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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
    
United States
 | | 05/14/2006 12:19 AM |
| Well, I was going to post a long tournament report--and I still might. But I have to get this off my chest.
Alex (my son, with the NOSTy band), was 5-1 and kicking butt. His 7th opponent cheated. There, I said it. He made illegal moves and he ended up winning. Alex took 6th at the event--no qualifier.
Now, before this gets hot, and the post gets locked, and I get banned from maxminis, let me explain.
Alex knew that the move was illegal. It was a big deal, because Alex specifically moved his pieces to avoid being attacked. Alex told his opponent that the move couldn't be played. Alex called a judge over.The judge, as far as I (and many others at the event) could tell, didn't know the rules. The judge sided with Alex's opponent (it probably doesn't help that Alex is 16 and is often very forgiving in the name of sportsmanship). I'll describe the move later, and explain why it, quite honestly, made the difference in the game. Remember, he was 5-1 in a very tough field, and was doing great.
I, and others who would have had a stern discussion with the judge, were busy with our own games at the time, in other rooms. We didn't know this happened until the match was over.
The judge's incompetence (there, I said it again), very likely cost my son the qualifier, pure and simple. And, it wasn't just that judgment. Alex called his opponent on other calls too, and the judge made the wrong call in those cases as well.
Alex doesn't cheat. He knows the rules (far better than the judge did). People from maxminis meet us at events and tell me about how impressed they are with not just what a good player he is, but with how friendly a competitor he is, how much of a sport he is.
I am not happy with DCI or Wizards. At all.
The store manager stopped us in the parking lot and apologized. The judge, before we left, told Alex he was sorry.
A fat lot of good that does for him.
Oh, and the NOST was a Mephling Pyromancer. A Marut with F8 is a thing of beauty. There you go, it's out there. The NOST band I was talking about came in 6th in a field of 39, among some VERY good players and some excellent bands. And, he quite likely would have come in 2nd instead of 6th, had the judge known the rules.
Finally, I'm not blaming the other player. But it is true that he made moves that weren't legal and quite likely ended up winning as a result. I played against him myself (as did the third person who drove up there with me). He tried making some illegal moves against me too, but I chalked it up to nerves, or not knowing the rules. He beat me fair. The third person who was with us said that this other player didn't attempt any illegal moves against him. However, this other friend of mine did tell this other player to watch his time spent on moves after I explained that, in my game against him, the first round lasted 14 minutes. (And it wasn't because I was playing slow.)
Oh, I was 4-1 before I myself faced Alex. He put me in my place. (It's not so bad losing to your son at one of these things--it's a killer to see your son get knocked down and out, from qualifying for nationals no less, not because of excellent play, or a bad die roll, but because the judge didn't know the rules.)
I will be writing to DCI and Wizards about this.
I won't be naming this other player--that's below the belt; if he wishes to make himself known, that's no problem. I played against (and spoke to) several other people at the event that are friends of this player. I openly invite any and all of them to post here (more than one recognized my username and so know me through this community).
The maxminis community, if it's anything, is a place to get this kind of stuff out in the open, in a fair environment.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
United States
| | 05/14/2006 12:37 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
So, let's hear it -- what were the illegal moves? What was the situation?
I'll have my son write everything up, and provide a full explanation in the morning. (I got up 15 hours ago to go to this event, and just got back and am exhausted.)
Here is an ebbreviation of the two that I know about for sure:
1) A Warforged Bodyguard cannot take the damage that another piece takes if that other piece takes damage from a fireball.
2) An Aspect of Kord isn't incorporeal (last I checked) and so cannot go through the corners of walls.
(Yes, really.)
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 12:40 AM |
| *sigh*
Sad.
And scary.
This is the sort of thing that terrifies me about going to events in which the judges are either new or don't play at all. (No worries, Zaukrie, I have utmost faith in your judging abilities. [:)]) | |
My H/W list is not current...
Trade Reference List
OLD Trade references (191) | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 12:43 AM |
| Well this brings up an interesting question of experienced judging being important in these situations. For the level of qualifiers I would say that the person who is the judge should have a certain level of knowledge for judging qualifiers that are for a world championship. I know that our judge locally isn't as well versed in the rules as myself and on occasion asks me rules questions when he's playing. I would say he knows more than the judge you are describing though by far.
It's unfortunate that your son lost because of a moron judge. I'd be rather pissed myself if I were you and would file a solid complaint to WotC in the regard of this situation. There's really not much more you can do. Maybe with your complaint and a possible petition to force WotC to require a judging test for the judges something will be done to make sure this situation doesn't occur again.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
United States
| | 05/14/2006 12:43 AM |
| By the way, there were a lot of maxminis people there. And I had a great time (I was 4-1 there briefly, and was having an even greater time before I ended up 4-3, but that's an aside).
I will be posting photos (including one of Alex holding DJ-Chuckles' box that had the word NOST on it in bright red letters).
And, there was a match between DJ-Chuckles and myself (how ironic, eh?), that got all screwed up. I ended up with the win, but we both made some important mistakes in keeping track of things and so the win didn't make me feel good. I told him that if we both made the top 4, I'd concede to him because all I wanted was to qualify (I already have a badge, and GenCon is a 4-hour drive for me). But, neither of us made it, and so I cannot demonstrate that I would have done it. Still, it was nice to see him there (he drove a LOT farther than I did--I swear he played a few games in his sleep there), and it was good to sit down and play a game against him.
Oh, EldritchSoul was the one would pointed out one of our errors (actually, my error, in this case), and I told him I'd make a public posting of it. I'll write up this one tomorrow too.
If I don't post all this stuff Sunday, it's because Sunday is Mother's Day, and my son and I had fun and played games all day Saturday and didn't very well get ready for Mother's Day, and we might just be licking our Mother's-Day-Guilt-Induced wounds tomorrow. If I don't post much tomorrow, it's not that I'm holding out on you guys, it's that I am paying attention to my wife. [:)]
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Kevizoid
Sergeant
373 Posts
Southern California
| | 05/14/2006 12:51 AM |
| Yes, our tourny's tend to not have judging problems since we have MANY rules masters running around playing...and when we mix with the NoCal group we get the master rules guy :P
Sorry to hear that your son lost because of a bad ruling...i feel for him...us 16 year olds got to stick together and own all the old farts! | |
SoCal Colluder | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 12:53 AM |
| | Sorry to hear that Dave. You did kind of name names on it though through the band. It does suck bad, hate to see it happen. Sounds like Alex had his band firing on all cylinders there. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Aravis
Underboss
1155 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 1:01 AM |
| | I am glad we are blessed with Guyf. ACK! I've been GuyF'd! | |
Welcome to Eternal Crack...
"Corn is no place for a mighty warrior!"
Champion of the Frost Salamander | |
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Neidhart
Skirmisher
37 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 1:10 AM |
| Dave,
I played your son in the first round and lost to him. I am one of the people that came up to you to tell you what a good sportsman that he was. Even though I lost it was a very enjoyable game and he was an excellent player. I am very sorry to hear about that problem that you mention here, I really did not know that that had occurred.
Also, regarding the judging. That judge also ruled against my son, who is 13, but according to my son it did not affect the outcome of the game thankfully. The specific ruling was that a gith monk could not use stunning attack and unavoidable strike on an attack of opportunity but of course you can do that. I later cleared up that ruling with him, but it was a wrong ruling.
Anyways, was very nice meeting you and your son and once again I am sorry to hear about that incident.
Terry | |
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Helzapoppn
Warrior
258 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 1:11 AM |
| Still not good at connecting people with screen names. Didn't even realize you were there.
I think I know who you're talking about, and will confirm that he plays very slowly (I hit him with a slow-play warning just a week ago). At...oh, yes, it's 1:00 a.m....Saturday's event, he lost in the semifinals to the eventual winner.
And I can confirm that the judge could have been better-versed in the DDM rules, as a questionable call (in my favor) during my seventh-round game could have made the difference between me bring 4-3 or 3-4.
Edit: Terry nailed it as far as the judge's call in my final match against his son -- who is a great kid, excellent sport and getting better at DDM every day. It was a high-risk move on my part with a 50-50 shot of working even if the judge had ruled correctly.
For all that, I had a great time. | |
Champion of Iconics & the Apparatus of Kwalish (Constructs with Drivers? Brilliant!)
Dungeons of Dread Called Shot: Yeah, right | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 1:12 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Neidhart
Dave,
I played your son in the first round and lost to him. I am one of the people that came up to you to tell you what a good sportsman that he was. Even though I lost it was a very enjoyable game and he was an excellent player. I am very sorry to hear about that problem that you mention here, I really did not know that that had occurred.
Also, regarding the judging. That judge also ruled against my son, who is 13, but according to my son it did not affect the outcome of the game thankfully. The specific ruling was that a gith monk could not use stunning attack and unavoidable strike on an attack of opportunity but of course you can do that. I later cleared up that ruling with him, but it was a wrong ruling.
Anyways, was very nice meeting you and your son and once again I am sorry to hear about that incident.
Terry
Wow that is too far off rulings. Very sad. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 1:22 AM |
| Seriously if there are rulings like this I'd complain. It sounds like this loser made a ton of bad rulings if there was only two listed here so far I can only imagine he'd make a lot more. WE NEED JUDGES THAT HAVE A CLUE!!!
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 3:29 AM |
| I'm glad I haven't encountered a problem with judging yet of this magnitude. The only "big" tournament I've been in had bshugg and Temperance judging, and they know their stuff.
In situations like this, it would be nice to have 2 judges that can confer, but I know how hard it can be to get 1.
I'm still not even sure how somone could make the Fireball/bodyguard ruling. A quick read of the card should be pretty clear as to what he can do in regards to spell and non-attack special abilities. If the decision was a bad one around some of the oddball aspects of the Bodyguard that would be one thing, but the card is fairly clear that only ATTACKS can be body-guarded away. | |
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Wish
Sergeant
399 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 5:25 AM |
| Even better than judges who know the rules would be a rule book that knows the rules. A lot of this could be avoided if one could simply pick up the rule book, flip to the index, and find your answer in 2 minutes. Unfortunately, one must have the rule book, the tournament floor rules (both general and specific), and either hundreds of pages of printouts or a laptop with web access to get all of the rules. Then, among all of that, one has to remember in which thread or book, or floor rules document, or website a specific rule is in if one wants to reference it. If you don't have it memorized, doing so in a timely manner while a tournament is running, that's quite difficult.
This isn't a slam on Guy at all - I'd much rather have the rules and clarifications than not. It's just that I wish there was a more consistent way to organize and reference the rules. | | | |
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HidesFromHurricanes
Warrior
289 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 6:49 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
Alex knew that the move was illegal. It was a big deal, because Alex specifically moved his pieces to avoid being attacked. Alex told his opponent that the move couldn't be played. Alex called a judge over.The judge, as far as I (and many others at the event) could tell, didn't know the rules. The judge sided with Alex's opponent (it probably doesn't help that Alex is 16 and is often very forgiving in the name of sportsmanship). I'll describe the move later, and explain why it, quite honestly, made the difference in the game. Remember, he was 5-1 in a very tough field, and was doing great.
First let me compliment you on the job you've done raising a fine game player. From your report, he showed a lot of poise in a highly stressful situation. You are justifiable proud of his performance.
My other observation is that age discrimnation does seem to rear its head in the DDM community. I know my son (14) feels nervous sometimes when all the adults are cheering on the other opponent, just because he's the kid. Thinking back to myself at that age, I was far more focussed on game playing, being able to forsee moves, having clever strategies, etc. Maybe this is not true in this case, but we need to be aware of how we deal with our young players. | |
Champion of Savage Bard (Unearthed Arcana: Bard Variant)
Bloodwars Called shot (vindicated) Demonic Gnoll Adept/Priestess
Old Jagermonster Saying: Any Plan vere you luz your hat iz a BAD Plan. | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3930 Posts
USA
| | 05/14/2006 7:44 AM |
| Sorry to hear about the bad chain of events and judging. [:(!]
It is sad to hear about such poor judging and I feel for your son. Its hard enough to win games versus a strong field of opponents and the randomness of dice rolls, but getting the shaft from a judge is just not right.
At the Toronto Qualifier we had very good judges who were available for every on going match and made quick calls when called upon.
Are there any DCI of WotC requirements for being a judge? If not, there should be.
[:(]
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
| | 05/14/2006 7:56 AM |
| I love rules. And I absolutely detest it when people don't follow them, or don't know them when they are required to for their position. I have run into this in some local tournaments, but it scares me that they would have problems like this at qualifiers. Though, there was one situation that popped up at the grinder last year where i thought the judge was off the rocker. I figured I was just wrong, but this has me wondering.
One thing my buddy and I have found useful is printing out guy's clarifications and an online rule book and indexing it. Pain i nthe butt, but you can point out stuff that way. | |
Looking to buy some figures? Chances are I may have them!! Check here!!
My Reference Thread | My Warbands | My Ebay Auctions | My Qualifier Warband
Champion of Spellswords
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Sirohk
Commander
3930 Posts
USA
| | 05/14/2006 8:20 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nycfarmkid
I love rules. And I absolutely detest it when people don't follow them, or don't know them when they are required to for their position. I have run into this in some local tournaments, but it scares me that they would have problems like this at qualifiers. Though, there was one situation that popped up at the grinder last year where i thought the judge was off the rocker. I figured I was just wrong, but this has me wondering.
One thing my buddy and I have found useful is printing out guy's clarifications and an online rule book and indexing it. Pain i nthe butt, but you can point out stuff that way.
I strongly agree. [^]
I always have a copy of the latest rules, guy's clarifications and such, WotC DDM FAQ, DCI floor rules, and errata with me (near at hand for such situations) in a 3 ring binder. Mostly indexed where possible for quick reference. A judge with a poor understanding of the rules can't argue with printed rules / rulings. Well, maybe not if they are very stubborn and will not listen to reason. [:(]
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10446 Posts
United States
| | 05/14/2006 8:36 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
Sorry to hear that Dave. You did kind of name names on it though through the band. It does suck bad, hate to see it happen. Sounds like Alex had his band firing on all cylinders there.
Yeah, I wasn't quite sure how to go about this. In order to describe the nature of the ruling error, I kinda had to do that. But, it does require that someone actually take the time to look around and go hunting for the information himself.
Thanks, by the way, to the others who've posted thus far.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 8:50 AM |
| I'm really sorry to hear that, Dave. I was thrilled to see your son doing so well through the tough competition. I wish I would have known about the judging situation in advance. I would have volunteered. (Especially if I had known how I would be playing that day.)
Well, congratulations to Alex for making it that far in a tough field. It's really too bad that that's how it ended up. | |
Champion of the Rakshasa. Check out my Mini Terrain Maker, or my new Dungeon Map Maker (under development). | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 9:53 AM |
| They are going to have a judges test for Dreamblade... I can't understand why they haven't had one for DDM. Anyone can and should be able to be the judge for a local sanctioned game, but a qualifier should have QUALIFIED judges...
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Fundin Strongarm
Sneak
61 Posts
Windsor, Ontario, Canada
| | 05/14/2006 10:25 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
So, let's hear it -- what were the illegal moves? What was the situation?
I'll have my son write everything up, and provide a full explanation in the morning. (I got up 15 hours ago to go to this event, and just got back and am exhausted.)
Here is an ebbreviation of the two that I know about for sure:
1) A Warforged Bodyguard cannot take the damage that another piece takes if that other piece takes damage from a fireball.
2) An Aspect of Kord isn't incorporeal (last I checked) and so cannot go through the corners of walls.
(Yes, really.)
Dave
I know the player of which you speak. He beat me fair and square a round or two earlier (dumb Death Slaads running away!). However, he did try the trick with the Bodyguard on Chaos Hammer damage. I pointed out it only works on damage from attacks and he corrected the damage to the figures involved. He new the rule.
His style of picking up pieces and putting them in their new location is annoying as well because it's hard to tell if he moved properly. I'm pretty sure he did this correctly, though.
As for the judge, didn't he ruled incorrectly on whether Incorporeal attacks on another Incorporeal have to roll for Incorporeal? | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 10:55 AM |
| Sounds like this judge didn't know squat about the game. If this is how bad any of the other qualifiers are judged I question the fairness of them.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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Chairman7w
Sergeant
484 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 11:13 AM |
| Vrecknidj, I'm sorry man, that sucks. Sounds like your son is a great player and it's a shame he got screwed like that. Man, that bites.
PS - Cool NOST too, I never considered that! | |
Dr. Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "Eta...
Jayne: Well don't say it!
Zoë: It only works on her, Jayne. | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1366 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 11:18 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fundin Strongarm
I know the player of which you speak. He beat me fair and square a round or two earlier (dumb Death Slaads running away!). However, he did try the trick with the Bodyguard on Chaos Hammer damage. I pointed out it only works on damage from attacks and he corrected the damage to the figures involved. He new the rule.
His style of picking up pieces and putting them in their new location is annoying as well because it's hard to tell if he moved properly. I'm pretty sure he did this correctly, though.
As for the judge, didn't he ruled incorrectly on whether Incorporeal attacks on another Incorporeal have to roll for Incorporeal?
Okay, that's disturbing. If this person knew the rule, then he was cheating, plain and simple. Also, from the floor rules:
"Start Location: When counting out movement for a miniature, players should leave the miniature in its starting place until its final position is chosen. Alternately, players may mark the starting location of a miniature with a token." | | | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1366 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 11:36 AM |
| | It would probably open a huge can of worms to do so, but I'd like to see Dave's son get an invite to the championship in response to this judging catastrophe. | | | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 11:39 AM |
| Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but does this surprise anyone if he did take advantage of the judge? I mean look around, everyone is trying to get an edge. Secret warbands, collusion, etc. has become the norm. When guys touted and touting themselves as "top players" are doing things that many consider "pushing the envelope" of fairness (in the minds of many others), does it surprise anyone IF (and I'm not saying the player specifically did, but IF) they play the judge like you play an Umpire in baseball? If he's calling the low & outside strike, don't you keep pitching there?
I'll be the first to say I disagree with the practice and it does anger me IF it was intentional. Unfortunately, it wouldn't surprise me if it was. That's what happens when we take this stuff too seriously and place so much importance on it. While this is a big step in a bad direction (I would guess I'm among the almost unanimous field in this opinion), again, it wouldn't surprise me.
Very cool warband too. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1366 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 11:43 AM |
| | No, it doesn't surprise me that someone may have intentionally cheated. If it can be shown that this person intentionally cheated, then he shouldn't be surprised regarding the consequences. Either way, the issue of competent judging remains. | | | |
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Neidhart
Skirmisher
37 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 12:11 PM |
| This was indeed a controversial qualifier to say the least. I agree that perhaps Alex should receive an invite.
Now I hate to further this controversy because all in all I did have a controversial free day and it was enjoyable meeting all kinds of new people, but.....
I was looking at the warbands and I noticed one that was exactly the same as one that I had played last week except for one piece. There was a small difference between that one and mine, the difference being 3 points. Now my warband had added up to exactly 200 points, so in doing the math this one was 3 points over. I did not play against this person but I did see his warband and can confirm that it is posted correctly. I do not want to accuse anyone of any wrong doing so I will leave it at that.
With respect to ALL of the controversy, I wonder if WOTC would entertain doing a second MI qualifier?
Terry | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 12:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wish
Even better than judges who know the rules would be a rule book that knows the rules. A lot of this could be avoided if one could simply pick up the rule book, flip to the index, and find your answer in 2 minutes. Unfortunately, one must have the rule book, the tournament floor rules (both general and specific), and either hundreds of pages of printouts or a laptop with web access to get all of the rules. Then, among all of that, one has to remember in which thread or book, or floor rules document, or website a specific rule is in if one wants to reference it. If you don't have it memorized, doing so in a timely manner while a tournament is running, that's quite difficult.
This isn't a slam on Guy at all - I'd much rather have the rules and clarifications than not. It's just that I wish there was a more consistent way to organize and reference the rules.
The rules in question only require the card and a rulebook. SO while I appreciate your point, and agree, in this case it wouldn't have helped at all.
Movement and cornering walls is in the rulebook we all got with starters and the Bodyguard ony taking damage from attacks is right on his card. You can even flip to glossary entry for "Attack" to further clarify the point.
If he did this in an earlier game and was called out on it, then it was blantant cheating. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 12:28 PM |
| I say we hunt him down and burn him at the stake! [}:)]
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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Avatar of the Tank
Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 05/14/2006 12:34 PM |
| I'm not trying to defend the Judge here ok. I've judged many a game and sometimes I make a mistake that costs a player a higher placement(which is my bad). If the player disagrees with my judgement, I double check all the rules (rules, Guys clair, floor rules, FAQ, ect..) to see if I can find it. I also ask the better players in the area what there opinion on the ruling is. Sometimes a player has seen Guy make a ruling on WotC boards that has yet to make his clairification page.
There is very difficult to know every little rule. Your bodyguard/fireball example is one I did not know[:I]. THe AoK cutting the corning is INEXCUSIBLE (IMH).
I know the qualifiers are higher stress (because of the rewards) and I also know some players will take advantage of younger players(which is not right) or even the rules to get an edge.
I'm sorry the tourney turned out less than desired (because of judge tanting) for your family. I know the judge for the MN qualifier is well versed and will use his peers if neccessary to make the correct ruling.
I do think there should be some sort of level system for DDM judges. Kind of like MtG. Anyone can be a level 1 slucka (like me) and run normal events and pre-release. But when it comes to Qualifiers, it should be a more versed judge (say lv2 of higher).
BTW-I do like your Son's MP tech for the LG. Speed 8 flying Marut is just down right nasty.
Hopefully you two can hit another qualifier or the grinder.
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They just don't know what's good in life...Conan, tell them what is good in life.
To rip the boosters. To count the minis spilled out before you, and to hear the indifference of the women... | |
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alepulp
Underboss
1538 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 05/14/2006 12:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Neidhart
I was looking at the warbands and I noticed one that was exactly the same as one that I had played last week except for one piece. There was a small difference between that one and mine, the difference being 3 points. Now my warband had added up to exactly 200 points, so in doing the math this one was 3 points over. I did not play against this person but I did see his warband and can confirm that it is posted correctly. I do not want to accuse anyone of any wrong doing so I will leave it at that.
Terry
At the EU Championships each warband was entered into Bifur's warband generator (a slight enhancement on the one that is online - the only difference being that there is a reporting mechanism for all warbands in the database). This was exactly for this purpose - to ensure that all warbands were legal in every way. Also so that I could post the warbands online as soon as the games started. I suggest that, with the recent two qualifiers in mind that had warbands over the 200pt cost, this should be adopted everywhere. If there's interest - I'll release a separate version of Bifur with the reporting mechanism included. Let me know!
This is the way we did it:
First they had to have their warband in a written format - I entered it into Bifur - once complete and confirmed, they could enter into DCI Reporter by FB3. | |
One of these days WoTC will update their tournament page when I'm in the top 5... they never seem to do when I'm in that bracket :(
My Collection My DDM Website And My Trade Refs Be a part of the UK DDM Forum
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 12:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fundin Strongarm
I know the player of which you speak. He beat me fair and square a round or two earlier (dumb Death Slaads running away!). However, he did try the trick with the Bodyguard on Chaos Hammer damage. I pointed out it only works on damage from attacks and he corrected the damage to the figures involved. He new the rule.
Wow, if that actually happened, that's so not cool. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 12:57 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by alepulp
quote:
Originally posted by Neidhart
I was looking at the warbands and I noticed one that was exactly the same as one that I had played last week except for one piece. There was a small difference between that one and mine, the difference being 3 points. Now my warband had added up to exactly 200 points, so in doing the math this one was 3 points over. I did not play against this person but I did see his warband and can confirm that it is posted correctly. I do not want to accuse anyone of any wrong doing so I will leave it at that.
Terry
At the EU Championships each warband was entered into Bifur's warband generator (a slight enhancement on the one that is online - the only difference being that there is a reporting mechanism for all warbands in the database). This was exactly for this purpose - to ensure that all warbands were legal in every way. Also so that I could post the warbands online as soon as the games started. I suggest that, with the recent two qualifiers in mind that had warbands over the 200pt cost, this should be adopted everywhere. If there's interest - I'll release a separate version of Bifur with the reporting mechanism included. Let me know!
This is the way we did it:
First they had to have their warband in a written format - I entered it into Bifur - once complete and confirmed, they could enter into DCI Reporter by FB3.
That'd be very cool just to have either way. I've often wished I could make some reports or listings of my own warbands not just those at a tourney. It would be the easiest way to make sure they are right on points.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1833 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 1:18 PM |
| If its the same person that is being referred to, that person got a delay of game warning and an illegal warband ruling after the third round the week before.
Nothing is more detrimental to the tournament mini scene that a cheat, especially at a large event that doesn't have an experienced judge. One player can drive away dozens of others very quickly. I will look into this matter among the Michigan players. If you have any information on the individuals involved please email me and I will get in contact with organized play. I can't promise anything at all, but this sort of behavior must be tracked and recorded to eliminate the stinkers.
I'm truly sorry that I couldn't be there to assist in rulings. [:(]
I think everyone there would of been comfortable with me making rulings in games I wasn't involved in. Heck if I knew how bad it was I would of dropped no matter what my record was to take over judging. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
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dj-chuckles
Underboss
2455 Posts
The State that invented Spam!
| | 05/14/2006 1:40 PM |
| I seen the illegeal move and commented that it couldn't happen. It fell on deaf ears. Charging in a mithral mine.
I'm sorry I probably will get suspended for this but that player was a complete overall jerk and very unsportsman like. So were some of the people he showed up with. I could not believe his attitude towards the people he played and the fact he tried to cheat with the same rules more than once. I am flagging this person in an appeal to DCI.
EDIT: I suggest your son do the same. | |
Posted By WakeXX on 09/25/2006 4:49 AM OMG DJ!This has to be the spammiest spam thread ever! 
Member of Team Game-Rocket.netScry into Blood War | My Trade Thread | My Reference Thread| Vindicated Champion of the Dragon Rider & Dracolich | New Champion of Cadderly | | |
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Shivan Darkeyes
Warrior
266 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 2:07 PM |
| I also attended this tournament. I can say that the judge made several rulings that showed that he had no idea what was going on examples include:
1.) Ruling that Summoned Creatures do NOT score victory points when they are killed if the summoner rather than the piece itself is killed.
2.) Ruling that things rout through teleporters on the teleport temple map.
Another questionable ruling that I saw that showed how insecure the judge was, was at the end of round 3. A player had only a Balor left to move with 2 minutes left in the round. He declared an attack on an Orc Champ or some other piece that is pretty inconsequential. Then he proceeded to sit and wait to roll the die on the first attack. His opponent called the judge over to watch for stalling. The judge sat and watched the match and the other guy still sat their and didn't roll the die. The opponent asked him if he was thinking about moving the piece and the other guy didn't say anything. The opponent verbally expressed that it would be insane if they didn't get another round in because he was just waiting to roll the die until time was called. The judge then called time and said that the player wasn't stalling since it was a "hard move" to make. The opponent threw a fit and claimed that it was totally crazy that they shouldn't get another round. After taking a lot of pressure from the obviously upset player the judge then reversed his ruling and gave them another round of play. I'm not sure what the correct thing to do is here, I think they probably should have gotten another round, but the judge ruling one way then changing his mind and ruling the other way shows his lack of experience and inability to take the heat.
All of this combined with my horrible choice of warbands (Hill Giant Barbarians) made the tournament kind of stressful and took away from the experience despite some of the wonderful people there.
This all being said, the judge was a nice guy- he just had NO BUSINESS AT ALL judging a high level event.
I can't speak to the fiasco regarding cheating since I left very quickly after beating my 7th round opponent since my friends had dropped from the tournament round 5 and were tired and wanted to go home, but I can speak to the quality, or lack there-of, of judging. | |
13th Place at the 2005 DDM Championship in GenCon | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 2:26 PM |
| That's horrible! Is anyone making note of all these screwups? Seriously we need to make a list and sign a petition to make sure judges for these things are not retards.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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