:
(1) LCS placed 5th, with a Slayer of Domiel band.
(2) Smyrin placed either 4th or 3rd.
(3) Derry and Dagni are playing for the championship right now.
(4) Derry is playing Helmed Horrors ... LCS thinks quad-HH, but isn't sure.
(5) Dagni is playing Chraals ... LCS thinks quad-Chraal, but isn't sure.
So far as LCS mentioned, not a dual-HGB band in the top five. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1366 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 12:19 AM |
| | Thanks Wayne. | | | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 04/09/2006 12:37 AM |
| Thanks Jeff.
Way to go Louis ... I'm curious what version of the band he settled upon for the tourney ...
I'm betting it is quad-chraal for Dagni - and I'd bet it was Drow outpost. If I were a wagering man, the full bet would be : 4X Chraal, 2 X Timber Wolf, 1 X Human Blackguard and 1X Warrior Skeleton (or goblin skirmisher). | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 1:17 AM |
| Great intel, Jeff.
Grats to Louis on placing well. I'd love to hear how what he went with as well. And I wonder who the other player in the Top 5 was.
My only regret is we might have to hear more complaints from you about the HH. [)] But seriously, I can imagine it's an exciting match right now. I'm not surprised about the identity of either player in the finals. | |
Champion of Neogi
Completed Trades/Transactions: sttmxn, Krush, jgsugden, Ayrychx2, Venport, Tysac
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kmelstrom
Sneak
173 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 2:26 AM |
| The other band in the top four was a coautl, aspect of kord, and arcane ballista band.
Robert took first, then Derry, then Sven, and the fourth I can't remember his name. | |
http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=kmelstrom | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 2:29 AM |
| Good thing Quad Helmed Horrors isn't Tier 1, otherwise he'd have won.
Right Guy? [:D] | |
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John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 2:47 AM |
| Too bad NorCal lost against the SoCal aristocracy...
but I'm actually relieved, in a way.
Derry just HAD to pick Quad Helmed Horrors... It would have been sad to see Doranur trade his collection for a Big Mac. LOL [:o)] | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 3:02 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by John05
Too bad NorCal lost against the SoCal aristocracy...
but I'm actually relieved, in a way.
Derry just HAD to pick Quad Helmed Horrors... It would have been sad to see Doranur trade his collection for a Big Mac. LOL [:o)]
It was a Whopper and the requirement was that quad HHs win at GenCon Indy. [)]
Can't wait to hear how the whole tournament went down. | |
Champion of Neogi
Completed Trades/Transactions: sttmxn, Krush, jgsugden, Ayrychx2, Venport, Tysac
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 3:08 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kmelstrom
The other band in the top four was a coautl, aspect of kord, and arcane ballista band.
Robert took first, then Derry, then Sven, and the fourth I can't remember his name.
It was Derry's title to lose since he won last time, so congrats to Robert for taking the title away.
As much as I would have enjoyed seeing NorCal win for a second consecutive CA Open, it's fitting that SoCal won this time.
Sounds like a mirror of how the first CA Open went down. SoCal came up and ended up 2nd, with NorCal winning 1st, 3rd, and 4th places. Now, NorCal goes down and ends up 2nd, with SoCal winning 1st, 3rd, and 4th.
Gratz to SoCal and all who played well. | |
Champion of Neogi
Completed Trades/Transactions: sttmxn, Krush, jgsugden, Ayrychx2, Venport, Tysac
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John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 3:43 AM |
| Ok, so it's not for a Big Mac...
But, even for the almighty Whopper, I would rather not see NorCal lose a good player over an overconfident remark about Helmed Horrors and some bad luck... [:(!] (or to sadistic, conspiring gamers who want to see a fellow gamer lose his collection...)
Feathers,
I think the results you gave are evidence for how event locality matters in this NorCal vs SoCal rivalry.
It makes me glad that the qualifiers this year happen in Santa Clara (NorCal) this year. [}:)]
~John | |
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Krush
Commander
3852 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 4:26 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Feathers
quote:
Originally posted by kmelstrom
The other band in the top four was a coautl, aspect of kord, and arcane ballista band.
Robert took first, then Derry, then Sven, and the fourth I can't remember his name.
It was Derry's title to lose since he won last time, so congrats to Robert for taking the title away.
As much as I would have enjoyed seeing NorCal win for a second consecutive CA Open, it's fitting that SoCal won this time.
Sounds like a mirror of how the first CA Open went down. SoCal came up and ended up 2nd, with NorCal winning 1st, 3rd, and 4th places. Now, NorCal goes down and ends up 2nd, with SoCal winning 1st, 3rd, and 4th.
Gratz to SoCal and all who played well.
Don't forget we also finished 5th. 2 of 5 isn't that bad.
Congrats to all. Chomping at the bit for a full report.
NoCal rocks! | |
Gehenna | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 7:10 AM |
| An arcane ballista band seriously came in 4th?
Whoa. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1366 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 9:23 AM |
| | Luminaries ... bah! Bah, I say! | | | |
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Aravis
Underboss
1155 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 9:28 AM |
| Why dont you guys just wait a few hours till the full report? And he can hear about my bad luck..
Derry played 3x HH, not Quad (2nd). Robert was 4x Chraal (Dire Rat for that last 4 pts..NOST) (1st), Sven played Dual Hill (3rd), and lastly I forget his name..Apsect of Kord, Coautl, Arcane Balista (PWNZOR), Protectar, WF Scout, Man At Arms, Cleric of Order, Human Commoner Map: Demongate. | |
Welcome to Eternal Crack...
"Corn is no place for a mighty warrior!"
Champion of the Frost Salamander | |
| DDM Constructed Champion 2006
derry
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 11:13 AM |
| More to follow in the official thread (to be started when normal people wake up)
Norcal-Centric Mini Report
Robert Hatch (Dagni) won with HBG, Chraal x 4, TW x 2, Dire Rat on Drow Outpost
I got second place (cry) with a Rakshasa, HH x 3, Warrior Skeleton x 3, Dark Moon Monk on Drow Outpost
Third was Sven Myrin (smyrin) with Tiefling Captain, HGB x 2, OW x 4, Curse Spirit on Tele Temple
Also third was Scott ?? (new guy, ~20th game) with Couatl, Aspect of Kord, Arcane Ballista, Cleric of Order, filler on Broken Demongate.
Louis Sacha (LCS, Norcal) got 5th with a single Slayer of Domiel build
Guy Fullerton played the Dark Naga, HH x 3, Warrior Skeleton x 3, Dark Moon Monk on Drow Outpost
Eric Cleaver (doranur) and Matt Bachman (Avaris) ran Drow SGT, HGB x 2, OW x 3, Orc Wardrummer on Dragonshrine
Ray Snyder (ninjaray) ran Chraal hate in the first: Death Knight x 2, Cleric of Nerull, WS x 4
Mike Benton ran Tiefling Captain, HGB x 2, Hyena, Orc Wardrummer (Jason Lioi ran the same warband but with the Cleric of Gruumsh instead of the Tiefling Captain)
edit: Mike and Jason had Hyena instead of Orc Warrior, I am starting to wake up and remember it was a hyena
Glyn Dewey won the second tournament with Sword Archon, 6 Sacred Watches, Miale
Norcal did otherwise very well and we all had a great time at the event. For those who missed it, try to make it next time, these are great events.
8 Norcal players total went to the event that had 29 participants total:
Michael Derry, Glyn Dewey, Matt Bachman, Eric Cleaver, Ray Snyder, Louis Sacha, Guy Fullerton, Mike Benton (Norcal Sac) | |
Member of the Low Post Count but High Post Content Society | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 04/09/2006 12:41 PM |
| | The Arcane Ballista success is interesting. I'd be interested in seeing a list of the matches he won, and the matches where he got to use his map. | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 12:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
The Arcane Ballista success is interesting. I'd be interested in seeing a list of the matches he won, and the matches where he got to use his map.
Me too. I kept scrapping my builds because they were all too map-dependent. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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Temperance
Sergeant
522 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 1:17 PM |
| | I'm certainly interested in which trophy each winner took! | |
Champion of the common Flying Monkey (Fez optional)
Peter Lee on the WotC board
BAD WOLF
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 1:43 PM |
| 29 players?
Damn, 1 bigger then the Midwest open. A new challenge to overcome [:)]
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| D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 1:44 PM |
| Smyrin will be posting lots of details later on. He has all of the printouts and warband registration sheets.
I might write up a longer report later, but here's something for now:
I ran Dark Naga, 3x Helmed Horror, Dark Moon Monk, 3x Warrior Skeleton on Drow Outpost. I wanted a strong overall warband that minimized the number of critical die rolls I needed to make that could regularly beat Chraals and had a fighting chance against Hill Giant Barbarians. I chose the Dark Naga over the Rakshasa because of the added offense.
However, based on all the warbands in the tournament, I *should* have brought a warband that could regularly beat Hill Giant Barbarians and which had a fighting chance against Chraals. There were 8 (IIRC) dual-HGB warbands, 1 single HGB warband (plus Chimera), and only 2 multi-Chraal warbands in the tournament.
As far as the other pillars go, there were three multi-HH warbands: Derry's (Rakshasa + 3HH, 6-2 record), mine (Dark Naga + 3HH, 2-3 record), and Paul Grasshoff's (4HH, 4-2 record). There were no multi-monk warbands. There were at least three Aspect of Moradin + Marut warbands.
Match 1 vs. Matt Sanchez: Tiefling Cap; 2x HGB; Orc Wardrummer; Heyna; Broken Demongate.
I won map init (chose Drow Outpost) and setup init (chose side B / hut).
I used a self-targeted lightning bolt to zap the Tiefling and an HGB. The Tiefling failed its save, but succeded on its morale save. Melee ensued on the bridge. Matt missed the HHs the expected amount of time, and I was able to move HHs in to cover each other, so damage couldn't be concentrated on one of them. This was enough for me to kill one HGB and still have two HH left. Because of the second lightning bolt, my remaining two HH were in good position to kill the second HGB, but the game ended quicker than that because Matt's second HGB failed its morale save and left the map.
Result: Win. 1-0
Match 2 vs. Robert Hatch: Human Blackguard; 4x Chraal; 2x Timber Wolf; Dire Rat; Drow Outpost.
Drow Outpost was used; we both brought it. Robert won setup init and chose side B (hut).
We both played very slow. I took way too much time in the beginning of the match analyzing the right places for my HHs. Robert took way too much time, too, but I only have myself to blame for not getting an additional round in; my play speed was my own responsibility to control. We only got four rounds in. (!)
IMO, four rounds is an unreasonably low number of rounds to play. All of my other matches had considerably more rounds than that. IMO, I'm no longer sure Chraal denial warbands should remain a legit/legal warband concept in tournament play. I *strongly* object to the fact that they make both players extremeley cagey. IMO, this was Drider Sorcerer level of slow. (I didn't see the 2005 constructed championships, so I don't have any first-hand experience as to whether this same kind of problem occurred there.) Anyway...
Early luck went Robert's way, hitting with four out of four Chraal attacks (not flanked) on one HH. This allowed one HH to be eliminated on round three. I successfully pinned down his Blackguard on round three, who was bunkered in the hut. I hit him once that round. Chraals breathed and attacked a lot. On round four, I hit the Blackguard twice more and he passed morale. The Blackguard healed himself. I killed a Chraal, subjecting the Blackguard to a death burst (he saved). Then time ran out with the Blackguard at 25 hp. Robert had 88 points. I had 64.
Had we played faster, we would have gotten one more round in, which would have given me a fighting chance to kill the Blackguard. An init win would have given me a strong chance to win, with three swings on the Blackguard. An init loss would have given me a smaller chance to win, with a Chraal *possibly* killing a HH, and giving his Blackguard a chance to run to safety with just one AoO.
Despite my issues with our slow play, I'm pretty happy with this match. Robert is a much stronger player than I, and I was pleased to surprise him with my Dark Naga's moves, and to actually lock down and be swinging on the Blackguard.
Result: Lose. 1-1
Match 3 vs. Glyn Dewey: Cleric of Order; Couatl; 3x Justice Archon; Rikka, Angelic Avenger; Hill Dwarf Warrior; Man-at-Arms; Broken Demongate.
Glyn won map init and chose the Broken Demongate. Glyn won setup init and chose side B, the "good" side with the two start areas.
I'd never played against a matchup like this with HHs. I was unsure whether to eliminate the Cleric of Order or Couatl first. On a gut reaction, I went for the Cleric of Order. He died on round three. At that point, I was also basing his Couatl with 2 HHs, but taking lots of damage from Rikka, and a little damage from JAs in the process. One HH died that round. But now I had a strong init advantage (3 vs. 0), and the Couatl fell quickly at the start of the next round. Then I used a slapping hands spell to morale check an out of command JA, who flew off the board. Rikka died the next round. Another JA was an easy mop-up, and Glyn conceded in round 6. (That round's assault points for me would have pushed me over 200.)
Other notes: It was challenging to get magic weapons on all three HHs this match. The very aggressive HH position meant one casting had to wait until round four or five, IIRC. The aggressive HH position also meant we fought about 10 squares in from the edge of the "good" side. This gave me room to bring Warrior Skeletons into my victory area, so I got assault points for four rounds. Lesson: Sometimes being extremely aggressive is the best plan.
Result: Win. 2-1
Aside: At this point, I considered dropping to play in the secondary tournament. Although I was 2-1 and had a chance to make top four, I would have to win the rest of my matches to do it. This wouldn't be likely, given the caliber of the players at the tournament and the number of HGB still in the field. (There was an outside chance I could get in with one more loss, but it would come down to whether one player went undefeated in the swiss rounds, and how my tiebreakers looked.) I probably should have dropped, but I decided to stay in.
Match 4 vs. Eric Cleaver: Drow Sergeant; 2x HGB; Wardrummer; 3x Orc Warrior; Dragon Shrine.
I won map init and chose the Drow Outpost. I won setup init and chose side B, the hut side.
Tactical details aren't particularly important here. We fought on the bridge, where I needed the fight to happen, but both of us got roughly the same amount of good luck. Good luck benefits HGBs more than HHs in that matchup. My HHs took damage quickly. Though I killed one HGB, and his commander (slapping hands), he had destroyed all three HHs by this point, and I couldn't quite force the second HGB to make a morale save before Eric got enough assault points to win.
Result: Lose. 2-2
Match 5 vs. Gil Acosta: Urthok the Vicious; Helmed Horror; 2x Blood Ghost Berserker; Xorn; Dark Moon Monk; Timber Wolf; Goblin Skirmisher; Teleporter Temple.
Gil won map init and chose the Teleporter Temple. Gil won setup init and chose side A, the side with the five-square wide (IIRC) opening in the start area.
There were only four important details in this match:
1) Gil played great. He didn't make any mistakes that I could capitalize on.
2) Gil got first round assault points, and I could not. From side B, none of my creatures were fast enough to get to a scoring area. This meant I would be playing catch-up, which is not a good thing to be doing on the teleporter temple.
3) I made my only tactical mistake of the tournament: I sent two Warrior Skeletons into a victory area instead of blocking off some local teleporters.
4) Gil took advantage of that and made a very bold move that I didn't think he'd make. He sent a Blood Ghost Berserker in on a suicide run (via one of the teleporters I should have blocked) to attack my Dark Naga. I saw the potential for it, but I wasn't too worried about it. The BGB would have two chances to miss (+11 vs. AC 18, plus Conceal), and the Dark Naga would probably make her morale save. At that point, I would be able to kill the BGB, which would erase my points deficit. Unfortunately for me, the BGB hit the Dark Naga, succeded on the Conceal check, and the Dark Naga routed off the board! (Only 18.375% likely.)
That opened up a teleporter for Gil, so he brought his HH in to damage mine and camped on it.
That proved to be too large of a point deficit to come back from, particularly considering that he now owned one more teleporter, had a commanding init advantage, could deny me the kill on his HH, and could deny me kills on the fearless BGB. I chased around a bit, put some damage on the BGB and HH, and gambled on init wins, but I didn't get all the luck I needed.
Result: Lose. 2-3.
At this point, I was disappointed, but I was hopeful that I could battle back to a 3-3 record. A .500 winning percentage wouldn't be horrible in a tournament of this caliber, despite it being less than my goal. My goal right now isn't to win tournaments. My goal is to have my rating go up every tournament by winning more matches than I lose. A .500 winning percentage wouldn't help me meet my goal, but it wouldn't hurt my rating either.
And then my hopes were dashed on the rocks.
I got a bye for the final round. [:(]
Sure, I got a "win", and I ended up with 9 points, but it's just not the same. I was really 2-3, and that bugs the crap out of me.
Instead of dropping at 2-1 and playing another 4 matches in the secondary tournament, for a total of 7 matches, I only got to play 5 matches. [:(]
It was still a *really* fun time, but that detail is driving me crazy right now. Grrr. | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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alepulp
Underboss
1538 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 04/09/2006 2:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
2) Gil got first round assault points, and I could not. From side B, none of my creatures were fast enough to get to a scoring area. This meant I would be playing catch-up, which is not a good thing to be doing on the teleporter temple.
Although it seems luck was against you, Guyf, I'd say part of the issue was with the warband. Admittedly, Kobold Miners don't contribute a lot to the post first 2 rounds games, they are great blockers and they really can help on the Teleporter map. With 3 of them (per the Rasta Horrors build) you're likely to block access to the bridge on the outpost and possibly end up in the lead. The other issue that I've found with your particular build is its inability to protect its own. That's what slide is for (among other things) - take out the badly damaged horror and replace... If anything the HHs are best played as denial bands rather than aggressively.
Anyway - from your report it seems that you were unlucky also - it happens... Ce la Vie as the Greeks said....[)] | |
One of these days WoTC will update their tournament page when I'm in the top 5... they never seem to do when I'm in that bracket :(
My Collection My DDM Website And My Trade Refs Be a part of the UK DDM Forum
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Shadow_Fox
Underboss
1751 Posts
Litchfield, MN
| | 04/09/2006 2:14 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
IMO, four rounds is an unreasonably low number of rounds to play. All of my other matches had considerably more rounds than that. IMO, I'm no longer sure Chraal denial warbands should remain a legit/legal warband concept in tournament play. I *strongly* object to the fact that they make both players extremeley cagey. IMO, this was Drider Sorcerer level of slow. (I didn't see the 2005 constructed championships, so I don't have any first-hand experience as to whether this same kind of problem occurred there.) Anyway...
Wow... these are strong words, and from Guy no less. Strong implications there.
quote:
Originally posted by guyf
Early luck went Robert's way, hitting with four out of four Chraal attacks (not flanked) on one HH. This allowed one HH to be eliminated on round three. I successfully pinned down his Blackguard on round three, who was bunkered in the hut. I hit him once that round. Chraals breathed and attacked a lot. On round four, I hit the Blackguard twice more and he passed morale. The Blackguard healed himself. I killed a Chraal, subjecting the Blackguard to a death burst (he saved). Then time ran out with the Blackguard at 25 hp. Robert had 88 points. I had 64.
Guy, you performed excellently. Your skill got you to the place you needed to be and the dice just took over at that point. As top poker players usually say when eliminated, "Thats Poker".
quote:
Originally posted by guyf
I probably should have dropped, but I decided to stay in.
Bah, I think you made the right choice. You wanted to go for the gold. I would have done the same thing. Especially with those prizes on the line.
quote:
Originally posted by guyf
It was still a *really* fun time, but that detail is driving me crazy right now. Grrr.
Id be bugged too. You did very well. You just had some crummy dice rolls. Things could have gone a lot differently for you and you could have easily made the top 4 IMO. | |
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| D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 2:19 PM |
| @alepulp: The Warrior Skeletons were the right picks given the matchups I expected to face. They're critical for blocking Chraals, and they can't wreck your activation control the way Kobold Miners do.
I also disagree about luck. I had normal luck the whole tournament. The only instance of a short run of bad luck were the four-for-four Chraal hits in the match against Dagni, and that was recoverable; I still got onto his Blackguard. His Chraals hit the expected number of times overal.
Luck was irrelevant. Everything that I am disappointed about (which isn't a lot, really) can ultimately be blamed on a bad decision on my part. | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 04/09/2006 2:24 PM |
| Two things kind of bugged me when reading guyf's summary:
1.) It seemed that, whether intentionally or not, Robert Hatch was benefiting from slow play in the tournament. That disturbs me.
Perhaps there needs to be some consideration to providing a minimum number of rounds in large tournaments (6?), or recommending up to 75 minutes for each round? I played a nearly identical warband to this 4X Chraal band (using the same map) on Monday night. I finished each of my games with a victory either by reaching 200 points or by having my foe concede, and those victories came in less than 50 minutes. IIRC, 2 of those matches extended beyond 6 rounds...
When both players are playing on the map they prepared for the tournament, and both warbands were 8 pieces, it seems like there should have been no trouble reaching at least 6 rounds.
2.) Guy mentioned that he should have dropped after losing 1 match and being 2-1. Is this something that we really want to see in big tournaments? I am *NOT* saying that Guy did anything wrong (or would have been wrong to drop), but if 1 loss really creates a situation where it doesn't make sense to continue, why don't we go to single elimination in these tournaments? I have not really thought this whole subject through in detail, but seeing someone as good as Guf say he thought he should have dropped after 1 round makes me cringe a bit.
If we did make tournaments single elimination, then we could start a new tournament after each round so that anyone that lost in the prior round could still be playing in a tournament that made sense for them... I think this issue needs some more consideration before I'd be prepared to recommend a specific change, but it does seem there is some room to make a sensible change here.
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Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
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| D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 2:37 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
1.) It seemed that, whether intentionally or not, Robert Hatch was benefiting from slow play in the tournament. That disturbs me.
I think I understand what you're saying, but I also think you should be careful about how you word it. You make it sound as though Robert was doing something bad, but that's not true. I have *nobody to blame but myself* for only getting to four rounds in my match with Robert.
quote:
2.) Guy mentioned that he should have dropped after losing 1 match and being 2-1. Is this something that we really want to see in big tournaments? I am *NOT* saying that Guy did anything wrong (or would have been wrong to drop), but if 1 loss really creates a situation where it doesn't make sense to continue, why don't we go to single elimination in these tournaments? I have not really thought this whole subject through in detail, but seeing someone as good as Guf say he thought he should have dropped after 1 round makes me cringe a bit.
There were several top caliber players who were 2-1 at that same time, and they decided to stay in.
However, I'm not a top caliber player*. That's one of the reasons I was thinking of dropping. The other reason was that I knew the other tournament was starting. I knew I could end up getting more matches played that day by going into the second tournament.
*I may be one of the ~10 DDM best players in the Bay Area, which allows me to do pretty well in local events. However, if I play in a tournament where there are 2-4 times as many players who are better than me, it's that much harder to make top 4. | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 2:41 PM |
| Well in some ways dual-HGBs not making a showing and considering how many there were tells me it's as predictable and reliable as most people thought. A 5 activation warband should have issues from the get go as well. Such as is the game.
Granted it was Dagni so it's someone who knows what they are doing. But as far as Chraals going all the way I'm somewhat surprised, especially if people knew they would be there and it's obvious they did with all the Warrior Skeletons floating around. Maybe I'm more shocked that no one played an Efreeti at all as well and that no LG made it anywhere to the reporting stage. I guess the meta over in Cali is a bit typically evil heavy compared to other places. I'm anxious to read what Dagni has to report.
R~ | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 04/09/2006 3:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
1.) It seemed that, whether intentionally or not, Robert Hatch was benefiting from slow play in the tournament. That disturbs me.
I think I understand what you're saying, but I also think you should be careful about how you word it. You make it sound as though Robert was doing something bad, but that's not true. I have *nobody to blame but myself* for only getting to four rounds in my match with Robert.
I'm not saying that Robert (or you) intentionally did something bad. I'm saying that, whether intentionally or not, the slow pace of the game was to the benefit of a 'Chraal denial band' (as you indirectly described the band in your first post). Accordingly, something bad did occur. It seems like Robert was given a benefit by the slow pace of the game.
I am having trouble understanding why the game was so slow. We had two very experienced players. Both were playing on their preselected and prepared map. Both were playing variants on well known warbands. All three of those things point towards a match going faster. When such a match only reaches four rounds, and that limited number of rounds tends to benefit certain types of warbands, REGARDLESS OF THE INTENT OF THE PLAYERS, it seems like there is a problem that needs to be fixed. As I've played warbands very similar to both of those warbands, and in those matches I had no trouble reaching a conclusion during the time allotted, I am not convinced that the figures involved were the culprit. I just don't know what was... | |
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alepulp
Underboss
1538 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 04/09/2006 3:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
@alepulp: The Warrior Skeletons were the right picks given the matchups I expected to face. They're critical for blocking Chraals, and they can't wreck your activation control the way Kobold Miners do.
I also disagree about luck. I had normal luck the whole tournament. The only instance of a short run of bad luck were the four-for-four Chraal hits in the match against Dagni, and that was recoverable; I still got onto his Blackguard. His Chraals hit the expected number of times overal.
Luck was irrelevant. Everything that I am disappointed about (which isn't a lot, really) can ultimately be blamed on a bad decision on my part.
Although I understand the "immune cold" argument and the blocking ability, you have some maths to contend with:
In the first round you're likely to get 0 VPs - the opponent is likely to get 10. Once the Chraals are in on the skeletons, they're likely to be hit for enough damage to die from normal damage - now you've given away 9 pts in fodder and you've still not had the breath weapons. Those 19 pts can be essential. Activation control is now lost also...
The Skeletons are unable to block the bridge in round 1 on the outpost (only the Naga and the DMM can do that - neither of which are a good idea). Suddenly you could be faced with a HGB or Chraal on your side and you're contending with point denial. Something that your warband should be expert at...
Gamers will disagree - so I'll only say that in my experience I'd prefer to get the early points rather than chase the game all the way. Especially against HGBs and Chraals. It forces the HHs to be way too aggressive. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 3:57 PM |
| I completely see (and have seen) Guy's observation (and ownership of the "problem"). Ive had the pleasure of getting my butt handed to me by some of the best players in the game. Some of them are what I refer to as "deliberate". They play carefully and some feel "too slowly".. there have even been accusations of stalling. But my observations are that they arent taking more time than neccessary. they are simply checking every possibility and playing the best game they can.
My best advice. Play your game and if you feel they are stalling (unneccessarily taking extra time to get closer to the time limit), call the judge and have them make a determination. Its the judges job, not yours, to decide if your opponent is stalling or simply plays slower than you do.
I play fairly quickly.. 4 of my 5 matches at the NEO were done between 16 and 22 minutes. but Ive played against people who have said that I was stalling. Its all relative. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 4:31 PM |
| I'm inclined to agree that the Warrior Skeletons are pretty useless. Back when 12 figure format was around there'd be a swarm of them which would create a much larger hindrance. A Chraal breath weapon didn't pose much of a threat when a field of immune to cold critters was out there things were very different. When you're only using 3 of them it takes little effort to take them down. I'd have gone with the Kobold Miners as well. Mostly because there will be plenty of times that you don't get your map and they can possibly sit far from a battle and gain points for you and as said the one or two round they live long enough to get any on Drow Outpost can be an advantage as well. Pretty much every 3 point critter is going to die badly anyway. Might as well make it so they don't get points for them and give yourself a chance to get some victory points early on.
R~ | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 4:55 PM |
| | Well, at least we've progressed enough on the time format that instead of being the average for a 1 hour match, a 4 round match is considered unacceptably slow. | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2024 Posts
Portland OR
| | 04/09/2006 4:59 PM |
| The "slow game" is disturbing...in each tourny i've played in i think the least rounds i've ever played was and that was because of a late start...i've actually played a 12 round game before too and taht was in the old format...i think there comes a certain point where you just have to say "them chralls are gonna get me eventually" and go at it as best you can...i think this might be guys regret, that he didn't just go for it...still a bit disturbing though...
as far as kobolds vs skelts...i have to go with the kobolds almost every time... chralls are fast enough and efficient enough to take out a few skelts...i think 4 is a min on them and you just don't see that these days...kobolds in 2-3 give you the early lead and give you a little of that point denial that those chralls enjoyed...
Just for our own educations...what would be your variants of your triple h band? | |
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 5:04 PM |
| | Yeah. I am traditionally a fast player, but I have yet to have a game that didn't finish before time since the switch to 8 figures and maps unless I was actively training someone. Four rounds is unacceptable. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
United States
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Shadow_Fox
Underboss
1751 Posts
Litchfield, MN
| | 04/09/2006 6:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
I also disagree about luck. I had normal luck the whole tournament. The only instance of a short run of bad luck were the four-for-four Chraal hits in the match against Dagni, and that was recoverable; I still got onto his Blackguard. His Chraals hit the expected number of times overal.
Luck was irrelevant. Everything that I am disappointed about (which isn't a lot, really) can ultimately be blamed on a bad decision on my part.
I yield to your opinion on the matter. I still feel you played very well regardless. | |
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 6:41 PM |
| First, let me say this about slow play.
Some bands take more thought. This is an inherent part of the creature's statistics. Seriously. (For those that have run mulitple Chraal bands, or played with againts drider bands) you know what I mean. I would also now put forward the idea that less activations DOES NOT speed up a chraal band. Quite the contrary. In the old days, you could be certain that you would have enough activations to shield your commander. Now, optimal use of the chraal requires the cycling in and out of protected positions. This has to happen in a certain order, and is dramatically impacted by your opponents moves.
I timed several moves in the finals during rounds 3-5. Michael Derry was averaging 40 seconds per turn, Robert Hatch just over 50.
At one time Robert took 3 minutes to move two figures. However, on the very next Move, Michael also took 3 minutes (just over, in fact).
In Michael's defense, part of this time was taking notes - but - time is time, you use it as you see fit.
I see Guy's comparison to the Drider. This time element is similar for any figure whtich requires commander. My take would be to simply not put these types of units into the game any more (ie. at the design level, i think requires commander is a detrimental mechanic to game play).
With respect to the final game - only 5 rounds were played, but 200 points were hit at about 59:50, so, its tough to blame slow play in the last match. Indeed, Robert's die was hot, while Michael's was not. And this was really what changed the game.
Am I suggesting that the match was won on die rolls? Absolutley. because with good players, a little luck at any point can quickly be leveraged into a game win. And so when Guy talks about bad luck at one point in his Match with Robert, I think there is an underestimation of the impact on the game. It may not have been unrecoverable - but it is highly improbable that one might recover at that time.
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Let it be. | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 7:38 PM |
| I was accused of slow playing/stalling last week (after I left the room), apparently my opponent didn't feel 9+ rounds was sufficient.
I can only imagine 4 rounds. | |
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Shadow_Fox
Underboss
1751 Posts
Litchfield, MN
| | 04/09/2006 7:56 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Shadow_Fox
quote:
Originally posted by guyf
IMO, four rounds is an unreasonably low number of rounds to play. All of my other matches had considerably more rounds than that. IMO, I'm no longer sure Chraal denial warbands should remain a legit/legal warband concept in tournament play. I *strongly* object to the fact that they make both players extremeley cagey. IMO, this was Drider Sorcerer level of slow. (I didn't see the 2005 constructed championships, so I don't have any first-hand experience as to whether this same kind of problem occurred there.) Anyway...
Wow... these are strong words, and from Guy no less. Strong implications there.
I need to clarify what I meant in the quote above. I was speaking about the future of the Chrall. Having Guy compare the Chrall to the Drider Sorcerer has strong implications for the fate of the Chrall. I was not speaking of implications of stalling. Sorry for any confusion this may have caused. | |
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Shadow_Fox
Underboss
1751 Posts
Litchfield, MN
| | 04/09/2006 8:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tried
Am I suggesting that the match was won on die rolls? Absolutley. because with good players, a little luck at any point can quickly be leveraged into a game win. And so when Guy talks about bad luck at one point in his Match with Robert, I think there is an underestimation of the impact on the game. It may not have been unrecoverable - but it is highly improbable that one might recover at that time.
I agree with this assessment. There are critical focal points in each game where the importance of a die roll is magnified. Its personal preferance as to how you view "luck". | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 04/09/2006 8:45 PM |
| I get people looking at their watch as well when I roll my Archmage. The archmage isn't much different than the commander for Chrall's. Your relying on him to put you in a position to win the match.
I know I get antsy when I'm trying to go through all the variations, and it has at time caused me to make silly moves, simply because I want to get my move done...
Keep the reports coming though, especially Steven... lets hear about the Balista!
Pat E | |
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